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paul cowley

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A necessity...grass needs water.

I'm tired...so I will nominate Diamante Dunes!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2011, 08:01:19 AM »
I'll nominate Western Turnpike, to keep up the Cowley connection. I love watching the fish watching me looking for my ball.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Ryan Farrow

Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2011, 08:09:29 AM »
Google search "Painting" and "lake". Landscape painters get it.... architects do not. There are a few pretty simple rules to do it right, but it never happens and they always look like crap! IMO the best lakes are the ones at Oakmont!


Bill_McBride

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Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2011, 02:57:12 PM »
Augusta is pretty nice. 

Greg Tallman

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Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2011, 04:14:33 PM »
A necessity...grass needs water.

I'm tired...so I will nominate Diamante Dunes!

Sorry Paul, One cannot nomninate their own work.  ;)

Beyond that it is a feature that few like. I happen to agree but I have the benefit of knowing the effort that went into making it seem more natural and in harmony with the surrounding environment.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2011, 04:29:33 PM »
I guess whoever does ones that appear natural did a pretty good job.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 04:53:12 PM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2011, 04:29:53 PM »
How many irrigation ponds are not manmade?  

Bill,
I think ANGC doesn't use the pond for irrigation....

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2011, 06:31:52 PM »
Paul:

I don't think it's the idea of having a pond on the golf course that people object to at Diamante.  I think it's the idea of having a pond in the desert.  It's not about the shaping, it's about the very idea of it.

The best man-made irrigation ponds are the ones you can't see from the golf course at all.  The pond for Pacific Dunes is over the dune from #18 -- it's the one you drive past on the road up to Old Macdonald.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2011, 06:45:23 PM »
...
The best man-made irrigation ponds are the ones you can't see from the golf course at all. ...

+1
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2011, 07:12:30 PM »
Although I am not sure who is best, I can firmly say that among elite designers I feel like Pete Dye's are worst.  Whistling Straits and the Honors come to mind immediately as examples where the pond looks incredibly out of place/contrived.  Mr. Dye uses the water well strategically, but somehow fails to blend the ponds with the surroundings in a harmonious way.  I have long felt Mr. Dye has been given a fairly large pass for his somewhat questionable construction of water features. 

Bart


Peter Pallotta

Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2011, 08:04:46 PM »
Paul - For me, if there's going to be one pond it's better that there are SIX. The one irrigation pond always looks lonely and out of place -- while having six or seven strewn about might help my eye believe that I'm in the land of ponds, with natural springs bubbling up all over the course.
Peter
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 09:36:52 PM by PPallotta »

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2011, 08:29:07 PM »
I really like the concept used at Atlantic City Country Club for the first of two irrigation ponds. Its just off the back of the clubhouse and placed right next to the practice green, which connects into the 1st tee. Its definitely a pleasing sight for most guests who are there more for the casinos than the golf, and anyone having a drink or lunch outside. The only golf shot it effects is the 1st tee shot for those playing form the back tee, since it is located at the very edge of the putting green, but for any golfer who should be playing from the back tee, toped shots really shouldn't be much of a worry, and it gets the heart pumping a little bit harder, which is fine by me... Clearly its not in play for the practice green!




Ryan Admussen

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Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2011, 08:32:52 PM »
Sagebrush


Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2011, 02:36:38 AM »
How many irrigation ponds are not manmade?  

Bill,
I think ANGC doesn't use the pond for irrigation....


I think at AN they use perrier bottled water only and at 63 degrees. I also heard that when the daytime temps approach 100 they do a light syringe with the same bottled water but add a twist of lemon. Apparently the lemon is not only refreshing but is acidic and helps eliminate any fungus that might be forming by reducing the ph to unfavorable levels, thus discouraging further active fungal development and thereby eliminating the needs for fans like Pine Valley!

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2011, 08:18:24 AM »
Tom Doak said......"Paul:

I don't think it's the idea of having a pond on the golf course that people object to at Diamante.  I think it's the idea of having a pond in the desert.  It's not about the shaping, it's about the very idea of it.

The best man-made irrigation ponds are the ones you can't see from the golf course at all.  The pond for Pacific Dunes is over the dune from #18 -- it's the one you drive past on the road up to Old Macdonald."


Tom - Actually a lot less shaping was was done than you would expect. The area for the irrigation pond was an existing interdunal depression that already had wetland plant growth at one end, and would fill up during storm events. Most of our shaping occurred when we dammed one end and installed a liner while creating littoral shelves for the planting of various wetland species we collected from the estuary at San Jose....and yes, there are many of these types of features found naturally in the desert coast that is Cabo.

Prior to the construction of the pond I explored the entire undeveloped coast from Diamante north to Todos Santos...about 65 miles...as this is the area with the sand dune coastal features. North of Todos Santos the land flattens as do the dunes.
Many of the smaller arroyos have pocketed wetlands behind the primary dune because the rain events don't have enough volume to push through them and empty into the sea, and these intermittent wetland ponds or lagunas develop the same plants and wildlife species found in the pond at Diamante. We just encouraged it a little :) and as a consequence the bird life flocked there and introduced plenty of fish species, and so it goes...I love to watch the groups of frigate birds as they circle and soar. We designed the pond to allow for a 5 to 6' shoreline fluctuation while appearing natural...again similar to the existing ponds found locally.
We also designed the pond to not be in play for most golfers and and there is a large unirrigated buffer between both of the holes that border it.

I will agree that the best ponds are those you do not see, but unfortunately we didn't have the luxury of space you enjoyed at Pacific Dunes to be able to hide our 13 acre pond.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2011, 09:37:18 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2011, 08:25:10 AM »
Tom:

The ponds on RM West deserve a mention in he list of "ponds you can't see".

I don't notice either until I looked at an aerial.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2011, 11:44:42 AM »
A necessity...grass needs water.

I'm tired...so I will nominate Diamante Dunes!

Sorry Paul, One cannot nomninate their own work.  ;)

Beyond that it is a feature that few like. I happen to agree but I have the benefit of knowing the effort that went into making it seem more natural and in harmony with the surrounding environment.


Sorry my friend---this is my thread and as such I am God! :)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2011, 02:26:11 PM »
Paul, thanks for the explanation of the process and study you made of the entire enviro region of how wetland works in that Cabo area.  It is clear you made a very good effort to do the best you could and meet the water requirement you have. 

Could you discuss what pond liner sealer you favor.  I'll assume the bentonite soil clay sealer approach.  But, for you archies, is there a big consideration of how you seal ponds in those naturally sandy areas, depending on if effluent water is stored up in the ponds, or recharge from well water, runoff, etc.?  Would you use one method of sealer for the littoral wetland plant propagation wild life promotional sides of the larger irrigation pond-lake, and a different sealing approach for the deepest part that would be the year around part that holds the critical reservoir of water needed to irrigate in droughts?

I think the needed water resource and reservoir, water features, ponds, water courses, recirculating ones, and flow through streams are all a very big aspect of what the archie brings to their own style and demonstration of golf architectural design savvy and construction skill.  Knowing or having a vision on how to present these features, what makes sense to the game, and when it is needed but not desired visually, is a mark of a good archie.  There are as many ways to approach water features in their climate, terrain and yearly water reservoir needs as there are styles of architecture. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2011, 03:50:46 PM »
Since we needed one we made it as big as we could.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2011, 11:26:40 PM »
Gotta be Torrey Pines...awesomeness!!!


Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2011, 06:15:42 AM »
Paul, thanks for the explanation of the process and study you made of the entire enviro region of how wetland works in that Cabo area.  It is clear you made a very good effort to do the best you could and meet the water requirement you have.  

Could you discuss what pond liner sealer you favor.  I'll assume the bentonite soil clay sealer approach.  But, for you archies, is there a big consideration of how you seal ponds in those naturally sandy areas, depending on if effluent water is stored up in the ponds, or recharge from well water, runoff, etc.?  Would you use one method of sealer for the littoral wetland plant propagation wild life promotional sides of the larger irrigation pond-lake, and a different sealing approach for the deepest part that would be the year around part that holds the critical reservoir of water needed to irrigate in droughts?

I think the needed water resource and reservoir, water features, ponds, water courses, recirculating ones, and flow through streams are all a very big aspect of what the archie brings to their own style and demonstration of golf architectural design savvy and construction skill.  Knowing or having a vision on how to present these features, what makes sense to the game, and when it is needed but not desired visually, is a mark of a good archie.  There are as many ways to approach water features in their climate, terrain and yearly water reservoir needs as there are styles of architecture.  
When I was in Cabo during the Palmilla, Cabo del Sol days, one of my jobs was glueing patches on the PVC liner; I think it was PVC. Never forget it, as I was chugging along patching the little holes, I came across a Black Widow. Another time we were filling gabions along the edge of an arroyo, split a rock open and inside was a tarantula of pretty good size; cute bugger.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 05:18:35 PM by Tony Ristola »

Ryan Farrow

Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2011, 08:25:02 AM »
Since we needed one we made it as big as we could.



Mike, if you irrigation pond qualifies for "Great Lake" status..... you are disqualified.

 Sorry.


Good theory.... build em so big you couldn't believe they are man made..... Very Clever stuff!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2011, 05:37:19 PM »
How many irrigation ponds are not manmade?  

Bill,
I think ANGC doesn't use the pond for irrigation....



So where do they store their water?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2011, 05:43:47 PM »
Sagebrush



I'll see your Sagebrush and raise you a Furry Creek!   ;D


paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best man made irrigation lakes or ponds on a golf course.
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2011, 10:18:52 PM »
RJ - good question

I have lined irrigation lakes many ways, using clay, bentonite and various types of PVC. The sand being so perculative  ;) at Diamante, using a black Hypalon PVC liner was the best choice...40 mil as I remember.

Imagine a section of two lawn chairs face to face but moved a part a bit, which is a simplistic vision of the profile we created. We shaped the lower areas to be covered by a foot of fill, but allowed for a minimum of 3' of fill in the 'arm' areas so we could plant native vegetation that had enough depth above the liner for a complete root structure. We then varied this amount of fill according to the depth that various aquatics preferred...bull rushes 2-3'....shallower marsh grasses less than that, and 3' plus for some of the largest aquatics. We even created larger fills of underwater areas to create islands of vegetation. By planting (after designing these areas), we were able to control the growth (by the depth of the water) of the plants and the look we wanted. The underwater shaping of the pond took as much thought as the adjacent fairways.

It might even be the best shaped part of the course.

Thanks RJ!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

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