Indiana introducing 'Pete Dye Golf Trail'

[Scott Sander]

Not a surprise and probably wise.  Official announcement happens Thursday (7/28) AM.

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/indiana/indiana-tees-off-new-golf-campaign

The courses:
Kampen - West Lafayette
Mystic Hills - Culver
The Pete Dye Course at French Lick
The Fort - Lawrence
Maple Creek - Indianapolis
Brickyard Crossing - Indianapolis
Plum Creek - Carmel

One clear downside:  French Lick is prohibitively priced, and that will make getting all the passport stamps difficult to impossible for most golfers.

Maple Creek is a very late addition to the list, but it's an intriguing one.  It's billed as Dye's first 18-hole layout and dates to -before- the early career trip to the UK that is said to have so greatly influenced him.

[Matthew Sander]

Scott,

Hey stranger! Very interesting announcement...

 The menu of courses seems to provide a reasonably varied timeline and spectrum of Dye's work. As you mentioned, Maple Creek was early Dye (or earliest to be more accurate), and the French Lick course is one of his most recent. The Fort is one of the more subtle Dye courses I've played, although the terrain is severe in several places. On the other hand, having played Brickyard Crossing for the first time yesterday, I would say that it utilizes some of Dye's more extreme features on a much more ordinary and compact piece of land (if you consider acreage inside the Indianapolis Motor Speedway ordinary!).

[Andy Troeger]

I've played the first four in Scott's listing. They are a pretty varied set--The Fort is my favorite and Mystic Hills is a little gem that hopefully will benefit from the publicity. The back nine is pretty darn good, and the front has its moments as well. Kampen is designed to be a championship test--its probably more fun for really good players than someone like me who can be erratic.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

When I opened this, I had different ideas. I was thinking some new construction set like that grotesque set of trash found down south. But putting them together like this for marketing purposes is a really sound idea. Pool funds in order to get more advertising, package together for better deals to the public. Just a good idea on all fronts.

[Scott Sander]

When I opened this, I had different ideas. I was thinking some new construction set like that grotesque set of trash found down south. But putting them together like this for marketing purposes is a really sound idea. Pool funds in order to get more advertising, package together for better deals to the public. Just a good idea on all fronts.

It'll be interesting to see if they expand it in coming years to include other Dye publics already here.
All of them have some interesting back-story, though none are unfiltered Pete.
 
-Sahm is a hardscrabble Indianapolis muni that, I've been told here, is really the handiwork of Alice Dye.  There are a couple of terrific holes and 15 or 16 'others.'
-Eagle Creek is another city-owned muni. It was very tough and -used- to be all Dye.  They broke up the routing and added more holes, though, so it's no longer possible to get an all-Dye experience.

-Forest Park in Brazil.  I know nothing about it.

Also-
-"Dye's Walk" is a private that includes his first-ever 9 with an added 9 from Gary Kern.  It's not public, but it has been and could be again. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Andy:

Agree with you on Mystic Hills, its a fun course that has a some great features.  If I'm not mistaken, I think its a Pete and PB Dye co-design.

In addition to being a golf bargain (believe I paid $27 to walk 18), there are several standout holes:

#4 - Par 4 - playing generally downhill to a green that runs away from the fairway
#8 - Par 3 - some dell like features to this hole
#10 - Par 4 - short downhill drivable par 4 where getting off line can be costly
#12 - Par 3 - using the bank to the right of the green can create some fun shots
The long Par 4/short Par 5 combo of 13 and 14
#16 -Par 5 - reminds me of 11 at Lawsonia
#17 - Par 3 - Punchbowl
#18 - Par 4 - extreme uphill approach can call for some creativity if you're left with a shot that won't have the height to clear the hill

[Dale_McCallon]

Is a stay at the casino still required for access to the French Lick Course? 

I know we have had this discussion on here before, but the pricing of that course just seems outrageous.  That price falls in line w/ the Pebbles and Pinehursts of the world..is French Lick really that type of destination.  It certainly doesn't seem like the type of place people could come home and brag about to their buddies.

[PCCraig]

A very good idea that hopefully brings some attention to the really good public golf in Indiana, Dye designs and otherwise.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is a stay at the casino still required for access to the French Lick Course? 

I know we have had this discussion on here before, but the pricing of that course just seems outrageous.  That price falls in line w/ the Pebbles and Pinehursts of the world..is French Lick really that type of destination.  It certainly doesn't seem like the type of place people could come home and brag about to their buddies.

For one, the course is a casino course and they are very generous with their comps.  For two, Mr. Cook, one of the most generous people in the history of Indiana and visionary of the resort passed away this year.  The future of the $350 green fee is interesting to speculate over.  I see this as a first step towards more affordable play.

[Dale_McCallon]

John,

I thought you might pipe in on this since I knew you were from that area.  I knew that the owner had been a very generous man to the state, and as a private industry I could care less if the greens fee is $3500; he has that right and more power to him. 

I was just suprised when the place opened and announced their fees.  I just never though of French Lick as a place where money was thrown around like that.

Have you played the course?  I love the look of the Ross course, not so enamored by the photos of the Dye course.  But, I've never played either one.  I would like to get up there sometime.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

I thought you might pipe in on this since I knew you were from that area.  I knew that the owner had been a very generous man to the state, and as a private industry I could care less if the greens fee is $3500; he has that right and more power to him. 

I was just suprised when the place opened and announced their fees.  I just never though of French Lick as a place where money was thrown around like that.

Have you played the course?  I love the look of the Ross course, not so enamored by the photos of the Dye course.  But, I've never played either one.  I would like to get up there sometime.

Yes, I have played the Dye course twice.  I love it to death and wish I could play far more often.  If you spend one evening at the casino playing $25 action you can play the course for free.  The same action in Vegas will get you $100 in comps so the retail greenfee of $350 is simply there to make their gamblers feel more special.   

I have played the Ross course every year for the last 35 years.  I love it too but am now disappointed in how popular it has become.  The tee sheet is now full with the one thing worse than resort golfers.  Gambling resort golfers.  To put it mildly, Larry Bird is still the best looking man, or woman to grace the shores of French Lick, and it doesn't even have a lake.

I no longer gamble enough to get comped at the Dye course and will most likely not play there again until the fees are reduced.  Patience, I give it two years to get below $200.

[Andy Troeger]

JK,
Perhaps you can give me some insight into what you like about the Dye Course at FL? From a playing standpoint I didn't care for the narrow fairways with the moguls and huge drop offs and aesthetically its just bizarre to me how he cluttered the landscape with tons of tiny bunkers, especially the volcano bunkers to the right of #2. Some of the views are truly spectacular, especially when the golf course gets out of its own way. One "plus" is that the rough tends to be rather variable--there are lot of places where you can miss fairways and get away with it, but a course where the strategy is just to hope to get lucky when you inevitably miss fairways (for the majority of golfers) isn't one I'd seek out. The greens are interesting and varied.

I can't get it in my head how its rated ahead of Crooked Stick and Wolf Run on the current state list. The Ross Course on the other hand is a gem that probably merits Top 100 Classic status.

[Nick Campanelli]

From a playing standpoint I didn't care for the narrow fairways with the moguls and huge drop offs and aesthetically its just bizarre to me how he cluttered the landscape with tons of tiny bunkers, especially the volcano bunkers to the right of #2. Some of the views are truly spectacular, especially when the golf course gets out of its own way. One "plus" is that the rough tends to be rather variable--there are lot of places where you can miss fairways and get away with it, but a course where the strategy is just to hope to get lucky when you inevitably miss fairways (for the majority of golfers) isn't one I'd seek out. The greens are interesting and varied.

Andy, the tight fairways and floating bunkers / moguls are all intentional and were the main component in Pete's philosophy with the routing (he told me multiple times, pointing this out on nearly every hole when we played there this past May).  While many of us can relate, he believes the average golfer struggles to get the ball air-born consistently from tight lies (i.e. firm, highly maintained fairways like those at French Lick).  With the high maintenance budget at FL, he was allowed the ability to design using tight fairways and graduated rough, allowing most golfers the ability to recover rather easily if they find the rough.  Most of the greens are receptive to approaches with little to no spin intentionally as a result.  This also explains the floating bunkers that sit 20-30yds off the fairway.  Those same bunkers would be against the fairways on most resort courses.  

Regarding the cost to play there, Pete said he begged the powers that be to make the course affordable for the average Joe.  As you can see, they did not listen.  We were one of four groups on the course that sunny SATURDAY, and you could tell it bothered him that more people werent there.  On the other end, the lack of rounds makes for a very prestine playing experience.      

I haven't had time to do my usual course reviews, but here are links to photos for both French Lick and Crooked Stick for comparison (all holes)

French Lick (Pete Dye Course)
http://s808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/PSUGolfNut/French%20Lick/?albumview=slideshow

Crooked Stick
http://s808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/PSUGolfNut/Crooked%20Stick%20GC/
  

[Andy Troeger]

Nick,
Thanks for sharing. I admittedly like a lot of Mr. Dye's work a great deal, but I think he missed the boat completely on this one. Its a really odd philosophy to me--if you'd rather be in the rough to avoid the tight lies then why even build fairways? It doesn't really make any sense. I didn't get the sense that you could purposely aim for these places in the rough that would be reasonable recoveries (especially if you aren't good enough to hit the fairways to begin with), so its just a random draw as to whether you end up in an easy recovery spot or on the side of a huge hill or in a pot bunker. I'm all for a bit of luck, but I'd have a hard time pinpointing a strategy in playing the course, especially since its a resort course that will probably get most of its play for folks who won't be back regularly enough to really learn its nuances. Its very tough to know where to aim the first time around given the movement and angles of the fairways. I have to admit, while I admire Mr. Dye as a man who has built some tremendously thoughtful courses, I just don't get this one.

Crooked Stick is a great place--one of the first great courses I played and a very memorable round.

[Mark Saltzman]

Nick,

I understand the explanation about graduated rough, though I agree with Andy that it seems a bit bizarre.  But, I still don't understand the floating, cool/terrible (take your pick) looking bunkers.  How are these easier to play from for someone who can't get the ball airborne? And isn't the there a pretty high possibility of having a ball land on the side of one of these mounds, thereby leaving the guy who can't get the ball in the air with an impossible shot?

[Nick Campanelli]

Andy / Mark, let me clarify that i'm not sure i agree with the approach either.  I found myself letting loose on nearly tee knowing odds were my favor to miss most of the bunkers.  The only tee shot I laid back on was the second. 

Personally, I think the "ant hills" look better in professional pictures than they do in person.  The second hole is the only hole which has those bunkers.  Its a short par 4, and the ant hills are located right where you would miss your drive right.  Mr. Dye wanted to guarantee that you wouldn't have a level lie if you missed there....mission accomplished if you ask me.  Could he have done a differently?  Of course, but I think its definitive unique standing on the tee and seeing them in the distance.  Frankly, i think the miss left there is worse on that hole (blind uphill approach).   

One good thing about the tight fairways is that they wont need to be adjusted when the PGA goes there 

Scott, my apologies for getting this thread off-topic. 

[Matt Kardash]

Regarding those mounds on #2 at french Lick. When I saw those conical mounds in Ran's review of the Greenbrier course i could not help but think of the mounds at the Dye course. Ran wrote that Raynor basically had large piles of rock there and instead of transporting them just grassed them over. Well, at French Lick I read in a Dye interview that those were originally just piles of dirt that were put there (and I ultimately going to be moved and used elsewhere), but he just kind of liked the way they looked there and decided to grass them and add bunkers on top. So I ask you this, why does everyone here think these mounds are a golf design crime, yet Raynor leaving the mounds at the Grienbrier are surely seen as an interesting quirk? And remember, Raynor and MacDonald are Dye's FAVOURITE golf builders, so surely he is aware of these types of features they built. Why is he not allowed to do it? And to be perfectly fair, the conical mounds at Greenbrier probably look even sillier than the Dye mounds.

To be clear, I have not played either courses. From Nick's pictures French Lick does seem like it has a lot of interesting holes. I admit, the constant of having a ravine to contend with on one side of the hole is probably pretty draining.

What I found interesting in seeing Nick's two photo tours of Crooked Stick and French Lick is not at how different they are (and yes, they are), but in a way, how similar they are. There are a lot of elements and features of these two courses that I think are more similar than you might expect. Or maybe I am crazy  

[Andy Troeger]

I can see the comparison between the Greenbrier mounds and the ones at French Lick. Both are really strange IMO, but I've never been to the Greenbrier to see those in person. I have to admit that putting bunkers on top of the mounds makes them far more strange than just a weird shaped mound, but that's just me.

In looking through the French Lick photo tour I am reminded that the clubhouse is really an amazing building and the views from up there of almost the entire course are really cool. I think the course looks better from the air. Its interesting that from the tees its over difficult to discern where the fairway actually runs. I would guess this messes with the heads of the better players more than anyone else.