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Melvyn Morrow

Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2011, 11:21:45 AM »
Ally

I do not know, never actually checked, but I would say quite a few, as for Glasgow, Niall is the Glasgow King, I do not go there unless I have my minders and passport with me  ;)

Melvyn

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2011, 12:04:42 PM »
Quote
What no mention of Blackheath GC 1608 so much for the modern researcher, missed the oldest club, wow

Royal Blackheath write on their website:

Quote
no documentary evidence of this inception date has yet been unearthed (and no explanation offered for the selection of 1608 rather than 1603) since the Club's accounts prior to 1787, and the minutes prior to 1800, are missing.

By scientific standards 1608 is a complete fabrication :)

Ulrich
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 12:06:34 PM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Dave McCollum

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Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2011, 01:52:47 PM »
Troy—That’s exactly how golf got started here in the Snake River Canyon in Idaho.  Much later than back east and in GB&I—1949, I think.  The club was organized as a picnic and fishing retreat beside the Blue Lakes and gushing springs.  They leased some land, built a shack, and hung out for awhile before they got the idea of scraping out some golf.  True to tradition, Melvyn, they looked around and found a Scotsman to walk around and drive some stakes.  Most of the rest they did with farm implements, volunteer labor, and donated supplies.

RSLivingston_III

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Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2011, 02:24:02 PM »
I am not clear as to what is meant by a 'country outing'.
Everything I have read indicated golf was a fairly formalized game/sport and when played was rarely approached in a casual manner.

There also seems to be some confusion about the early founding of country clubs in the US. In the vast majority of cases, it appears golf was an add-on to established club activities.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 02:46:36 PM by RSLivingston_III »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2011, 02:32:37 PM »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Troy Alderson

Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2011, 02:52:40 PM »
I am not clear as to what is meant by a 'country outing'.
Everything I have read indicated golf was a fairly formalized game/sport and when played was not approached in a casual manner.

There also seems to be some confusion about the early founding of country clubs in the US. In the vast majority of cases, it appears golf was an add-on to established club activities.

I am referring to early golf being an excursion into the country side to get away from the city life, much like today a family may go to the lake for the weekend and/or go camping.  The golfers at the time may have been better off financially, so may have kept the outing more formal, much like a family with money may go camping in a luxury motorhome or stay at a hotel in a national park as opposed to hiking in and camping in a tent.

So I am wondering if marketing golf as an exscape from the city life may work to increase play and revenue, bringing in people that normally want nothing to do with a so called bane of environmentalism.  That is why I would like to see all golf courses move more towards a more natural rougher look and not so higher manicured.

Troy Alderson

Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2011, 02:53:59 PM »
Troy—That’s exactly how golf got started here in the Snake River Canyon in Idaho.  Much later than back east and in GB&I—1949, I think.  The club was organized as a picnic and fishing retreat beside the Blue Lakes and gushing springs.  They leased some land, built a shack, and hung out for awhile before they got the idea of scraping out some golf.  True to tradition, Melvyn, they looked around and found a Scotsman to walk around and drive some stakes.  Most of the rest they did with farm implements, volunteer labor, and donated supplies.

What course are you referring to Dave?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2011, 02:57:29 PM »
Ulrich

King James the VI of Scotland is the reason these islands are called UK. On the death of Elizabeth I, the Scottish King the Stuart King James VI of Scotland became King James 1st became King of England.

This King of Scotland was known as a golfing king and the game came down with him. For some reason I would not suddenly expect the new King on his move to London in 1603 to suddenly decide to open a golf club that year as I am certain he had other things on his mind – perhaps first securing the thrown. By 1608 most of his immediate problems are over, one namely the Gun Powder Plot of 1605, so 1608 fits in well the dates of a new king and the game coming to London.

Later dates in the 1700’s are not right because for most of that century Scotland and its game was not well liked in England, many Scots being deported to the West Indies as SLAVES due to two rebellions (1715 & 1745) against another strand of the Stuarts family who came over from Germany, hence why people think the current House of Windsor are German. No Golf playing king was known around the 1787, as George III was considered mad leaving his son the Prince Regent - who was interested in having fun and building Brighton Pavilion, not playing golf.

There ends the history story.

Melvyn

PS You now have an explanation offered for the selection of 1608 rather than 1603 even back then its took time to resolve.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 05:13:33 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2011, 06:11:33 PM »
Yes, it seems plausible that James would have played golf in England at some point during his reign. And a club with a "Royal" designation might have sprung from it. Then again, maybe not. There appears to be no evidence for any early 17th century golfing activity in England except word of mouth (call it oral tradition, sounds better ;-)

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Kyle Harris

Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2011, 07:35:22 PM »
Mike Cirba/Melvyn/All:

Some good thoughts coming out of this thread.

Speculation:

Golf was more widespread in Scotland than reported because the only formalized organizations existed for any number of reasons -  perhaps because those links were the most popular over which to play? Therefore routing a golf course was necessary for safety and formalized competition.

Was the game really all that expensive.... and that's a serious question. The victors write the history.

End of speculation.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2011, 08:25:37 PM »

Kyle

It’s the cost of BALLS, always was and always will be, but let’s get back to the subject. The Featherie ball was very expensive, from memory when the gutty came in it was 5 times cheaper which helped bring golf to the lower classes or to give you a better example allows people like Kalen to play.  ;)

It was the cost of the Featherie and its poor performance when wet, the gutty stabilized the game making it totally worthwhile designing a golf course i.e. the ball would roll straight, keep its shape and floated when in the water. With the reduced cost and stability problem more or less solved it help open the door to more designed courses. The Gutty has or should have an honoured place within the history of the game.

Melvyn

Scott Warren

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Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2011, 08:48:34 PM »
Melvyn,

Quote
This King of Scotland was known as a golfing king and the game came down with him. For some reason I would not suddenly expect the new King on his move to London in 1603 to suddenly decide to open a golf club that year as I am certain he had other things on his mind – perhaps first securing the thrown. By 1608 most of his immediate problems are over, one namely the Gun Powder Plot of 1605, so 1608 fits in well the dates of a new king and the game coming to London.

Wow, if that isn't wildly speculative, I'm not sure what is. To use your own words: so much for the modern researcher.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2011, 09:12:58 PM »

Scott

For once instead of trying to belittle someone’s post with wise cracks when are we going to see something constructive from you.

James’ son was a keen golfer, who knows he might be the one to put Blackheath on the map, why don’t you assist for a change and go and find out, do some constructive research, or is that just not in your nature - Cheap shots are just that cheap.

Melvyn

Scott Warren

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Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2011, 11:23:00 PM »
Melvyn,

I spend my entire days researching for my work. A lot of pre-Golden Age golf research doesn't interest me greatly because there is too much grey area and it's hard to come to definite conclusions, as your post above clearly demonstrates.

Unlike, say, genealogy searches, in which it takes less than an hour to trace definitively the path from Tom and Agnes to Elizabeth and James, Thomas and Jamesina, James and then Melvyn and Geraldine.

If the history of golf were as well-established and recorded as our family bloodlines, these discussions would likely be a lot more fruitful.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2011, 07:13:30 AM »

Scott

I can understand your point of view, but as a golfer with other reasons I have looked into the so called the pre Golden Age pioneers of the game.

In doing so I have realised that the achievements of the pre 1900 golfers/designers was way outside the box and overshadows the so called Golden Age of the 1920’s. These early guys not just set the standard, they made the game accessible to all, they moulded the course from more or less the natural to manmade creating what we have to this day. The classic is TOC, it was changed from the 1820 to the last 1890’s, it’s not a course designed by nature but by the hand and eye of man.

The knowledge lost in just 100-150 years is unbelievable yet when we consider that many clubs kept their records in old timber shacks called Club Houses which in many cases have burn down destroying all the early records. Nevertheless they are for the most part out there, one has just got to look.

Other information available relates to who was commissioned to undertake certain designs and yet were unable for various reasons. Old Tom for Braid Hills, and Kinggussie, then we have the interesting reports of Old Tom sending people to courses to design them – Golfing - ‘James Mackie of St Andrews, who was sent by Tom Morris, went over to Pitlochry course with a view to its extension and improvements’. This is just but one name; the interesting point was this an Old Tom company effort or was it just a recommendation as Old Tom was want to do. There are many stories outthere. Also when searching for Askernish information to discover that another site albeit only 9 Holes was set up to mirror the Askernish scheme, this time in Aberdeenshire at Collieston just a few miles south of Cruden Bay. Also there is a link between, Braid Hills, Askernish, Collieston and Cruden Bay in the name of The Cluny Estates or a Lady Cathcart

Then we have the old lost courses, first finding that they existed, the designers name and then the location, wondering if they could be reborn like Askernish. Sites like ST Leonards Girl School Short 9 Hole Ladies course from 1893 (one of the first course for ladies), the Broughton Ferry Ladies Course, Dundee, Kelvinside Glasgow, Oban first 9 hole course, Dornock (Crieff), Crawford, and the one that has confused many researchers the Old Tom Course on Islay. Many thought that Old Tom had modified Willie Campbell’s Machrie course, but we have found the course map, the location map with course clearly mentioned and the report of its design in the national newspapers of the time. This cleared up much misunderstanding with people like Robert Kroeger and his book The Golf Courses of Old Tom Morris who looked for proof at Machrie.

As you research the Victoria Age, you will come to realise that the later so called Golden Age hardly achieve 1% of what was done in the 19th century. Yes they moved the development and understand further but it was no Golden Age, it was dubbed the Golden Age because no one had actually bothered to research the earlier designers, Some might call that ignorance, I call it not understand the complexity of the game, perhaps because we regards those past days as the Dark Ages.

Dark Ages, why maybe because it is regarded as too penal, too testing and hard, a complete contrast to today where many golfers want the game easy. IMHO betraying the traditions of the game that made it attractive in the first place and which it interested many into playing.

Golf is not just playing it every weekend, yet when questioned on the course or GCA the player looks at you as if you are talking a foreign language. That just a player play his game, a Golfer is one with himself, his game (whatever level) and understand the magic of thinking how he/she is going to navigate the course ahead. If it’s the first time on that course the enjoyment builds as you walk to the first Tee, telling the Caddie not to give any assistance just carry the clubs. For many the challenge of the unknown is worth far more, I have never understood why people want the experience spoiled by outside information that might not even relate to your game. I suppose one could compare it to the wife expecting a baby, do you want to know the sex – no because be it a he or she, that child will be love whatever and it’s the journey you take with mother and child that actually counts.

Deep, perhaps but as you said you believe me too fat to play golf, so I have to direct my interests in other directions (well while I can). I am certain you have far more to offer (than ill-informed comments about my health problems) with your background, but that depends upon you.

Melvyn
     

Scott Warren

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Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2011, 07:43:30 AM »
Melvyn,

Check out the Pine Valley and Topos thread. Even with contemporary accounts we have conjecture.

I think certainty depends greatly on a high level of faith.

And c'mon, I did alright with your bloodline, didn't I?! (except I couldn't find your mum's name anywhere, I only know she is in her mid 80s and lives in Sussex).

A lot is made of your great great grandad, but I reckon your uncle's achievements are at least as impressive.

Dave McCollum

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Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2011, 01:19:44 PM »
Troy-- I'm refering to The Blue Lakes CC in Twin Falls, Idaho.  My own course, Canyon Springs GC, is directly across the Snake River from BLCC and was once part of the The Blue Lakes Ranch, the first settlement in the area, and the property from which both courses eventually emerged.  Today, BLCC is still private; CS is public.  When both courses were still 9 holes back in the 1970's, some talks were held about merging them into one 18 hole facility, but the cultures didn't mesh.  No doubt because of the ownership structures of each: one an equity membership club, the other privately owned by my family.  Eventually, both evolved to 18 holes.

We don't exactly market our courses as a country escape from the city because the closest big city is Salt Lake, 250 miles away.  Boise is the largest metro area in Idaho (120 miles away), but that's still way less than 500K in population.  However, in effect, we both represent something of an escape from Twin Falls, a small town of some 40K in an rural area that might have 100K folks scattered across our market.  The escape comes from dropping down 500 feet into our wild and wooly canyon, a world apart from developed land above.       

Troy Alderson

Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2011, 08:39:33 AM »
Thanks Dave for the info. 

I almost interviewed for the Superintendent position at Clear Lakes but turned it down for financial reasons.  Thank you for the explaination about the proximity of the two courrses.  I was wondering about that when I viewed google maps and mapquest of the area.

I would still think that those two courses are still considered in the country from the Twiin Falls metro area.  And to some Twin Falls is the big city. ;)

By the way, I am close and good friends with the mechanic at Huntington in Driggs.  Helped him get his start.

Troy Alderson

Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2011, 08:41:26 AM »
Thank you all for the comments.  Though I do not believe the sky is falling, the golf industry is.  Finding a way to increase play is important to the industry and I always tend to look to the past for solutions.

We can only learn from the past, not the future.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2011, 08:57:54 AM »

Troy

Man after my own heart - golf has become too complicated on the course; it needs to be returned to the days when the golfer faced the designer with his simple ball and clubs. Courses too are over complicated in all including hazards ill placed for the fairways. It looks like an army detachment is retreating each time back to their final line - the Green when the battle may or may not be fought, gone seem to be the skirmished down the fairway perhaps due to long aerial game played today. Whatever, its slowing down the game and taking that interest out getting many to look to the Hickory game to satisfy their craving for a good game of Golf.

Melvyn


Ralph Thompson

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Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2011, 10:18:32 AM »
Couldnt agree with you more Melvyn. We had four guys from Sweden here at Askernish this week - each had four hickory clubs and a putter. Their quote " the most enjoyable golf they have ever played" and they have played everywhere!
I would love to organise a hickory weekend at Askernish. Does anybody have any contacts for groups that might be interested in attending?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Early golf as an country outing?
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2011, 10:41:49 AM »

Hi Ralph

Yes I know someone who might be of interested, he is a new member here and has his own monthly newsletter.

The contact name is Lionel Freedman his site is http://www.worldhickorygolfer.com/  and his e-mail details are info@worldhickoryopen.com.

If you read his newsletter you will see that they just rein acted Park vs. Old Tom Great Match over the normal four courses.

Love to see the world Hickory Championship at Askernish, speak to Lionel, if he has not noticed this, I'll e-mail him with your details anyway.

Keep well and warm

Melvyn