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Rich_Goodale

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #75 on: January 18, 2002, 05:46:31 AM »
Yeah, Mike

And before some wuss starts to weigh in with some sort of comment about "technology", I've just gotta say it:

"GCA guys are GOOD!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

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Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #76 on: January 18, 2002, 05:58:49 AM »
Mike, Rich:

Did you guys really hit it to the Hogan marker on 18 from the new "way back" tee?  I can BARELY get it to the fairway with my best.

That hole, by the way, has it all design-wise.  Length, heroic shot(s) required, strategy (2nd shot sets up better from more dangerous left side off the tee) and subtlety (better long than short - the chip shot from the back is MUCH easier than from the swale in front).  Although it's not the visual stunner that #13 at Pine Valley is, I think it's a better golf hole.

If there's never been a Merion vs. Pine Valley thread on the site, feel free to start one.  However, please wait until this thread's run its course as I just don't have time for 2 "hot button" threads at once!

Got to go.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

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Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #77 on: January 18, 2002, 06:17:10 AM »
The way back tee frightens me. To give you some idea of the speed of the ground the last time I played Merion (admittedly is was 101 deg.), from the back tees, i took my line down the left side of the fairway catching the slope and was left with rough 115 yds in up the hill.

that is firm and fast  :D

Chip Oat - Yes, I hit 2 iron on 5 at PV (it was a day later than Merion, and one degree cooler). I never said anything about making it to the hole, though  ;)

interested to hear your thoughts re RHC #8
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

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Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #78 on: January 18, 2002, 06:49:28 AM »
Terrific discussion.

Jeff wrote:

"This is the probably reason for the "demise of the carry bunker" in modern architecture relative to its use in the golden age.  We have generally moved to the "inside"-"inside" bunkering to provide a "golfers choice" hole, with two equally valid options, based on the strengths of the player's game."

Question:

Is there a "golfer's choice" on a hole with an "inside-inside" bunkering scheme?  

What choices do I have from the tee?  Why wouldn't all golfers - good, bad or indifferent - take the outside route?  If the green opens up from the bail-out area, why would I ever want to hit it near the "inside" fairway bunker?

Interesting point about the demise of the carry bunker.  You are certainly right that you don't see new ones being built and the old ones tend to get the "committee" treatment.    

Ross, for example, built two types of carry bunkers.  There were his topshot bunkers at 100 yards (more or less) and his "strategic" fairway bunkering at 230 yards (more or less).  

I assume you are talking about the "strategic" type bunker when you refer to "carry bunkers."  If so, and at least in the case of Ross, these bunkers tended to be (though not always) at the sides of his fairways.  They required carries only where the tee shot was missed to that side of the fairway.  Thus, I never thought they were unfair or burdensome - even for really bad players.  If you want to flirt with them and you mishit your shot, you pay the price.  You may be screwed, but you screwed yourself.

These aren't cross bunkers.  They don't obligate the player to carry them in order to progress down the fairway.  They are at the edges of fairways to set up interesting strategic choices from the tee.

Nonetheless, the vast majority of these bunkers have been removed over the years.  I don't think that is a good thing.  I sense you may agree.  

Is their removal is a further sign that architects (and greens committees) are under pressure from owners to dumb down courses to the level of play of the worst players?  I think that is essentially what you are saying when you and other archies are troubled by the "I'm screwed" response to hazards on your courses.

Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate the economic pressures you guys are under to build courses where everyone likes every shot they have all the time.  Nobody likes unhappy clients, even if you think they are wrong to be unhappy.

Still, I hope architects and developers will resist those kinds of pressures.  

In a broader sense, that is what troubles me about Chip's proposal for changes to No. 5 at MidO - that somehow we have to make sure that weaker players have strategic advantages too.  So you re-angle the green to open it up for the short hitter.  

While on the one hand that appeals to our apple pie sense of fairness to all, on the other hand the wonderful agony of making the right strategic choice from the tee has been diminished for the longer player.  If you reduce the advantages of cutting off more of the lake, I will tend to take fewer risks.  And with it you have lost the "juice" that makes No. 5 at MidO one of the great holes in the world.

The Dye "inside- inside" concept seems to me to achieve the same "fairness to weaker players" result by locating hazards so that no real strategy is involved to any player, weak or strong.    

It seems to me we should resist a rule that says architects ought to balance strategic advantages between strong players and weak players.  Architects should not be in the business of redistributing risk away form those that hit it poorly to those that hit it well.  Well conceived, well executed shots should always be rewarded.  Sometimes lavishly rewarded.

In some respects, Chip's "redistribution of risk" and Dye's "inside-inside" bunker strategy is why I dislike so many Fazio  courses.  He employs both concepts often.  

Ironically, it also explains - at least in part - why he is so damned popular.  But maybe that will be a topic for another thread.

Bob





      



  

 



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_McDowell

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #79 on: January 18, 2002, 06:50:18 AM »
All this talk about different strategic options is great, but it's making my head spin. I tried to explain it to my wife last night, but I sounded like a blithering idiot to her.

What all this makes me think about is the importance of laying a golf course onto a landscape. Assuming you have a half way decent piece of land, you guarantee that all these options are incorporated into the course.

We start to lose these fantastic strategies and options when we deconstruct and then reconstruct a site to fit nicely into our very narrow and simple paradigms.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

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Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #80 on: January 18, 2002, 07:22:09 AM »
I was wondering about how Tom Fazio's designs fit into this discussion and then I saw BCrosby's statement above:

"In some respects, Chip's "redistribution of risk" and Dye's "inside-inside" bunker strategy is why I dislike so many Fazio  courses.  He employs both concepts often."

I tend to think this is accurate from the few Fazio courses I've seen but I'm not sure I've seen enough Fazio courses to say so with conviction. Would you all agree/disagree/modify the foregoing comment?  And please, this is NOT under any circumstances intended to drag this wonderful thread into Fazio-bashing. It's perhaps hopefully a probe into WHY Mr. Fazio's courses do not resonate with some in this discussion group.  

All The Best,

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

THuckaby2

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #81 on: January 18, 2002, 07:26:46 AM »
This is one hell of a great thread and all I can say is:

YOU'RE WELCOME

for getting my sorry ass out of the way yesterday and allowing this free-flow of the titans to occur!

Very interesting indeed....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #82 on: January 18, 2002, 07:36:45 AM »
Chipoat,

Yes, we did, but in all modesty, I think we both saved our best drives of the day for last.  

Of course, before we get into a Hoganesque debate on what clubs we used for our second shots, Rich may have hit a 1-iron, but I can assure you (and the USGA museum) that I hit my trusty 2-iron.  

I still left a 12-footer for par, but making that one brought a wonderfully memorable day to an end.

But, yes, Chip...I hear you about that significant carry.  You notice we didn't mention what happened to Tom Paul's well-struck drive on the same hole.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

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Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #83 on: January 18, 2002, 07:44:50 AM »
Bob Crosby

Need many hours to ponder what's been happening on this thread but I do have time for quick post.

I hadn't thought of my preferences as a redistribution of RISK since I assume that Old Thunder Buns' long ball option is to a similar landing area as Mr. Cashmere Insert's garden spot.  Risk is, after all, a relative term.  Equal size of landing area isn't always true, of course, but this IS an academic discussion and it IS true on the "offending" holes that I cited way back at the beginning.

I prefer to think of this concept as a redistribution of REWARD by attempting to make the degree of difficulty of the approach (or, on a par 5, the second shot and the approach) more equal (on a new design) or less unequal (on a re-design) from the 2 respective landing areas.

Keep goin' guys - I'll catch up this weekend.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #84 on: January 18, 2002, 08:04:09 AM »
Doug,

Let's not use this as an excuse to bash Fazio.

Bob Crosby,

I don't think anyone mentioned "design rules".  I mentioned some theories and perhaps my preferences in using them at various times.  If inside-inside is now rule one (and I don't think it is) then rule two is "break rule number one whenever you deem fit".

I think we all agree that strategic carry bunkers (not top shot, although these are out of favor, too) that encroach the fairway on an angle just short of the normal carry distance (whatever that is) are being used less than in the Golden Age.

Why in an inside inside would golfers take anything but the outside route?  I proposed their use on long 4's into the wind, because the straight line distance may shorten the hole enough to make a difference.  On shorter holes, safe play would be preferred.

Most of my rambling thoughts on what to do when weren't really aimed at dumbing down the course.  I presumed that the target golfer of the design would be a low to medium handicap, serious competitor in his club or city events, would try to take advantage of every tool at his disposal to shoot the best score, and would like at least some of the holes to favor his game over someone with different strengths.  Even a golfer as good as Trevino skipped the Masters, believing he had no chance to win on that course.  Would you like to skip a club event because you couldn't do well?  Or would you just change clubs?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Doug Wright

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Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #85 on: January 18, 2002, 08:11:07 AM »
Jeff,

Please reread my post.

Regards,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #86 on: January 18, 2002, 08:18:47 AM »
Doug,

I understood your moderate tone.  I just think, that with this group, it is a slippery slope to start down. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #87 on: January 18, 2002, 08:22:24 AM »
Jeff,

I made the post with trepidation aforethought. What the hell, never mind... :)

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #88 on: January 18, 2002, 10:33:53 AM »
Jeff -

I did not mean to imply you were proposing a "rule" of cga.  I agree with you that if there is a rule in cga, the next rule should be to break it.

Nor did I want to get into Fazio bashing.  We've covered that ground too often.

Nor did I mean to imply that you or any other architect is eager to  to "dumb down" courses.  My sense is, however, that architects these days feel a lot of pressure from developers and private clubs to make sure that even the worst golfer has a pleasant and, if possible, hazard-free round.  My guess is that you don't like that pressure but that it seems to be a fact of life.  I may be wrong.

Chip, I think, comes at the issue from a slightly different angle.  He is concerned with the excessive benefits of length off the tee and how courses might be designed to give shorter hitters more of an even  break.  An argument based on concerns about basic fairness.

Both the economic pressures exerted by a developer and Chip's concerns with equity necessarily result in changes in the way modern architects design courses.

By and large, I think those developer pressures/equitable concerns result in courses that are less strategic and less interesting than they might otherwise be.

Viewed slightly differently, could it be that one of the reasons 29 of the top 30 courses in the most recent GD ranking are from the Golden Age is because the builders of those courses were not overly concerned about how tough those courses might be for the weaker player?

Yes, I think that is probably part of the answer.

I don't think that necessaritly implies that those older designers were smarter than the moderns.  It was just a different mindset.

Bob

P.S.  You make a good point about the "inside-inside" bunkering scheme on long par 4's with a bend in the fairway.  Other than that scenario, however, it seems to me inside-inside ought to be used pretty rarely.  Unfortunately, inside-inside appears to be the default bunker scheme in virtually all of the modern designs I see around here in Atlanta.  I exclude that GCA favorite Cuscowilla, of course.

P.S.S.  By the way, thanks for coming up with the "inside-inside" phrase.  I've been trying to find a way to express the concept for years.

  







    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #89 on: January 18, 2002, 10:34:50 AM »
What this thread has done for me is to illustrate how many differing strategic concepts there are - some more common than others -- and it has probably only exposed the tip of the ice berg. I agree with BCrosby that the carry bunker sets up many interesting posssiblities and is sadly used less frequently today. Its demise can probably be traced to the Depression. And although many architects of that time wrote that they were a strategic waste or unnecessary or unfair, I think that criticism can be traced to economic reasons more than true strategic principals. But unfortunately that idea has carried through into the minds of some modern designers. There seems to be tight realtionship between strategy and playability/fairness in the mind of some modern golf architects - which doesn't always translate into interesting golf.

I would think not only should many differing strategic 'formulas' be used, some less 'fair' (or more penal) than others, but I also believe that an interesting design would also exhibit some purely penal qualities. And that one might also consider designing holes with little or no apparent strategy as a way to confuse - after heavy diet of thought the golfer may be perplexed as to exactly how to attack a hole that doesn't present a well defined strategy (perhaps a hole without hazards). If you mix-up the strategies and you include hole here or there that are either penal or non- or astrategic (I think I invented that word), I would think you could keep the golfer off ballance, always thinking and wondering.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #90 on: January 18, 2002, 03:36:33 PM »
What is the opposite of "Cape"? Well its a "Bay". Therefore holes which we thought were "Cape" holes but are not because the green is not out on a cape should be relabelled "Bay" holes. Obvious huuh!?!

I am curious as to why the 17th at NGLA is called Leven? The map of the course that is in Macdonald's book has the 17th named Peconic. When and why was this name changed? Someone referred to a Leven hole at Yale. What are the particular strategic characteristics of a Leven hole as I have never heard of it before. Presumably named after some feature at Leven Links I guess.
cheers
Neil
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #91 on: January 18, 2002, 03:41:29 PM »
Neil

We did this discussion of the "Leven" hole a couple of months ago.  If you can't find it in the "archives" let us know and we'll re-type our thoughts for you.

Cheers

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #92 on: January 18, 2002, 05:44:47 PM »
Neil:

I remember the "leven" hole discussion as it related to NGLA's #17--there were even a few photos of the "leven" hole in Europe--whereever it is.

But you're right NGLA's #17 is not called "leven", it's called "Peconic" obviously because its entire backdrop is the  Peconic Bay. There's even a hole at Shinnecock (contiguous to NGLA but to the inland side of it) that also has a hole named "Peconic" and for the same reason (can't remember at the moment which # it is) because you look out over the Peconic Bay from it--although from a greater distance.

NGLA's #17 is apparently called a "leven" hole though, probably for the same reason NGLA's #4 is called a "Redan", #7 is called a "Road" hole, #13 is an "Eden" and so on.

Some people are under the impression that these holes are actual copies of those European holes in a very recognizable sense. I really don't think that's so or at least it's not the point at all. They might have similar characteristics, feature placement whatever.

Even a designer like MacDonald who clearly pulled some "concepts" or even entire concepts of a hole from some of what he thought was excellent in Europe, he never really intended to make his holes "copies" of those holes or certainly not "exact copies" or replicas.

Some of these so-called "copies" are sometimes recognizable to their "concept" prototypes because of a distinctive feature or whatever and many times the basic "strategic concept" is very similar in a part of the hole or even an overall sense, like very similar basic strategies or parts of them. Again, I don't think they were ever really intended to be total replicas though.  

I remember the photos of the original "leven" hole in Europe and it didn't look much or anything like NGLA's #17 although you could clearly see it had a number of "features" (whatever they might have been) that may have been placed in similar arrangements to the prototype. These so-called "copies" are often of similar lengths too but probably only because that's necessary to accomplish basic overall strategies similarities. I call holes that are non particularly recognizable to prototypes "concept copies".

Some will obviously argue with me on this distinction but that's a difference in interpretation, I guess. As an example of why I say this would be MacDonald's own interpretation of these kinds of holes, particularly the ones that have names like the "redan".

MacDonald mentioned that basically you find a piece of land that is a basic "table-top" affair and from that you may be able to construct a redan type hole! Or clearly his "road" hole was constructing a green with the same basic shape, orientation and maybe even dimensions of the original "road hole" and you have a "Road" hole. The body of the hole and it's length may have some basic similar characteristics but NGLA's #7 fits into its own natural environment and does not in any way attempt to manufacture it to look similar to TOC's #17. Piping's #8 is also call a "Road hole" but the hole was originally designed with another playability as it was much shorter and had "features" interchanged in various places with other kinds of "features" on the prototype.

Ran might disagree with me on all this since I think he feels  these so-called famous hole "copies" should be exact in every way, but that's not something I agree with and I don't think that's what the designer was out to do.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #93 on: January 19, 2002, 05:59:29 AM »
Again, this really is a great thread involving many aspects of  golf, strategic ramifications and principles etc! I read back through some of it and it occurs to me, though, that some of the discussion may be getting into the realm of both the unnreasonable or even the impossible, both from the perspective of the designer and also the golfer, in the sense that "the golfer" can be and is a very broad spectrum.

It seems as if Chip Oat has tried to define and identify what could be done design-wise to even out strategic risk/reward factors between a long hitter and a shorter one, and he's even given examples of a number of holes that can do that well somehow. Jeff Brauer, particularly, has tried to offer a number of actual design prinicples (or even design formulae) of how to do that--or even how much to do that! Jeff and some others have even mentioned how other architects do that--either well or not so well, in their opinions.

And this entire very good thread evolved out of "Bob" Jones's  quote of how to widen the gap between a good shot and a bad shot. It might be necessary to estimate a bit better what "Bob" meant by that quote because it isn't particularly clear. But it might be necessary to do to carry on this discussion accurately, or even to determine if it's reasonable or even possible to do.

Did "Bob" mean by a "good shot", a well thoughtout and a well executed shot and by a "poor shot" a shot that was well thoughtout and executed poorly. Or by a "poor shot" maybe a well executed shot that was poorly thoughtout for some reason! And "Bob" didn't really say anything about "distance" vs "accuracy", or some comibination of the two, did he?  

And even not knowing what "Bob" meant he really didn't say a thing either about the disparaty in the distances two equally accomplished players (score-wise) may be capable of hitting the ball, did he? So we should probaby define things more to carry on this discussion of the ramifications of strategy.

Because it's certainly true that golfers are unequal in a whole variety of things--in their ability to score, in their ability to make sensible risk/reward decisions and in their ability to hit the ball particular distances.

And there are plenty of things that golf offers that compensates for those things like various tees and also the handicap system.

If we want to talk about this subject in a rational and accurate way I would think we might analyze a golf course or even strategies and strategic principles or even strategic formulae in a true apples to apples way.

For that how about looking at the improbable win of Corey Pavin at the US Open at a course like Shinnecock against players that hit the ball much farther than he did? We can look at that in both a design sense of what the course presented him with its strategies and strategic principles and how he managed his own game in a risk/reward context.

Then we can look at the course from the opposite end of the capability spectrum, say a Greg Norman, and analyze what the course presented him with in the same strategic context and how he managed his game in a risk/reward context. And lastly, why a guy like Pavin who is clearly unequal to Norman physically won the tournament? What did the course give him that allowed him to do this and how did he use it! And the same at the opposite end of the distance spectrum with Norman!

Then we can look at and analyze strategic ramifications, principles, formulae and in the actual design of a golf course  in a much more accuate way to encorporate the entire spectrum of golfers capabilities both physically and mentally--particularly when competing at equal distance!

I'm also a little perplexed by Tom Doak's remark, quoted by Jeff Brauer, about how a very good golfer is "too conservative" and how a poor golfer is "too aggressive". And also by B Crosby's remarks about possible ways to equal things out in a design context between a good golfer and a poor golfer. What does Bob mean exactly by "good" and "poor" golfers?

But it seems to me Tom Doak, a clearly execellent designer, should have said a very good golfer "is" conservative and a poor golfer "is" aggresive. That would then be an observable fact and probably a very true one about why a very good golfer is good and a poor one is poor.

But if Tom is saying both are "too much" one way or the other it would seem that Tom thinks it should not be that way and he plans to do something about it in a design context! And if that's what Tom does mean maybe he would be the one to answer this overall question in this thread best. Otherwise, it seems to me to be a very improbable question to answer, maybe even impossible!

Tom might have gotten that sentiment from Pete Dye who clearly may be on a career campaign to torture the very good golfer--but that's another subject altogether and far from how to even things out in a risk/reward design context when you factor in the disparates in the distances golfers hit the ball.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #94 on: January 20, 2002, 07:29:39 AM »
TEPaul,

I have been thinking over your last response for a couple of days.  I post this Sunday morning because we proomised to keep the thread alive for when some return from a busy weekend!

First, I assumed Jones was commenting on two relatively equal tee shots by good players, with one planned and played thoughtfully to the better position, rather than at random.  As to why Pavin beat stronger players, I assume that he both found some advantageous places to play the ball, and that Shinnecock also equally rewarded his short game prowess over stronger players.  Smallish greens with tricky surrounds are, I think, one of the best tools to reward accuracy and cunning over brute strength.

As to Bob Crosby wondering why the Golden Age courses dominate the rankings, I am not sure it has much to do with the original "strategic design" as those bunkers are not in play anymore.  They are hard courses, almost solely because of trees narrowing the fairway, sloping greens at high speeds, and now too short doglegs that force players to work the ball.  I am thinking of Winged Foot as I write this......

Your first paragraph sums up the argument pretty well for non tournament course design.  It is really impossible to cover every possible golfer these days, even with multiple tees, since the disparity is so wide.

And, as in the prevailing wind discussion, the designer must make some assumptions that, if he is lucky, will be present more than half the time (with the wind) and maybe 2% of the time with individual golfers.  I often wonder how many tee shots actually end up within a yard of the theroetical "dog leg" point we put on our drawings and stake in the field.  I know its not many!

Your post goes on to wonder about many things in a general way, and you are correct - they may be unanswerable.  But designers (at least the good ones) spend considerable time on airplanes and alone in hotel rooms, and their thoughts, I assume, turn to all things design related.  At some point, we have to decide what we base our design principals on and make a firm decision each time we design a hole or course.  We need to make a clearly defined decision like Chipoats, who knows he would design a course that did not overly reward the long hitter, for example.

That is perhaps a bold statement, and one not many architects would make that specifically. But am I the only guy in the world, who, after reading a statement like Tom Doak's quote of Crenshaw, "I studied the left to right wind and set the green up for a fade" (approximate quote from above, I can't find it)  who wants the architect to go on and say "by canting the axis of the green to the right."  In other words, be specific?

I have read all the books, and some of the best quotes come from Thomas. Why does he extend fairway beyond the greens on long par 4's?  Because a 3 wood that hits the green and goes long is a better shot than one that comes up short and shouldn't have a tougher recovery.  I like that kind of specificity.  That is why I like this thread so much, so far.

I suppose that other architects are better at marketing than I, and always make it sound as if there design ideas come from sitting at the right hand of God (insert appropriate number of lightning bolts striking Jeff here).  But, I like to be specific.  And of all places, I would think a golf architecture discussion group would encourage specifics!

When I posted some of my specific thoughts on some uses of strategy here, I have to say, I stewed in my own juices a bit when you labeled them as "even some design formulae", as that has some real negative connotations.   >:( Really though, pre thinking your basic philosphy reduces the possible options from infinity to about one million or so when surveying the land before designing a golf hole!  It also helps avoid an unthinkingly unplayable hole later! You have referred to "blank canvass" thinking before, but I think that is acheived with a little canvass preparation in advance!

Anyway, this is the type of thread I enjoy.  As Tom  MacWood says, its always enlightening to see how many different opinions there are on a relatively narrow subject.  I suppose if we debate more - or even all - the narrow subjects in golf design we would be better able to come up with the big picture than looking at the big picture itself! :)

Sorry to ramble, and I will be more specific next time.....if there is a next time.  I'm off to chuch to ask for forgiveness on that "right hand of God remark".  It appears sunny, but I see one dark cloud hanging ominously at the end of the block!





« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #95 on: January 20, 2002, 10:32:13 AM »
JeffB:

That was a wonderful post of yours! The reason, in my opinion, because you are trying to go from general and sometimes vague architectural principles (if one can even say principles) into the more specific applications of those principles and what it takes to apply them and/or create good and interesting strategies and so forth.

That's the direction I love to see these threads go in too because then we all can see how principles are actually envisioned, conceptualized, applied and ultimately function for golf!

Your second paragraph, by the way, says a ton not about specifics but particularly some of the valid ways of looking at the generalities of this entire subject. And that too is good and necessary!

I couldn't agree with you more about the quote from Doak about Crenshaw and how to add all the little design details into a hole on something like a prevailing "fading" wind and the meaning of the slope of the green and anything else that creates interesting and enjoyable strategic ramifications even if they sometimes become complex or even apparently contrary!!

I'm sorry about my mention of these things as sometimes "formulaic"! That's certainly not directed at you, just a general remark. That's something, however, I think about often, and I know you do too! The only reason I say that is I don't believe in standardizing these principles and strategies to such an extent that they ever do become "formulaic".

Some of the great architects and architectural writers that we've all studied and read often speak about these things in the theory! Others like Thomas, Tillinghast, Hunter, Ross to a degree, MacKenzie and certainly Doak talk about it both in theory and also in actual practice--and that's great--that's what we ultimately are looking for to understand this subject.

But the best of them do mention for every design principle or strategic application (or even apparent formula) that the occassional breaking of them can sometimes work as well or better!

The crux of all this, however, has to be--I'm now certain--that an architect cannot do this indiscrimately or for no real purpose!! It all has to make sense in the overall! And that overall may not be easy to define sometimes but may not really be more than how it all affects a player's mind in some way--any player of any ability and might just get even farther down to how the ball flies and bounces and from where, in the end. And do those two things somehow create everlasting fascination and enjoyment (even if mysterious or improbable or seemingly contradictory) or do they create negative criticism and everlasting frustration for some reason? Or, of course, even boredom?

This is sort of the bottom line to me! But you're right, how does one get to that point without wrecking things?

This is why I love Coore's remark that creating good or great holes is like arranging a symphony--there are all these "notes" to use (the "notes" are akin to the myriad of golf's  architectural "features"-bunkers, slope, contour, trees, angles, etc, on and on) and it's all in how you arrange them!! He did go on to say, however, that if a "note" ("feature") is seriously out of place (or unworthy of use in the arrangement) the enitire symphony (hole, strategy, whatever) can be discordant or come crashing down!!

This is what it's all about to me. And I have studied your booklet you kindly gave me and all the "arrangements" you've thought through and listed and use! I need to study them again and more closely because it is a subject that I think needs to be constantly analyzed to avoid the "formulaic". But again I'm not saying that about you, just generally.

As to specifics which you and I want to get to and discuss on here. You mentioned the slope of that green in the Crenshaw "fading" hole with the prevailing wind and if it was a long hole how about mentioning some fairway or recoverable chipping area behind the green since a good or over-good 3 wood should be dealt with in a different way in design than an approach that was not so well hit and did not reach the green. Obviously you're saying give him something less testy behind the green than in front of it! I agree that's the correct way for a designer to think! So a more recoverable chipping area in the rear would be one thing--one feature--one "note"!

But there are some many other "notes" that could be interchanged with that "commensurately recoverable" chipping area back there that could achieve the same basic effect but maybe with differing degress of gray! How about a green-space "kick-up" back there, particuarly if the natural topography allowed it or called for it! How about something partial in that regard back there that could combine both some accuracy requirments with that over-good 3 wood, like a partial "kick-up" rear right with a subtle ridge running along the green front to back from mid-left to rear left taking that shot away to the left behind the green if it was not a particularly accurate shot, albeit solidly hit? There are tons of subtle arrangements to use and combine to accomplish the same basic effect but to also accomplish variety and to avoid the "formulaic".

Or how about the right to left sloping fairway on a left dogleg with the green oriented to the right of the hole and contoured to receive a shot coming right to left (the expected left direction of a shot off a basic hooking/hanging lie)? That's sound principle and sound strategic application depending on what the hole is all about, its length, par, whatever.

But how about mixing that up and creating a green very much oriented to the left of the hole and maybe with very much a fading oriented green off a hooking hanging lie? And maybe even putting no run-up on the hole at all depending on what it is (short par 4 or a par 5 of shortish length or some other combination)? That would seem a bit counter to basic architectural principle, wouldn't it? Maybe so but Augusta's #13 is reknowned and respected despite that apparently contrary strategic application?

Or maybe a hole like Rustic Canyon's #12 with a enormous wide fairway with scarely an architectural feature of any kind on it but a green over to the left that's almost driveable? Most golfers would probably look at the drive as boring or poor design until hopefully they understand that the little open green itself contains all the strategic meaning in and of itself--that that's all there is but a golfer has to understand that even a great drive that has tons of unfettered and unpenal possibilities on that fairway will not work well at all when approaching the hole without considering where the pin is and where the drive should have been? That's basically removing architecture and actually removing strategic indication on a particular shot for maximum ultimate effect. Tom MacWood mentioned this interesting strategic application as astrategic!

Or even Rustic's next hole, an enormously wide and long par 5 that the golfer can play many different ways to reach the approach to the green which all revolves around one small incredibly strategic bunker, although at first it may appear mundane! So it matters little how you get there but when you do get there you'd better be ready. That's the best example of Behr's idea about a central liability that is not immediate but somewhere in the future and that future liability is the sum and substance of what you have to prepare for--almost the entire strategy of the hole--but a very meaningful one.

And on and on--so many possibility to consider-but always  considering that the line is fine that even one design mistake can upset the whole symphony!

But wonderful post of yours!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #96 on: January 20, 2002, 03:59:06 PM »
TEPaul,

Glad I didn't offend too much by using your post as an example of general vs. specific.  The "stew in my own juices" phrase was a favorite of my mother's but I really never got beyond the lowest setting of simmer!  Anyway, glad to have dodged the lightning bolts   :o and live to post another day.

Ben Crenshaw likens design to a symphony.  Maybe it's my personality, but I liken it to comedy in a couple of ways. Comedians build their routines with individual jokes or bits, and tie them together for an entire show.  Several are reptetions of a theme, to tie it all together thematically, but also work as individual jokes.

I think you touch on what I call the "substitution theory" of golf design. One of the reasons a joke is funny is that you set up a very normal situation, and at the end come in with a surprize twist.  (So,  I was sittting in this bar the other day.....) Golf design can work that way, too.  Both in the building a symphony (or comedy routine) out of individual parts, and by recognizing principals of classic golf holes, without having to actually replicate them exactly, when you realize you can substitute other, natural features to get the same effect.  At least, since I like joking around, I like to believe that the comedic process of substition translates into a similarly creative design process - testing out various ideas until  ??? you find one that fits best.  

I think we all, to one degree or another, copy certain aspects of classic holes in design.  I believe some tour pro/designers try to hard to copy some famous hole they played well.  Most designers adapt classic elements to their site.  For instance, your example of substituting a kick back slope (I call it a mini punch bowl) rather than a flat fairway chipping area would acheive the same intended result - encouraging aggressive play and penalizing that miss equal or less than average play - If that is what the topography offered.  That was just one of the good examples you offered up for great strategic play.

Philosophically, I am not as sure about your proposal to build a fade green for a shot that will almost surely come from a hook lie.  To me, its different building a target that encourages failure and building a target that encourages sucess - but punishes different failures differently.  In other words, I believe a target should be sized, oriented, and contoured to hold the most likely shot - and if you follow chipoat's theory, perhaps the two most likely shots!

If those elements make a fair  (ie, reasonably attainable) target, then almost anything in the way of hazards would be fair game.  You could eliminate the run up option on shorter holes, as you suggest, or provide severe hazards.

However, if the green is not attainable by virtue of its internal design - and in many cases, like the Redan, the external design of its approach and surrounds) then even a total abscence of hazards would not make it fair.  Does that make any sense?

Basically,  I would tend to build that green to accept the logical hook, figuring it would take almost superhuman effort for most of us who aren't Tiger to overcome the forces of physics and hit the fade.  On the other hand, if the hole is short, and a good option exists to play to the correct spot of the fairway, perhaps one that is a bit more level, with a little planning and thought, I would not mind substantial hazards.  In that case, I  I would try to punish the over hooked shot more to emphasize the importance of getting to a non hook lie.

Of course, as you say, that is the theory I would use to start, but the land doesn't always suggest the "perfect" theoretical solution.  You have always got to be flexible!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #97 on: January 20, 2002, 08:12:54 PM »
Jeff Brauer, Tom Paul, Dan Kelly, Rich Goodale:

Thanks for keeping the thread going although what could I possibly add to your high-level ruminations of the last 3 days?

Here goes.

Rich:

I'l  bet this is the hardest hole to design, but I really do like to avoid "taking the driver out of the hands" of Old Thunder Buns and making the bunted 1 iron the higher percentage tee shot from a pure risk perspective.  To my mind, equal size landing areas for both options off the tee are the ideal.  However, my sense is that an archirect would have to make a couple of return trips (at the least), and have a "flexible" budget, to get that kind of subtle playability in place.  Perhaps that's why Pinehurst and pre-war NGLA became so marvelous - their architects had ongoing carteblanche to tweak/upgrade/evolve/amend, etc.  I'm told Dye had the same free hand at Crooked Stick for years.

Also Jeff Brauer's "you're screwed" equates to "your relative disadvantage as a short hitter is further accentuated because this hole rewards the longer hitter in several different ways".  I'd like to be with you for your next round at Merion as I think Hugh Wilson did a good job of minimizing that issue.

Dan Kelly

I can think of a number of situations where the Position A is less risky to reach than Position B.  The one's I've already mentioned in this thread are:

Merion #1: fairway gets wider past the bunkers that the long hitter can now carry.

Merion #10: same - even more so.

National #18: fairway is much wider if you can carry the left hand bunker off the tee.  In the beginning, nobody could do it.
Since titantium and Pro V1's, I'm one of the few who can't.

National #17: fairway is wider the further you can carry it over the left grunch.

None of these holes were built this way, BTW.

Jeff Brauer

1)  Everybody but me gets what Dye and you mean about inside-inside and inside-outside.  If you have time, I could use a little more explanation.

2) I think Paul Pro is often times just trying to make the top 125 on the money list - thar's gold in them thar hills!  Do you think Paul Pro was as percentage-oriented in the days when you had to win once a year to make the top 60 and keep your card? Also, Andy Amateur has been a poor thinker all his golfing days - that's one reason he never gets any better.  After all, playing within yourself is boring!

3) I've always liked the notion that "over is safe" on long-ish holes - particularly if there's trouble in front AND/OR if the green is angled such that the most direct approach is generally from the longer route.  I just won't let that concept go, will I?  Regardless, why penalize the aggressive shot when the club being used is not the easiest to hit in the first place?

3a) Having said that, I'll semi-contradict myself and say that a "great" finishing hole might be designed such that chasing a back pin position for birdie is seriously gutsy and could be disastrous.

3b) I must say that "trouble everywhere" on short approaches and short/medium par 3's has lots of appeal.  You don't have to go to Dave Pelz to know how far you hit your short irons, after all.

Anybody:

Here's a couple of other candidates for re-angled greens to make the long hitter think on the tee a bit and eliminate a significant "design advantage".

Merion #'s 1 and 10, Garden City #16, Pebble #3 (although the angle from the "bail out" drive to the right is so wonderfully tough I might let that one slide) and Shinnecock #1.

On the flip side, I think Pine Valley #15, the "original mortal's intent" of NGLA #18 (from the right side off the tee) and Pebble #18 demand the purest "strategic" 2nd shots towards trouble I know to set up the approach angle into the green.  Merion #2 belongs in this group, too as does NGLA #7 and Pebble #14,  I think.  Anybody else have good examples of par 5's like that (might have been a Valley Club example earlier in the thread)?  They strike me as very hard to visualize and construct on a raw piece of land.

Finally, the green angle on #18 at NGLA really does make for a fabulous strategic par 5 as the best angle for the approach is from as close to the right precipice as possible.  If they could figure out a way to defend the long/left tee ball better, I'm sure even MacDonald and Raynor would appreciate the way their original strategy for the hole was preserved.

Thanks for keeping the thread going, guys - hope everybody had a good weekend.

CO
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2002, 09:04:16 AM »
JeffB:

With my example of a design that mixes things up like a fading oriented green with an approach that's primarily off a hooking lie I wasn't being theoretical at all! I was citing as an example of that ANGC's #13 that does exactly that and certainly has become famous, respected and stood the test of time.

Frankly, in my mind, that very much does fit into Chip Oat's ideas about how to counteract in interesting ways the differences in distance (vs accuracy) and in a balancing of risk/reward factors even with distance disparities between players of otherwise comparable ability (score-wise)!

Think about it, that kind of thing just factors in another interesting wrinkle for a long player who may under more normal circumstances be able to hit the ball the given distance there! This way he has to struggle with the added risk/reward factor of having to shape something out of the ordinary or out of his normal comfort zone!

This to me may not make the long player back off all the time but it surely would more often than under more normal design circumstances and even if he does go for it there is more for him to struggle with--so he's more likely to make a mistake with all that! Of course if he can't handle all that risk/reward factoring he will be laying up about where the shorter player most likely will be.

A designer can't do everything but just doing something like that is an awful lot it balancing out the disparities of distance capability!

I like your analogy of a comedian putting together an act in relation to Coore's analogy of a composer putting together a symphony! But it's about the same difference--both are putting together something good with bits and pieces for enjoyment and entertainment!

Actually it's always interested me just how seriously really good comedians take their art!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2002, 09:59:21 AM »
Chip:

Some interesting examples, particularly NGLA's #18. I can think of a couple of things that could defend the hole in the way I think you mean and sort of balance things out a bit between the longman and the shortman.

The first one you may not agree with at all and is sort of subliminal (but I believe has worked well on other holes like this). That would be to simply call #18 a par 4! What that accomplishes is the shortman who has half a brain is far more likely to play the hole as a par 5 anyway, understanding the realities of his distance limitations! Therefore his strategy is far less risky all the way along! The longman, on the other hand, in many cases (most I believe) has his hand forced far more by the psychology of par! Therefore he may be less measured about the real risk/reward variables of that hole!

The other way to balance things out on a hole exactly like that one--actually that one (and this is an example only, I'm not recommeding this for NGLA) would be to put something up in that large fairway area over the left bunker (probably near the middle) that is rather small but highly psychological! This would factor into the longman's thinking as just another worry if he happened to hit it too good, for instance! This could be something like a smallish bunker of moderate penality the chances of getting in would not be real great! It would need to be just enough to get in the longman's head everytime though!

But something like that would be of no consequence at all to the shortman as he could never reach it from the tee and he would have it under the top of his trajectory on his second shot!

I actually have a hole that very much speaks to what you're saying here and it's extremely interesting in that it has evolved from what you like to see to what you don't like to see!

And it isn't just any old hole! It happens to be one of Donald Ross's very favorite short par 4s he ever built! He certainly mentioned it enough! It's the short little dogleg left or elbow hole #15 at Gulfstream G.C.

It is now much like Pine Valley's #12 as the farther you hit the tee ball (with not much risk) the better angle you have into the gut of the green--into its long front to back orientation! Its green is oriented in the same way off the fairway and basic hole direction as PVGC's #12. And the shortman has to carry over a pond fronting the green. And the short man has a wide but very shallow target! The best play for either short or longman from the tee is to hug the left side as much as possible despite a "natural" (unmaintained) bunker all along the left!

So this is the way the hole is and the kind of set-up you really don't like. But the thing that really blew my mind is back in the late 1950s Dick Wilson came in and turned the orientation of this green from just as you do like it to just as you don't like it!

The way Ross designed the hole was to have the length of the green oriented to the short left (shortman risking only accuracy) and the shallow angle to the longman who hit it way down the fairway!

I've always liked the hole the way it is now, but I do agree with you and I think I might like it better the way it used to be! And the thing that blows my mind is the club turned Donald Ross's strategy upside down on one of his favorite short par 4s!


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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