[Niall C]

The reason I ask this question is that in reading Ran's old thread, he seemed to suggest that nothing had changed at Cruden Bay from when Old Tom helped to lay it out and when Tom Simpson arrived to do his bit. From the little digging about I've done it is clear the course was continually getting tweaked here and there before Simpson did his bit.

Starting with Archie Simpson who arrived to knock the course into shape and then quickly made way for A.N. Weir who was their up to 1906 making changes here and there before departing for Turnberry to do a similar job there. He was followed by Andrew Simpson, who again made some changes before departing. He in turn was replaced as pro/greenkeeper by John McAndrew who served the longest (stayed until 1926) and probably made the most changes including a new 4th (not sure whether that's the same hole as today). As a side note McAndrew designed 6 new holes for the Machrie amongst a handful of other courses that he laid out.

What I would like to know is what did Tom Simpson do and what was the layout of the course that he altered ?

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

Niall

Check your E-mail

Melvyn

[Tom MacWood]

Niall
In 1908 T.Simpson wrote an article profiling CB. Within this article he detailed the courses strengths and weaknesses, some recent changes and goes on to suggest additional alterations. I found reference to Simpson refereeing a professional tournament at CB in 1910 and playing in a amateur event there in 1911. Also in 1911 Fowler wrote an article on the use of plasticine models, and said he had been introduced to the idea by Simpson at CB. Simpson must have gone back because there was plasticine model of a green at CB in a Carters advertisement. The green is dated from 1920 and identified as being on the new course, which I'm assuming is nine hole St. Olaf course. I get the impression Simpson had a long relationship with CB and redesigned quite a bit of the course over the years. He considered it one of his greatest accomplishments.

[Melvyn Morrow]

My understanding of Cruden Bay was that the original course circa 1896 was modified to accommodate St Olaf 9 Holes course both opened in 1899. Cruden Bay was commissioned in 1894 and opened in 1899 – seems to silence the comments of those who said courses in this period took less than two weeks to build.

In 1926 Simpson modified the main course and also St Olaf Course

Melvyn

[Niall C]

Thanks Melvyn, I've emailed you back.

Tom

There's no doubt Simpson had a long association with Cruden Bay and I've come across a couple of articles from him, possibly the same one you have, together with Simpsons report on the annual Open that was held there every year, and in which Fowler took part in one year and was surprisingly beaten in the final. What I've yet to find is any reference to him being involved in the design or alteration of the course. I don't have the articles to hand but from memory he referred to the work that was done by the greenkeeper/pro and in general terms and was fairly complimentary about it.

Fowler was also complimentary about the course although I think from memory he suggested it was a bit short to be a proper Championship one.

Its interesting that you mention a plasticine model of a green because in a later article on McAndrew the writer stated that McAndrew had designed the holes at Cruden Bay and the Machrie by use of plasticine models and indeed at the time (c. 1926 ?) of the article, McAndrew who was setting up shop in Royal Exchange Place in Glasgow, was displaying the ones he did of the Machrie. I wonder if McAndrew was in cahoots with Simpson or whether the models in question that were in Carters advert were produced by McAndrew on his own ?

If I can find the time I'll dig out what I've got and send them over. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

The only thing I've got that suggests that Simpson played any direct part is the series of articles done by Charles Ambrose of Simpson holes, most of which were in France from memory, and which included the 6th (?) at Cruden Bay. Again there is no direct reference to Simpson having designed or altered that hole but there is a clear inference that he did by the fact that it was included in the series.

Niall

[Niall C]

Tom

I should also add that there's an OS based plan in the National Archives of Scotland that I've seen that is dated 1938 with the course marked on it. Its an old plan and from what I could tell it was printed with no later pen markings. I didn't have a plan of the modern course with me when I viewed it but from what I could see and from my dodgy memory of the course it looked like not much had  changed. So if I am right about the plan showing what was on the ground in 1938 and also right that it shows pretty much what is there now then I would assume that any major changes that Simpson did would have been prior to this date.

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pre the 1926 modifications to the two course, The St Olaf course did exist and as I said I believed it was opened with the main course in 1899.

The following is an Easter Golfing ad for 1925 and it show two courses 18 & 9 proving the St Olaf was in existence prior to the changes on 1926



Considering how much of Old Tom design is still left what did Simpson do apart from some minor routing changes - Simpson is not high on my list, good perhaps but tainted is my feeling for the guy and his work.

Melvyn

[Frank Pont]

I think the answer is in the book "A century of golf at Cruden Bay".

It gives the layout of the original course by Old Tom and Archi Simpson on page 56  and gives the hole lengths on page 59.

Later it descibes (pages 66-71) which holes of the current course are Tom Simpson:

1. TS hole
2. TS hole, but probably OTM green
3. TS hole
4. TS hole
5. TS hole
6. TS hole
7. TS hole (dogleg), but OTM green
8. TS modified OTM hole (green moved)
9. OTM hole shortened by 60 yards
10. OTM hole lengthenend by 25 yards
11. TS hole
12.OTM hole, but from different tee
13. Combination of 2 OTM holes (13, 14)
14. OTM hole
15. OTM hole,  was 150 yards and visible (old tees are still on the dunes!), now 240 yards and blind
16. TS hole
17. TS hole
18. TS hole

This would indicate a lot of TS to me, something I would also expect to be true just from looking at the greendesigns of the holes attributed to him (the OTM greens are flatter and lack TS typical subtle undulations).

[Tom MacWood]

The plasticine models in the Carters advertisement pamphlet are Fowler & Simpson's, and the text for the pamphlet was written by T.Simpson. The model is dated 1920. In the early 20s Fowler, Abercromby, Simpson and Croome listed CB as one of their designs/redesigns. They included a schematic of the 6th hole in their advertisement, explaining the strategic rational behind the design. Fowler, who was known for his plasticine models, said he got the idea (pre-1911) from Simpson at Cruden Bay. One of things Simpson complained about the course in 1909 was the flatness of the greens. I suspect much of what Simpson did over the years was relocate and recontour the putting greens, as well as adding and removing bunkers.

[Tom MacWood]

I think the answer is in the book "A century of golf at Cruden Bay".

It gives the layout of the original course by Old Tom and Archi Simpson on page 56  and gives the hole lengths on page 59.

Later it descibes (pages 66-71) which holes of the current course are Tom Simpson:

1. TS hole
2. TS hole, but probably OTM green
3. TS hole
4. TS hole
5. TS hole
6. TS hole
7. TS hole (dogleg), but OTM green
8. TS modified OTM hole (green moved)
9. OTM hole shortened by 60 yards
10. OTM hole lengthenend by 25 yards
11. TS hole
12.OTM hole, but from different tee
13. Combination of 2 OTM holes (13, 14)
14. OTM hole
15. OTM hole,  was 150 yards and visible (old tees are still on the dunes!), now 240 yards and blind
16. TS hole
17. TS hole
18. TS hole

This would indicate a lot of TS to me, something I would also expect to be true just from looking at the greendesigns of the holes attributed to him (the OTM greens are flatter and lack TS typical subtle undulations).

Frank
I have one of the club histories, but I'm not sure its the same one. The book I have claims Fowler & Simpson redesigned the course in 1926, but I have not found any evidence of activity in 1926. And the book ignores the contributions of Weir, who made quite a few important changes. Also I think it is difficult to claim a hole is the work one man when the course has evolved over a period of years, and had numerous contributors.

[Niall C]

Frank

Many thanks for that. From the title of the book, I assume its relatively modern. Can you tell me what sources the book gives for the hole attributions, and indeed who wrote the book ? As for the greens, I'm not sure I could call them typical of anyone. The internal contours look fairly typical of greens when architecture moved away from billiard table greens in the early 1900's.

Tom

Thanks also for that. Its interesting that perhaps McAndrew and Simpson might have been claiming credit for the same things. If Simpson was doing design work pre 1911 I assume this would have been amongst his vey earliest work ? Do we know if Simpson held any formal capacity within the golf club, like membership of the Greens Committee or such like ?

Niall

[Tom MacWood]

Another thing to consider is who originally laid out the golf in 1898. An article in The Times from March 30 1899 said the course was laid out under the advice of OTM. On April 15, 1899 in the Scotsman it says the advice of OTM "was taken and following upon the lines laid down by him, Archie Simpson of Aberdeen, has succeeded in laying out a course which for variety would difficult to surpass."

From those two articles I would conclude OTM designed it and A. Simpson built it, but in 1908 Simpson wrote, "I regard Cruden Bay as my masterpiece. It was laid out ten years ago (but has been improved from time to time) as a better knowledge was gained of the ground, (and) the round upon the whole still follows the original plan."

I took that last quote from Rich Goodale's article on Archie Simpson.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom

Thanks also for that. Its interesting that perhaps McAndrew and Simpson might have been claiming credit for the same things. If Simpson was doing design work pre 1911 I assume this would have been amongst his vey earliest work ? Do we know if Simpson held any formal capacity within the golf club, like membership of the Greens Committee or such like ?

Niall

Those were my thoughts too, but I have not been able to find any formal connection to the club. In the 1911 CB amateur event TS listed his club as Worplesdon, but then again none of the competitors listed CB as their home club. I suspect CB was more of a holiday or resort course in those days. I think CB was one of his earliest, if not the earliest, architectural endeavors. I have found a few letters to the editor he wrote pre-1910 that show he was definitely interested in the subject.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Old Tom was called in in 1894 way before A Simpson, a Course was designed and I believe in place by 1896. Detailed drawing exists of said layout but it did not have the second 9 Hole St Olaf Course. This was added and ready by 1899 when the main courses opened.

First Report in 1894 is of Old Tom’s commission to design the course well before Simpson involvement.


The year after the 18 Hole course was ready 1987 this article appeared with Simpson now onboard but still no St Olaf 9 Hole


We jump to 1920 and find that only St Olaf course is being altered/modified as the main course is still in play - Cruden Bay Report of mods ONLY to existing 9 Hole Course Mani Course in play  P.1 of 2

P2 of 2


 Cruden Bay report 22 June 1926 but no report of any modifications. So far no report has as yet come to light although I have not done a detailed search on the main course redesign by T Simpson.



What is going on,  who knows but Old Tom was involved, he designed a course. Now just speculation, of course, but had Old Tom designed the original then the Hotel wanted an addition 9 so original requiring modification and the man on the spot was A Simpson (Aberdeen) who perhaps went over Old Toms course made changes, check with Old Tom and discussed the new 9 Hole course then A Simpson went back to Cruden and laid out the mods. Who knows, but would make sense of the Cruden History and the other reports I have from the various newspapers. All say of Old Tom involvement with Cruden that he was the designer – yes that very first course excluding the St Olaf’s 9 Holes, but again its clear in all reports that he subsequently supervised Simpson in the design. – hence “was taken and following upon the lines laid down by him, Archie Simpson of Aberdeen, has succeeded in laying out a course which for variety would difficult to surpass."

As for Tom Simpson, as I have said before I do not trust that guy – period, I certainly want proof and not from his hand.

Hope the above will assist.

Melvyn


PS Makes you wonder if this may be a case of Tom Simpson trying to claim the work done by others?

[Tom MacWood]

The year after the 18 Hole course was ready 1987 this article appeared with Simpson now onboard but still no St Olaf 9 Hole

What book was this taken from? Date?

According to this report the 1894 course did last long, which explains why you see all the reports in 1899 of a new course being opened for play. That new course was evidently commissioned in 1897 by the Great North of Scotland Company, and was some kind of collaboration between OTM and Archie Simpson.

I believe the 1926 date is a mistake. Simpson's redesign of the old course and design of the St. Olaf must have been in 1920, which is confirmed by the plasticine model dated 1920, and the Fowler & Simpson advertisements in the early 20s listing CB as one of theirs.

[Frank Pont]

I think the answer is in the book "A century of golf at Cruden Bay".

It gives the layout of the original course by Old Tom and Archi Simpson on page 56  and gives the hole lengths on page 59.

Later it descibes (pages 66-71) which holes of the current course are Tom Simpson:

1. TS hole
2. TS hole, but probably OTM green
3. TS hole
4. TS hole
5. TS hole
6. TS hole
7. TS hole (dogleg), but OTM green
8. TS modified OTM hole (green moved)
9. OTM hole shortened by 60 yards
10. OTM hole lengthenend by 25 yards
11. TS hole
12.OTM hole, but from different tee
13. Combination of 2 OTM holes (13, 14)
14. OTM hole
15. OTM hole,  was 150 yards and visible (old tees are still on the dunes!), now 240 yards and blind
16. TS hole
17. TS hole
18. TS hole

This would indicate a lot of TS to me, something I would also expect to be true just from looking at the greendesigns of the holes attributed to him (the OTM greens are flatter and lack TS typical subtle undulations).

Frank
I have one of the club histories, but I'm not sure its the same one. The book I have claims Fowler & Simpson redesigned the course in 1926, but I have not found any evidence of activity in 1926. And the book ignores the contributions of Weir, who made quite a few important changes. Also I think it is difficult to claim a hole is the work one man when the course has evolved over a period of years, and had numerous contributors.

Tom,

The book is from 1998, celebrating the 100th aniversary of golf being played at Cruden Bay 1899-1999

I agree there is a grey area when existing holes get reworked, but some of the holes were completely new such as 1, 3 and 4.

[Frank Pont]

Frank

Many thanks for that. From the title of the book, I assume its relatively modern. Can you tell me what sources the book gives for the hole attributions, and indeed who wrote the book ? As for the greens, I'm not sure I could call them typical of anyone. The internal contours look fairly typical of greens when architecture moved away from billiard table greens in the early 1900's.

Tom

Thanks also for that. Its interesting that perhaps McAndrew and Simpson might have been claiming credit for the same things. If Simpson was doing design work pre 1911 I assume this would have been amongst his vey earliest work ? Do we know if Simpson held any formal capacity within the golf club, like membership of the Greens Committee or such like ?

Niall

Niall,

sorry, no sources given. The club did not have any Simpson drawings anymore. However I was told by the chair of the greens that they have some Tom Simpson embroideries (!!) in the club archive, depicting certain holes. Unfortunately I never got to see them.

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