Pine Valley and Topos

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I'm not going to argue this,,,the articles are pretty clear in their points and folks can read them or themselves and make their own determinations without all of us trying to tell everyone what we think they REALLY meant.

[JESII]

Tom,

I don't care how far nor how high you can piss, you've proven time and again you can't piss straight.

In December 1914 the 14th is a par 4 and in January it is forced to be a par 3 because of the discovery of the 13th greensite by January. This is a simple analysis of this one question.

The idea of daming the bog likely hatched much earlier than even this date as they began damming the creek near the clubhouse a year earlier.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I don't care how far nor how high you can piss, you've proven time and again you can't piss straight.

Well, that might be the pithy quote of the year.  Makes Tmac sound like a typical, high handicap pisser.  Can you get lessons for that from a pro?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I don't care how far nor how high you can piss, you've proven time and again you can't piss straight.

In December 1914 the 14th is a par 4 and in January it is forced to be a par 3 because of the discovery of the 13th greensite by January. This is a simple analysis of this one question.

The idea of daming the bog likely hatched much earlier than even this date as they began damming the creek near the clubhouse a year earlier.

Jim
Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed?

When exactly was the creek near the clubhouse damned?

Yours is an interesting theory about the bog, but it seems based on very limited information. What point are you trying to make, if any?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Did the first version of PV have even a rudimentary irrigation system?  We know NGLA had one.  If so, they probably needed one pond to draw from.  While the output was low, and some early courses tapped city water systems, I don't have the impression that this former hunting ground had much of a municipal water supply in place at the time.  As always, I could be wrong.

[Mike Cirba]

It might be a fun exercise to compare Colt's hole drawings and bunkering schemes to what Crump built.
Perhaps I'll start on that next week.

[Tom MacWood]

It might be a fun exercise for you to explain where you read Fowler had a no let up philosophy, or did you just make that up? Since you are avoiding answering the question can we conclude you did make it up....again.

Based on the site, being completely sand, wouldn't it be difficult to build a course where sand didn't influence every shot?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Again, the reference to Fowler prefering a no-letup approach is found in the lower left paragraph of the two column article.

As far as sand, it's what you do with it that matters, right?

[JESII]

Posted by Mike about a week ago.

This January, 1914 article from the Philadelphia Inquirer also discusses the lengthy process of discussing and finally building an Ideal course in the Philadelphia area.

The point is that, quite clearly, the creation of the lakes were planned, if not completed, before the final evolution of 13 - 15. Combined with the description of finding 13 and how it necessitated a change to 14 as an independent act makes it clear that these two events (th lakeand 13 - 15) were not "inextricably linked".

How is the information limited?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Again, the reference to Fowler prefering a no-letup approach is found in the lower left paragraph of the two column article.

As far as sand, it's what you do with it that matters, right?

"Fowler, like two or three Americans, is an amateur who turned links architect, and eternally yearns for the idea, leaning toward a severity that scarcely gives on time to catch breath."

Is this the line? So let me get this straight you are basing your view of Fowler's architecture on one line in a local Philadelphia paper written by an anonymous columnist. Your supposed expert opinion of Fowler's approach, one of the greatest golf architects in history, is based on this one line. You have no knowledge of or insight into any of his great designs, you have not read any of his many articles and contributions to books on the subject, and you have not read any of the many articles written about him by architectural commentators in his native country. If you had any credibility remaining before this its gone now.

[Tom MacWood]

The point is that, quite clearly, the creation of the lakes were planned, if not completed, before the final evolution of 13 - 15. Combined with the description of finding 13 and how it necessitated a change to 14 as an independent act makes it clear that these two events (th lakeand 13 - 15) were not "inextricably linked".

How is the information limited?

In a previous post you speculated that the creation of the two lakes was linked. I'm not sure where you came up with that...there is no evidence. The two plans made by Colt show the first lake, but not the second. The latest Colt plan appearing in the Inquirer January 1914. By the way that is the plan which is under the red/blue plan. The creation of the second lake clearly was an afterthought, an it is not known if was a practical decision, an architectural decision, or maybe a little of both.  

I agree the creation of the second lake likely happened before the final evolution of 13 and 15....but since many aspects of that evolution remain a mystery its hard to say for certain. At this point we definitely cannot say the finding of the 13th and the creation of the lake were not linked. We have no way of knowing.

[Dan Herrmann]

BTW - Is the artesian well still used? 

[JESII]

In a previous post you speculated that the creation of the two lakes was linked. I'm not sure where you came up with that...there is no evidence.

You're going to have to show me where I did that.


Why was the creation of the second lake an afterthought?


The beginning of the December 1914 article makes it very clear that the plan to convert the bog into the lake by 14, 15 and 16 was already in place and the 13th and 14th holes were not planned in their current form. There is no debating this.

[Dan Herrmann]

The article seems to imply that the use of the "muck" was a key success factor in the ability to grow grass later in the year...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike & Tom,

The problem with relying on articles often lies with the author.

Are they knowledgeable ? 
Do they have first hand information or are they being supplied the info by third and fourth parties far removed from the issue.

As to "muck", it's rare that it has the qualities needed to be the ideal soil to grow grass.
Again, authorship is a critical factor.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

My thoughts are that the creation of the lake inspired Crump to craft the 13th.

I say that for the follwing reason.

In AWT's December 1914 article he references the creation of a beautiful lake.

In the January 1915 article he states the following.

"It occured to Mr Crump that the panoramic view from this ridge would be very desireable and consequently he sent a gang of men in there to clear the trees"

So what do we have.

The 13th hadn't yet been cleared of all those trees and underbrush that AWT stated had hidden the land from the eyes of mortals because it was covered by timber and underbrush.

Yet, Crump thought by clearing that ridge the view would be fabulous.

What view, the view of the railroad tracks ?   The view of the swamp ?   The view of more trees ?

NO, the view he probably envisioned was the view of the new beautiful lake.

Early photos show that the 13th green was visible from the 13th tee, that all the trees on the left ridge/slope had been cleared, offering a view of ................. the lake.

Remember, AWT didnt' say that Crump thought a great canting fairway was there.
AWT didn't say that Crump thought that a great redan like green was there, and that's why he wanted the trees clear.
AWT stated that nature had hidden the land from the eyes of mortals, covering it with timber and underbrush, so Crump didn't get the idea to extend the 13th from the land since, as AWT wrote, it wasn't visible.

AWT stated that Crump thought that great views from the ridge would be there.
Since when are views of a swamp in southern NJ beautiful ?

It had to be the view of the lake that was the springboard, the genesis for the extension of the 13th hole.

And from that, the revision of the 14th hole and 15th tee.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Further to my reply above, IF Colt's plans are drawn in blue pen/pencil, it appears as if the lake is defined in Blue pen/pencil in the Blue/Red topo.

Does this mean the lake was part of Colt's plan ?

The 14th hole, as a par 3, in its current location is crafted in blue pen/pencil.
What does that signify ?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

When did I ever claim to be an expert on Herbert Fowler?   Unlike some others here who generally portray themselves as expert voices on any architect or golf course past and present, I tend to focus on a few American architects (because sadly, my itinerary of courses played abroad is very limited) and courses that I find fascinating and intriguing for any number of reasons.

I also tend to study courses I've actually seen and/or played, and in the case of Fowler, again sadly, the only US course of his I've played is the little left of his work at LACC North, certainly not a broad enough experience to make any realistic assessment of either his philosophy or style.   I do hope to get to Eastward Ho before long...it looks wonderful in pictures.

In any case, if I somehow lose all credibility here because I haven't studied Fowler intensely, then I think perhaps the other 1,498 posters here also sadly are on the short end of the stick...perhaps we should all pack up and move on and leave it to you and a few others to just rewrite all the club histories for us?

The articles I brought forward, in two separate Philadelphia newspapers, stated that George Crump and the other founders of PV were enamored with Fowlers's writings and studied them intensely.   They also stated that he was of the school where there was little breathing room...where all 18 holes were intended to be great, ideal holes, which usually meant they were intensely challenging.   I'm not sure that the one article isn't Tillinghast, but whoever it was certainly was inside Pine Valley and even if they interpreted Fowler wrong, as you seem to be arguing, that was the intent they developed from studying him, and they certainly seem to have acted on it.

Which of Fowler's courses have you seen or played that gives you a different perspective from Crump and friends?

[paul cowley]

Mike & Tom,

The problem with relying on articles often lies with the author.

Are they knowledgeable ?  
Do they have first hand information or are they being supplied the info by third and fourth parties far removed from the issue.

As to "muck", it's rare that it has the qualities needed to be the ideal soil to grow grass.
Again, authorship is a critical factor.

 

Muck tilled into sand can create a great growing medium...muck being an anaerobic but highly organic substance similar to peat...and when blended with a porous material (sand) adds nutrients and slows down the high perculation rate found in sandy soils such as PV.

No author is needed as this was common knowledge of the ODG's and anyone involved in the agriculture of those days.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Are you telling us that THIS is the guy who wasn't arguing for more stringent golf courses featuring harshly penalizing elements without giving much room to catch one's breath?   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike & Tom,

The problem with relying on articles often lies with the author.

Are they knowledgeable ?  
Do they have first hand information or are they being supplied the info by third and fourth parties far removed from the issue.

As to "muck", it's rare that it has the qualities needed to be the ideal soil to grow grass.
Again, authorship is a critical factor.

 

Muck tilled into sand can create a great growing medium...muck being an anaerobic but highly organic substance similar to peat...and when blended with a porous material (sand) adds nutrients and slows down the high perculation rate found in sandy soils such as PV.

Then why did NGLA have to import 10,000 truck loads of topsoil, why didn't they use their muck from the swamps and bogs at NGLA ?



No author is needed as this was common knowledge of the ODG's and anyone involved in the agriculture of those days.

Why did PV have the agronomic issues if this was common knowledge ?

Are you sure it was common knowledge circa 1912 ?

"Muck" differs in content, and/or, not all muck is created equally.

You mention mixing the muck with sand, but, how many knew what the proper ratio was, or how to do it with different "muck"

Since GAC was a pure novice at GCA, this certainly wouldn't be in his inherent data bank.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

You keep calling Crump a novice in a derogatory way, but you keep forgetting that he had experienced men around him at most every turn for advice...

Among them, AW Tillinghast, who had already designed Shawnee and Aronimink...Harry Colt, nuff said...Ab Smith, who had extensively toughened Huntingdon Valley over a number of years...George Thomas...who had designed with Samuel Heebner the course at Whitemarsh Valley...Walter Travis...CBM...etc, etc...

A wise man keeps good counsel.

Tom MacWood,

This is further evidence of what some Americans thought of Fowler's penal philosophies, circa 1914, as published in "American Golfer";

Are you still going to tell us that Fowler wasn't viewed as somewhat draconian in his approach at that time, an approach that greatly appealed to Crump and friends??

Whether this interpretation of his work was accurate or not, are you going to tell us that this wasn't the US impression of his philosophy?

[paul cowley]

Patrick

All site conditions are different and I've never been to NGLA but I am very familiar with conditions found in sand hill sites. Maybe the mucky areas at NGLA were too salty, or the available areas to mine good muck didn't exist...I don't know.

Blending soils has been common practice since the advent of agriculture and we still create 'blends' of soils on most golf courses today.

Asking about ways to bulk up the poor sandy soils found at PV so he could grow grass would be something that I'm sure Crump solicited...unless he was a idealistic dolt.

It wasn't rocket science then, although we try to make it rocket science now.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

You keep calling Crump a novice in a derogatory way, but you keep forgetting that he had experienced men around him at most every turn for advice...

It's not derogatory, it's factual.

That he consulted with experienced individuals doesn't make him an expert, nor does it alter that fact that he was a rank amateur, a novice, with no previous experience in golf course architecture or agronomy.

I know that you don't like facts, but, that's what they are.

Among them, AW Tillinghast, who had already designed Shawnee and Aronimink...Harry Colt, nuff said...Ab Smith, who had extensively toughened Huntingdon Valley over a number of years...George Thomas...who had designed with Samuel Heebner the course at Whitemarsh Valley...Walter Travis...CBM...etc, etc...

What advice did he seek from each of those individuals, and what part of Pine Valley do you think each of those individuals is responsible for, architecturally ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was looking at the Blue/Red topo and reflecting on prior comments about it.

We've been told that # 14 was a par 4, that was subsequently converted to the current par 3 14th.

But, on the Red Line portion of the topo, # 14 is clearly a par 3.

Remember, this is a topo and as such, everything drawn on it is drawn to scale.

Thus, the Red Line 14th is not a par 4, but a par 3 running parallel to # 13.
It's about the same length as the 3rd hole.

It's the Blue Line 14th that mirrors the current hole, hence, since we've been told, from indisputable sources, that Crump's interation is in Red Pen, the Blue Line 14th reflecting the current 14th would seem to be a design other than Crump's.

In addition, Colt's original 14th would appear to be a downhill par 3
Look at the Blue X in the Blue green at the top of the DZ of the current 13th and the tee, line and green below in Blue.
Again, this hole is the same length as # 3, indicating that it was a par 3.

Remember, this topo is drawn to scale, so there can't be any interpretation in terms of distance and juxtaposition of the features.

Does the last half of # 13, being "hidden from the eyes of mortals" and Crump's desire to have great views of the beautiful lake below, along with Colt's concept of transitioning to the lower part of the property, vis a vis a par 3, form the basis for extending # 13 and for the basis for employing Colt's concept of a transitional par 3 to the new location just east of the 13th green ?