Pine Valley and Topos

[JESII]

Mike,

I was teasing Tom for mistaking the order of those articles...don't sweat it.

[Tom MacWood]

...PV men greatly admired the philosophies of Herbert Fowler who argued for more stringent shot-making on golf courses, and while they also greatly respected Colt, there was likely some disagreement on how tough to make the course at Pine Valley....

...Fowler prefers courses with no letup in their demands...

...these guy were major disciples of a school of architecture exemplified by Fowler in which their was no letup of challenge, which was one of the tenets of the Pine Valley founders, as well.

Tom MacWood,

Are you telling us that THIS is the guy who wasn't arguing for more stringent golf courses featuring harshly penalizing elements without giving much room to catch one's breath?  

This is further evidence of what some Americans thought of Fowler's penal philosophies, circa 1914, as published in "American Golfer";

Are you still going to tell us that Fowler wasn't viewed as somewhat draconian in his approach at that time, an approach that greatly appealed to Crump and friends??

You are full of crap.

[Tom MacWood]

The December 1914 AG article was taken directly from a report written by Carr. That report was likely written in November, if not earlier. The 13th is a cleek approach, which is consistent with the length of the new 13th (420 yards).

[JESII]

Tom,

How is a cleek approach consistent with 420 yards? And how does that compare with Tillinghast suggest the new hole will likely require a long drive to see anything and a brassey for the approach? What's your logic here?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Obviously, the 13th was always slated to be a par four.

The cleek approach argument is irrelevant, particularly with Tilly telling us it would take a full brassie after a good long drive on the new hole discovered by Crump.

Tom MacWood,

Fowler's own words speak for himself.  

If you have evidence from the 1913/14 timeframe in terms of American perception to his philosophy, please provide it.

I'm content that the case has been made, and there is nothing wrong or insulting about presenting the architectural ideals and course criticisms he put forward.

Similarly, there is nothing wrong with presenting the American Golfer reference to American perceptions of Fowler's philosophy of stiffening courses, as it goes right to the point of how he may have been perceived by the men creating Pine Valley.

[JESII]

Mike,

Aren't the cleek and the brassie close?

What I'm curious about is how he gets to a cleek approach...is it a 220 yard tee shot and a 200 yard cleek? 250 then 170? 180 then 240? Who knows? The problem crops up when Carr also lists the 8th as a mashie approach shot...this is the equivalent of a 5 iron, no? I hit a 5 iron in there once after dead fatting a 3 iron off the tee. I was on the sandy path right next to the Half Way House...tough shot!

[Tom MacWood]

A cleek is equivalent to a two iron or driving iron; a cleek approach is consistent with hole in 410 to 420 yard range. A brassie is equivalent to a 3-wood. The holes that were listed as brassie approaches at PV were 460, 465 and 470 yards respectively. The new 13th hole was 420 yards. The original 13th was probably closer to 320 to 350 yards long.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

A mashie is a mid-iron to wedge, or it's equivalent.

I've seen it used various ways, such as "the hole is too short, only requiring a mashie approach."

[Tom MacWood]

The definition of mashie changed over time. The original definition was a lofted iron club used for pitching with backspin, and then at some point it became an alternate name for the five iron.* It is obvious Carr is using the first definition.

* according to 'The Historical Dictionary of Golfing Terms' by Peter Davies

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

Fowler's own words speak for himself.  

If you have evidence from the 1913/14 timeframe in terms of American perception to his philosophy, please provide it.

I'm content that the case has been made, and there is nothing wrong or insulting about presenting the architectural ideals and course criticisms he put forward.

Similarly, there is nothing wrong with presenting the American Golfer reference to American perceptions of Fowler's philosophy of stiffening courses, as it goes right to the point of how he may have been perceived by the men creating Pine Valley.

I will ask you again...what words? Give us some specific quotes.

[JESII]

Tom,

Your position on this requires us to believe that the discovery of the current 13th hole did not have the effect of immediately turning 14 from a par 4 to a par 3, how do you reconcile that?

I think you're trippin(g) over your desired timeline...

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Those articles are there for you and others to read.    Frankly, I'd be harder pressed to find quotes where he's not arguing that this or that course or hole is too stringent than the opposite.

If we want other opinions, consider Darwin's remarks on the opening of Fowler's (and Simpson) Woodcote Park in 1915;

Apart from the sad record of death, there is really
a little golfing news to tell this month for about a
fortnight ago the Royal Automobile Club's new course
at Woodcote Park near Epsom was opened with a big
professional foursome, Vardon and Braid against
Duncan and Willie Watt, the latter being the professional
to the new club. The course is a fine monument
to the architectural skill of Mr. Herbert Fowler
and his partner Mr. Simpson. It is rather an expensive
one too in these hard times, since it cost in the
making as I am told nearly £27,000. I never saw a
course that made the professionals work harder than
they did on that opening day. Imagine a first circuit
of nine holes, over rather steeply undulating country,
measuring 3,700 yards in length with very little
run in the ground. Add to this picture that the tenth
hole is just under 600 yards long and up hill all the
way and you will understand that the professionals
had to do some pretty solid hitting with the brassey.
To say so much is really unfair to the architects however.
The tees were very far back: and the ground will
soon have much more run in it and that desperate
tenth hole can very easily be shortened. Besides the
last eight holes are not long at all and the holes,
whether long or short, are full of interesting shots.
A little tempering of the wind to the shorn lamb
will soon put things to right. Meanwhile with the
wind not tempered at all, what a time of it those professionals
had for the first nine holes. Braid almost
wrenched himself in two at the waist and hit some of
the most magnificent shots that ever were seen, but
there was no getting up in two and both couples took
43 to the first nine holes in the morning round. Then
Braid and Vardon began to play miraculously well:
they got home in 35, had a lead of three at lunch and
playing remorselessly sound golf all through the
afternoon beat their much younger adversaries by 5 and
4 on the thirty-six holes. Duncan told me that both
he and Braid had put on a stone in weight through
their winter's rest after the hard work of last season,
but I fancy they must have lost a little of it again at
Woodcote.

[Tom MacWood]

Jim
As early as January 1914 the 14th was listed as a par-4. You obviously did not read my post yesterday where I pointed out there appears to have been three versions of 13 on the red and blue map, and the effect it could have had on the 14th. As I've said all along there are a lot of gaps in your information, so I don't know where you get off acting flippantly, as if you do. I'm tired of your attitude....why don't you and your commrades figure it out and report back to us.

Mike
What line or lines from that quote should we focus upon? It sure doesn't sound draconian to me.

By the way you said Fowler's own words reveal penal tendencies...we are still waiting for you to give us his own words. The man was prolific writer certainly you have a wealth of material to present.

[JESII]

Commrades? OK punchy!

To bring you up to speed:

Pat speculated that the creation of the lake was "the linchpin" to finalizing the golf course out there and that the discovery of the 13th greensite and idea to dam the bog to create the lake are "inextricably linked".

I disagree because it's obvious from the articles that the lake was conceived prior to the discovery of the 13th green. I also disagree that the lake would have had an architectural impact beyond the aesthetic improvement over a swamp.

In the context of this conversation what difference does it make how early the 14th was listed as a par 4? I believe the discovery of the 13th green was the last day the 14th was considered a par 4 by Crump.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I'm not going to type out what I've already posted.   People here can read for themselves and decide if Fowler was pushing for more challenging courses designed to keep the best players on their toes.

If time permits in the next few days I'll post an early review of Westward Ho! with pics that make the point, as well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yeah,  I shook my head at that argument of Patrick's, yet another nonsenical one made just to argue. 

I guess, sitting at a computer desk somewhere in Texas enables you to consider yourself more familiar with Pine Valley than those of us who have been on site and studied the course recently.

But, to inject some reality in this discussion, I am 90% or more certain the lake was created because they needed more water for irrigation and the club facilites.  That 90 GPM artesian well wouldn't be enough to even flush a few toilets. 

You don't know if that's the only reason the lake was created.

That lake also provided electricity for the club and great views from the 13th fairway and 14th tee.

I knew that last week when I asked the question, and have since heard from TePaul who says it's in the club records that they started looking for more water for those purposes. 

Didn't David Moriarty and/or Tom MacWood claim that TEPaul provided inaccurate information with respect to what was or wasn't in the club records at Merion ?

Views and what not are a load of crap, really, even if they did exist from 13.

So now YOU are calling Tillinghast a liar ?


Of interest to me is just how short the course would have been if they hadn't lengthened 13, which lengthened 15 as well.

The topo is drawn to scale, ergo that should be relatively easy to figure out.

[Tom MacWood]

Commrades? OK punchy!

To bring you up to speed:

Pat speculated that the creation of the lake was "the linchpin" to finalizing the golf course out there and that the discovery of the 13th greensite and idea to dam the bog to create the lake are "inextricably linked".

I disagree because it's obvious from the articles that the lake was conceived prior to the discovery of the 13th green. I also disagree that the lake would have had an architectural impact beyond the aesthetic improvement over a swamp.

In the context of this conversation what difference does it make how early the 14th was listed as a par 4? I believe the discovery of the 13th green was the last day the 14th was considered a par 4 by Crump.

"Your position on this requires us to believe that the discovery of the current 13th hole did not have the effect of immediately turning 14 from a par 4 to a par 3, how do you reconcile that?"

This is what you wrote a few posts ago. Now you are saying it doesn't make any difference when the 14th was first a par-4?

You would be wrong it was the last day it was considered a par-4 because the Travis drawings show the new 13th hole and a par-4 14th. Have you seen those drawings? That article (featuring the Travis drawings) appeared in American Golfer 8/1915. Like I said before instead of wasting your time and our time with theories based on limited info, please get together with your friends, go over all the evidence you have, and report back with a thoughtful coherent theory taking into account all the known facts, or at least the known facts you and your friends have.

Mike
I just asked you to point out one or two lines that prove your penal point, if that is too hard obviously this another one of your exercises to blow smoke up our asses. Because you've never had problem inundating us all with article after article, over and over and over again. And I'm just asked for you to point out one or two sentences. All of those familiar with Fowler and his designs already knew you were blowing smoke...now so does everyone else. But that is your speciality.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The lake most likely came first.

Then, Crump realized that the view from above, from land that AWT describes as "hidden by nature", filled with timber and undergrowth, would be terrific, thus, the view from that elevated fairway, down to the lake is what inspired Crump to extend the 13th hole, which in turn cause the 14th to be a par 3, transitioning from the higher elevation to the lower elevation.

The Plan for the lake absolutely came first, on that it looks like we agree.

Jim, I don't know that you can establish a finite order.

You don't know if the reasons behind the lake were the water needs, the electric needs and/or the view.
In other words, you can't exclude the others as prudent reasons for creating the lake.

Tillinghast was clear, he stated that Crump revised and extended the 13th hole in order to acquire the panoramic views from the extended portion of the hole.

So, ask yourself, if you claim that the trees weren't cut, or weren't cut sufficiently, what views was AWT refering to ?
A view of more trees and jungle like undergrowth ?
Would that be the inspiration for extending the 13th hole to its present location ?
Why bother, he could get those views by maintaining the status quo.
After all, Tillinghast agreed with Carr, that the land was so thick with timber and underbrush that Nature had hidden it for over two years since they bought the 184 acres.  Does that sound like a desireable view ?
Hardly.

The view he was referencing is of the lake.
Even TODAY, Sept 21, you can see the lake through the trees from the 13th green and the fairway fronting the 13th green.

Pictures of the hillside between # 13 and # 15, taken prior to the construction of # 14 reveal that mostly low lying bushes, bushes well below the sight line to the lake, seem to be the only impediment to viewing the lake.  There's an obvious lack of trees.

It should also interest you to know that the steep hillside to the left of the 18th fairway and behind the 9th green had NO trees on it.
Today, some of those trees are 60-80 feet tall.

I recently saw a picture, taken from the lower tee, not the upper tee, that allows the golfer to see the 13th green.
In order to do that you have to take down the trees on the hillside well below not just the 13th fairway, but below the bunkering that's below the 13th fairway. giving the golfer a good view of the lake below.

I would suggest that you do the following.

Try to recall how steep, how very, very steep the falloff to the left of the fairway on # 13 is.

Then, go to google earth and zero in on the 13th hole.

Then, draw a line from the lower tee (left side) to the left side of the 13th green,

Then admit how wrong you are about the vast amount of trees needed to be cleared in order to provide an uninhibited sight line from the lower tee to the left side of the 13th green.

Then, let me know if you think the view from # 13 fairway and 13th green would provide a beautiful unrestricted view of the lake below

Thanks.
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Commrades? OK punchy!

To bring you up to speed:

Pat speculated that the creation of the lake was "the linchpin" to finalizing the golf course out there and that the discovery of the 13th greensite and idea to dam the bog to create the lake are "inextricably linked".

It's NOT speculation, it's fact.
AWT told you that Crump extended the 13th to capture, not just the view from the extended hole, fairway and green, but a PANORAMIC view.
You and Jeff Brauer seem to claim that it was a panoramic view of more trees and jungle like undergrowth, but, I hardly think a man of AWT's experience would use the word "panoramic" if he wasn't describing a view from an elevated point to a beautiful setting that unfolded in front of him, and the ONLY beautiful setting was that lake.  It certainly wasn't a swamp.  It certainly wasn't the railroad tracks and passing trains.
It certainly wasn't a view of more trees and jungle like undergrowth below him, IT WAS THE LAKE.
What other panoramic view could he capture ?

I disagree because it's obvious from the articles that the lake was conceived prior to the discovery of the 13th green.

You don't know that, you just know the sequence of the reporting.
You don't know if the creation of the lake was for a single or multilple reasons.

I also disagree that the lake would have had an architectural impact beyond the aesthetic improvement over a swamp.

Jim, if I wasn't quoting you, I'd suggest that you edit the above statement as it's one of the most idiotic you've ever made on this site.
The lake is majestic looking, especially as it contrasts with the fairways, green and bunkers adjacent to it.

In the context of this conversation what difference does it make how early the 14th was listed as a par 4?
I believe the discovery of the 13th green was the last day the 14th was considered a par 4 by Crump.

COLT and CRUMP penned/penciled the 14th as a par 3 on this topo.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

I hope you've recovered from your putting and chipping experience in Northern NJ.
I also hope you've recovered from the hors d oeuvres.

I took great pains to examine the land south of the railroad tracks the last two days.

A few notes.

The current 17th tee sits slightly higher than the tracks to the north.
The land falls down in front of the 17th tee, reaching it's low point just a few yards in front of the tee.
The land between # 17 and # 16 begins to rise, just short of the 16th green.
That rise continues up to the 11th tee.
That rise blocks any view from the tracks of the land south of that rise, which includes all of the 16th and 15th fairway.
In addition, the landform begins to rise similiarly on the right side of the fairway, such that the entire 17th fairway and green are obscured from any view directly north of them.

I also looked at the land from the elbow of the 1st fairway to the green, understanding that the green is built up toward the rear.
That part of the 1st fairway is elevated well above the tracks making any views from the tracks, blocked by the land form.

What's also interesting is that when you stand on the 2nd tee, and look to the west, at the undeveloped land to the right of the 2nd tee, it's nothing but dense forest and undergrowth, restricting one's view to a very limited depth, perhaps 10-25 yards at most.

I then went behind the 14th green and walked next to the tracks looking south.
It's also dense trees and undergrowth.
The only viable spot where a view might be permitted by the land form and lack of trees would be of the swamp, and that would hardly be land considered ideal for golf.  The same is true near the lower 18th fairway.  The view is stopped by the high hill and that area was also bordered/buffered by dense trees and underbrush.

Others I spoke with, caddies, workmen and golfers, all of whom were presented with the question, who viewed the areas in question, stated unequivically, that there was no view, no possible way that a passenger on a passing train could look out his window and see a potential golf course.

But, I think I have come up with the answer with respect to this issue.
Some kids painted a picture of a golf course on the window next to the seat where Crump was sitting.
After a few drinks, he just happened to turn and look out the window, and what did he see, a beautiful golf course.
Then, someone pulled the shade and Crump thought he had his Eureka moment.

[Tom MacWood]

If time permits in the next few days I'll post an early review of Westward Ho! with pics that make the point, as well.

Westward Ho! penal? This latest episode with Fowler shows just how out of touch and reckless you and others have become. Fowler was a long time partner with Simpson and an early collaborator with Thomas. He is considered one of the fathers of modern strategic golf architecture. You are the first person I know who has referred to his architecture as penal or draconian. Heads up...here comes the Philadelphia Steamroller...even innocent bit players reputations will be distorted and perverted to conform to the story.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

That lake also provided electricity for the club

Could you expound a bit on how the lake provided electricity?

[JESII]

"Your position on this requires us to believe that the discovery of the current 13th hole did not have the effect of immediately turning 14 from a par 4 to a par 3, how do you reconcile that?"

This is what you wrote a few posts ago. Now you are saying it doesn't make any difference when the 14th was first a par-4?

That's right. It only matters when it was last a par 4, and that was the day they found the 13th green...

What makes you think Crump thought the Travis hole would be his 14th?

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Re the topo map below, I assume you have seen it up close and in person.  Could you clarify whether there are topo contour lines over all of the map.  Based on the picture, I only see what looks like contour lines in the top left of the map around 13, 14 and 15.




I have taken that picture and emphasized the red hole outlines and the blue contour lines that I can see, and then flipped the picture so that it is more easily compared to the 1898 topo.









The contour lines from the red blue plan don't align very well with the USGS 1898 topo.  Which do you suppose was wrong?  Which was right?

As another point of reference, I found this 1953 topo map.  Neither the red blue nor the 1898 topo align very well with it.  I assume that the 1953 map is more accurate. 



If I recall correctly one of your theories is that the early designs were done working from topos rather than in the field.  How difficult do you think that might have been if the topos of the time were inaccurate?

As a separate thought re your posting about your recent walking tour, has anyone here suggested that Crump could see the whole of the property from the train or see where a golf course routing might fit on the land based on passing on the train?  All that Iwould gather out of the train story was that he could see enough of the hills, valleys and trees, and water/swamp/streams to convince himself that it was worth further looking.  In other words, that the general topography of the property looked like it would fit the purpose of a golf course.

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom,

Re 8/1915 article regarding Pine Valley in American Golfer, it provides drawings of holes 1 and 16, but not 13 and 14.  Did you have another article in mind?


Patrick,

From said American Golfer article of August 1915, following is the first paragraph:

"IF EVER there was a piece of
ground destined by Nature for a golf
course of the "purest ray serene,'' it
is that occupied by the Pine Valley
Golf Club, of Sumner, N. J., some
fifteen miles from Philadelphia.
There may be others equally as fortunately
situated on this side, but
their identity or locality yet remain to
be disclosed. Here we have the raw
material in all its pristine beauty . . .
a rolling country of sand dunes with
a thin covering of dwarf pines and
stunted oaks. And with the added
advantage of running water forming
several fair-sized ponds, furnishing
excellent water hazards."

Hmmm, dwarf pines and stunted oaks.