What can golf learn from baseball?

[Jerry Kluger]

I grew up an avid baseball fan but today I cannot watch a game on TV and I get bored at the stadium.  I think that golf is also a tough game to watch.  Baseball takes so long between pitches and isn't very exciting unless someone hits the ball. (I know that purists love watching a pitcher throwing a shutout but not me.)  Golf takes so long for a player to go through his or her preshot routine and then most of what we see is putting which to me is not very exciting.

I think that it is fairly evident that baseball has dialed back the ball as pitchers are now dominating hitters.  The Phillies have the best record in baseball but don't have a 300 hitter and neither do the Yankees.  The only real exception are the Red Sox.  The game just isn't that exciting for the casual fan.

Many people are advocating that we dial back the golf ball and here is where the difference is.  If we dial back the ball the game will become more exciting as players will have more difficult shots into greens and more difficult recovery shots which will certainly be more interesting to watch than putting.

Do you agree?

[Ben Sims]

Jerry,

I agree with your premise, but here is the true key difference.  Baseball has instilled a culture in which it's okay to have differing levels of equipment.  The bat has been regulated and it suits that game well.  I think golf has to come to grips with one of two realities

1)  You either regulate the ball at the highest levels and let the amateurs and lower echelons play with whatever juiced-up ball they wish--like baseball does with bats.

or

2)  You accept that par is just a random number and forget trying to regulate scores by lengthening and/or tightening golf courses.

I don't agree that the game becomes more exciting to watch if the recoveries are more difficult/common.  The reality of the modern professional game is that equipment technology and better physiology has made the "super shot" something we see on a week to week basis on tour.  Remember, baseball's popularity was at it's highest statistically when 'roiding was at it's most rampant.  Golf is no different.  Power game = ratings.  

With that said, I think you should never try and confuse the popularity and fun of golf for the masses with the ratings of a given a tournament on television.

[Joe_Tucholski]

So I'm not really going to talk about the ball because I think the reason baseball has moved away from the dominant home run hitter of the late 90's early 2000's is because of changes in "supplement" testing.  


I will say there is still something to be learned from baseball.  When talking about going to watch a baseball game at the stadium there are really only 2 stadiums that I enjoy.  Wrigley and Fenway.  The two oldest stadiums in baseball have the best atmosphere, the most history and just a unique feeling to them.  Conversely many have argued that moving the Yankees to their new stadium was a terrible move.  I think the same can be said about my interest in watching professional golf.  I like watching when the stops are at courses with history.  Keep history keep the nostalgic feeling and you maintain interest.

[David_Tepper]

"The game just isn't that exciting for the casual fan."

Jerry K. -

What hard data/evidence do you have for making that statement? Has MLB attendance dropped over the past 5 years? Is TV viewership declining?

Is it possible that more stringent policing of steroid consumption has accounted for the drop off in offense, rather than  "baseball has dialed back the ball?"

DT  

[Joe_Tucholski]

"The game just isn't that exciting for the casual fan."

Jerry K. -

What hard data/evidence do you have for making that statement? Has MLB attendance dropped over the past 5 years? Is TV viewership declining?

Is it possible that more stringent policing of steroid consumption has accounted for the drop off in offense, rather than  "baseball has dialed back the ball?"

DT  

David I know you asked Jerry the question but I'm going to give some evidence supporting my claim that history, and general feeling pertaining to the venue are important.  The avg attendance at each of the last three years in the old Yankee stadium ranged from 52K-53K.  The three years in the new stadium the avg attendance has been between 44K-46K.  Obviously there are other factors that likely contribute to this decline but when the new stadium opened many articles document the unhappy fans.

[Kalen Braley]

Even though its not a large delta, I think the time to complete has something to do with it.

In the 70s, the average game took 2.5 hrs to complete.  In the last decade, that average has moved to almost 3 hrs.  And playoff games in the current era move at a snails pace, averaging nearly 3.5 hrs to complete.

I think the between extra TV breaks, pitcher changes, batters stepping out of the box after each pitch has certainly has certainly been a detriment to the game.

The parallel here being to golf rounds going from 3.5 to 4 hrs to complete being "normal" to now where 5 hours seems to be the norm.

[Emile Bonfiglio]

Many people are advocating that we dial back the golf ball and here is where the difference is.  If we dial back the ball the game will become more exciting as players will have more difficult shots into greens and more difficult recovery shots which will certainly be more interesting to watch than putting.

Do you agree?

I would not mind seeing a 10% rollback across the board (ball and clubs) just enough to keep many great courses relevant with all the new equipment.

[Gary Slatter]

Interesting Jerry.  Golf Channel's european broadcasts often have periods where they seem to put two hours golf into one hour's broadcast, you can see this from the various clocks on the tees. When they are doing this it is better TV for sure.
The golf course also is very important - Carnoustie will be great fun for the women.

As to baseball, I prefer TV vs. going to the game (appears to be a BlueJay problem). You see and hear so much, and nothing beats the battle between a pitcher and a batter, anticpating the pitch type etc is good TV.

[David Kelly]

David I know you asked Jerry the question but I'm going to give some evidence supporting my claim that history, and general feeling pertaining to the venue are important.  The avg attendance at each of the last three years in the old Yankee stadium ranged from 52K-53K.  The three years in the new stadium the avg attendance has been between 44K-46K.  Obviously there are other factors that likely contribute to this decline but when the new stadium opened many articles document the unhappy fans.

Yes the Yankees attendance is down from where it was in 2008 but there are a few factors involved in why the attendance is down.

1) the capacity of the new Yankee Stadium is only 50,000 and 52,000 counting standing room only seats.  The capacity of old Yankee Stadium was 57,000 for baseball so there is a ceiling for how many people can attend a game now.

2) the seats in new Yankee Stadium are a lot more expensive than in the old Stadium.

3) the Yankees only drew more than 50K a game from 2005-08.  Except for that 4 year period the Yankees attendance is higher than it has ever been.  Here is the attendance averages when they won their most recent 5 World Series:
1996 - 28,136
1998 - 36,848
1999 - 40,651
2000 - 38,193
2009 - 45,918

So there is no attendance problem for the Yankees, at least one that cannot be explained away.

BTW, the Yankees suck.

[Bill_McBride]

"The game just isn't that exciting for the casual fan."


What hard data/evidence do you have for making that statement? Has MLB attendance dropped over the past 5 years? Is TV viewership declining?

Is it possible that more stringent policing of steroid consumption has accounted for the drop off in offense, rather than  "baseball has dialed back the ball?"

DT  

Every Giants game sold out year to date.  Lousy offense, great pitching.   They do love our Giants!

[Kalen Braley]

If anyone is interested here is a good site...

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/attendance.htm

Attendance is up more than double league wide just by a quick glance at the stats when comparing 1970-1979 to 2000-2010.

[Jerry Kluger]

Okay, you guys really believe baseball is a better game when less runs are scored - I don't.  Do you think golf is more interesting watching putting or recovery shots - I vote for recovery shots.  My point is that the rollback of the ball in golf will make the game more interesting to watch but I don't think that is the case with baseball.  Baseball had great offense before the performance enhancing drugs and in fact, players weren't even taking care of themselves physically but the game was exciting.  Now I try and watch a game and I have to hope to see more than 3 runs being scored. 

[Pete_Pittock]

If anyone is interested here is a good site...

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/attendance.htm

Attendance is up more than double league wide just by a quick glance at the stats when comparing 1970-1979 to 2000-2010.

Kalen,
They've built great ball parks and gotten rid of the multi-purpose dumps plus the US population has doubled.

[David_Tepper]

Jerry Kluger -

I didn't say whether I enjoyed a low scoring game more or less than a high scoring game.  

You are the one who made the assertion that "the game isn't that exciting for the casual fan."

I simply asked you if you had any evidence or data to support your otherwise subjective opinion.

As Bill McBride has noted, the SF Giants are among the very lowest scoring teams in MLB this season and they are very likely going to sell well over 3,000,000 tickets this year to the best modern (and possibly the best overall) stadium in baseball.

DT

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think trying to watch the ball fly through the air in painful to watch. There needs to be a break through like the ball tracker so they can show the player hitting and then trace the ball as it flyies and jump to it when it lands. I can only watch the majors and those few events at Pebble Beach or another classical course.

[Joe_Tucholski]

David I know you asked Jerry the question but I'm going to give some evidence supporting my claim that history, and general feeling pertaining to the venue are important.  The avg attendance at each of the last three years in the old Yankee stadium ranged from 52K-53K.  The three years in the new stadium the avg attendance has been between 44K-46K.  Obviously there are other factors that likely contribute to this decline but when the new stadium opened many articles document the unhappy fans.

Yes the Yankees attendance is down from where it was in 2008 but there are a few factors involved in why the attendance is down.

1) the capacity of the new Yankee Stadium is only 50,000 and 52,000 counting standing room only seats.  The capacity of old Yankee Stadium was 57,000 for baseball so there is a ceiling for how many people can attend a game now.

2) the seats in new Yankee Stadium are a lot more expensive than in the old Stadium.

3) the Yankees only drew more than 50K a game from 2005-08.  Except for that 4 year period the Yankees attendance is higher than it has ever been.  Here is the attendance averages when they won their most recent 5 World Series:
1996 - 28,136
1998 - 36,848
1999 - 40,651
2000 - 38,193
2009 - 45,918

So there is no attendance problem for the Yankees, at least one that cannot be explained away.

BTW, the Yankees suck.

I was expecting the financial crisis in 2008 to be the top reason to poke a hole in the numbers I provided (somewhat related to number 2).

[John Kavanaugh]

I am not interested in making the game more difficult for me so I can enjoy watching it more on TV.

[David Kelly]

David I know you asked Jerry the question but I'm going to give some evidence supporting my claim that history, and general feeling pertaining to the venue are important.  The avg attendance at each of the last three years in the old Yankee stadium ranged from 52K-53K.  The three years in the new stadium the avg attendance has been between 44K-46K.  Obviously there are other factors that likely contribute to this decline but when the new stadium opened many articles document the unhappy fans.

Yes the Yankees attendance is down from where it was in 2008 but there are a few factors involved in why the attendance is down.

1) the capacity of the new Yankee Stadium is only 50,000 and 52,000 counting standing room only seats.  The capacity of old Yankee Stadium was 57,000 for baseball so there is a ceiling for how many people can attend a game now.

2) the seats in new Yankee Stadium are a lot more expensive than in the old Stadium.

3) the Yankees only drew more than 50K a game from 2005-08.  Except for that 4 year period the Yankees attendance is higher than it has ever been.  Here is the attendance averages when they won their most recent 5 World Series:
1996 - 28,136
1998 - 36,848
1999 - 40,651
2000 - 38,193
2009 - 45,918

So there is no attendance problem for the Yankees, at least one that cannot be explained away.

BTW, the Yankees suck.

I was expecting the financial crisis in 2008 to be the top reason to poke a hole in the numbers I provided (somewhat related to number 2).

You're right, that is also a reason but it probably affects the Yankees way less than just about any other team I would think.

[William_G]

I grew playing little league and all the way thru High school, followed all the players and went to 2 or 3 world series in Oakland. Following teams and players was easy as there wasn't as much trading, no free agents etc... Now we have so many trades and has been widely agreed, that we are baically watching uniforms play the game as opposed to players, albeit there are exceptions. So need less to say, I have lost 99% of my interest in pro basebal due to a lack of ease of following the players/personalities and teams.

I see the same happneing in golf. While there are personalities out there, it is hard to see them, as most everybody is a logo or a brand as opposed to a real person or personality, except for the Pink Panther, Ricky Fowler, etc... How bout those shades that many players wear some 100% of the time regardless of some medical condition??? The swings are becoming uniform, the pre shot routines are copied, just saying...

Also, golf on TV could be so much better, we have the technology, why not use it more are the cameras really that expensive to not offer shot tracer on every shot?

We need more Darren Clarkes, thanks.

[John Kavanaugh]

What possible excuse does anyone have for being home on the couch between 3 and 5 on a Sunday afternoon?  That demo will tune to any piece of crap no matter how it is presented.

[David Kelly]

Okay, you guys really believe baseball is a better game when less runs are scored - I don't. 

Like in most things I take the long view.  Its cyclical.  Offense is certainly down - runs per game is at its lowest since 1992 - but there are a number of reasons probably, none of which I suspect have anything to do with the ball. After all why would MLB want to suppress scoring and drive down attendance? What could possibly be the motive?

One reason is that PEDs have been cleaned up from the game and there are now penalties in place for failed PED tests.

But the other big reason is the tremendous advancements in defensive statistics and measurement brought on by the advent of the FIELDf/x technology. Teams are using this to compile stats that measure defensive ability (a part of baseball statistics that have lagged way behind those of hitting and pitching) better and to be able to position players better on the field.  This has lowered the hitters batting average on balls in play a lot.  Look at the trend (best exemplified by Boston and and TB) of loading up on highly skilled defensive players.

Hopefully we are nearing the bottom of the trough in runs scored and not breaking through down to 1972 or 1968 levels.

[Kalen Braley]

Call me old school.

But I'd much rather see The Giants beat the Rockies in a 3-2 game....

....as opposed to watching the "49ers" beat the "Broncos" with a 14-10 football-esque type score.


There is certainly a lot more tension, strategy, and chess moves in the former as opposed to the latter!

[Jerry Kluger]

Kalen: When the strategy is a 6 inning "quality start" followed by a series of pitching changes based upon the premise that a left handed pitcher has to pitch to a left handed batter, etc., the game gets long and boring. No one in baseball is going to admit it but I still have my belief that part of the reason for the low scoring is the ball. Maybe they want to showcase the pitchers as the hitters don't seem to be getting any better.  And how about the pitching signs from the dugout - that sure speeds up the game and makes it more exciting.

[Tim Martin]

I grew playing little league and all the way thru High school, followed all the players and went to 2 or 3 world series in Oakland. Following teams and players was easy as there wasn't as much trading, no free agents etc... Now we have so many trades and has been widely agreed, that we are baically watching uniforms play the game as opposed to players, albeit there are exceptions. So need less to say, I have lost 99% of my interest in pro basebal due to a lack of ease of following the players/personalities and teams.

I see the same happneing in golf. While there are personalities out there, it is hard to see them, as most everybody is a logo or a brand as opposed to a real person or personality, except for the Pink Panther, Ricky Fowler, etc... How bout those shades that many players wear some 100% of the time regardless of some medical condition??? The swings are becoming uniform, the pre shot routines are copied, just saying...

Also, golf on TV could be so much better, we have the technology, why not use it more are the cameras really that expensive to not offer shot tracer on every shot?

We need more Darren Clarkes, thanks.

What other sport could an overweight, hard drinking, cigarette smoking party boy type be so embraced as Darren Clarke has been in golf? There was a time if I recall that we had a similar idol and his name was George Herman Ruth. People relate to these guys because they are real and easy to root for but don`t hold your breath for a steady stream of these types of characters because they just are not out there.

[Bill_McBride]

What possible excuse does anyone have for being home on the couch between 3 and 5 on a Sunday afternoon?  That demo will tune to any piece of crap no matter how it is presented.

No DVR?