Pine Valley and Topos

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

I don't want to discuss Merion again but I would point out that you need to either read more slowly or stop misrepresenting what I wrote;

I said,

"By the way, on the NGLA thread it was presented as proof positive that CBM and Whigham famous pony ride(s) at Sebonac Neck happened as early as September 1906 based on a reading of what Whigham wrote at Macdonald's death (even though he wrote 1907, not 1906), when he told the story of riding the land with CBM and then having lunch at Shinnecock Hills GC where certain doom for the project was predicted."

Others here viewed it as a simple typo by Whigham, and that he had really meant in September of 1906.

This was offered as supposed proof that CBM and Whigham had been out there a full four months before signing contracts to secure 205 acres of the 450 available.  I recall Jeff Brauer at the time basically saying, well, that nails it as far as trying to understand the timeline and after a bit, I conceded that he was probably correct.

If anyone here knew that CBM had actually confirmed Whigham's account in "Scotland's Gift"...that indeed this happened months after NGLA was already under construction in September 1907, they sure kept it to themselves.

So, don't tell me I am taking Whigham's words as proof positive on anything, especially in that eulogy.   Hell, he essentially gave CBM direct credit for every good piece of architecture in the states in the previous 3 decades.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David, Tom & Jeff,

Topos may have been used to lay out the holes on new courses overseas.

My reference was to golf in America.

It would be interesting to find a pre-construction topo with the holes laid upon it, ala the Blue/Red routing at PV.

Jeff,

That's an interesting point, but, absent any connection to golf, I can't see some local surveyors/engineers designing a golf course.

It would make sense for a town/city to commission a golf course with the town/city supplying topos to bidding architects.

Years later, the CC of York embarked on this very exercise with Ross and Flynn as the competing architects or at least the finalists amongst competing architects.

Can anyone of you great researchers find a map of Camden County, NJ, circa 1910 ?

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

The Dunn's laid out courses overseas and in America, and I can't imagine why they might have changed their approach on the boat.   Princeton was an American course, and according the the article Bausch found, they had a contour map made during the planning stages.  At the time of JD Dunn's article cited by MacWood, he was designing courses over here.  Shortly after Willie Dunn and Tom(?) Dunn finished at Biarritz, Willie Dunn expanded Shinnecock.   An 1893 contour map exists of what I believe is his plan for the 12 hole course at Shinnecock (using four holes from the original Davis nine,)  He then expanded that to eighteen holes.     Other large construction projects like Ardsley most likely used a contour map.

And of course the CBM stuff I mentioned was here as well.  

So while it would be nice to find something else like the map with colored lines at PV, I think there is evidence of the early use of contours with our without such a map.  
___________________________________

Cirba,
I understand what a is metaphor.  But fittingly you have no apparent grasp of the meaning and origins of the  yelling fire in a crowded movie house metaphor.   One cannot justify such egregious behavior simply because one wants his "voice to be heard" or to otherwise get attention.   One should not make such shit up, especially when it is untrue, counterproductive, or in the case of the metaphor, downright dangerous.  That is the point of the metaphor.  You obviously don't understand this on either level.

As for the "rest of the world" agreeing with you,  a few other butt-kissing cronies and partisans like Brauer are hardly "the rest of the world."  And I could not care less what you guys think if my theories, which are identified as such, logically sound, and well founded on the record.   All concepts beyond your capabilities.

As for my frustration, it stems from you ruining almost every potentially interesting conversation on the website.  It is like being in a seminar with an interesting topic and able and knowledgeable participants except for one imbecile who just doesn't get it and is in way over his head, yet insists upon totally dominating the conversation with specious theories and idiotic tangents.  In other words, you make it impossible to get anything positive accomplished and impossible to advance the conversation.

While my comments may be rude, it is at least as rude for you to arrogantly waste our time by rehashing the same shit over and over, and by carelessly and repeatedly making the same misrepresentations over and over, and by never admitting you are wrong, and by engaging in the many other petty and sleazy tactics in which you so often engage.  Everyone knows you are an idiot and a waste of time.  I am just honest enough to say it publicly, hoping in vane that me saying so will cause you to step back, reconsider, and try to change your ways.  And if not, at least I can blow off a little steam.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

What have all these arguments been if not everyone picking what makes sense over some other account?

I don't recall David Moriarty, Tom MacWood or myself ignoring common sense or prudent judgement.
Nor do I recall any of the above distorting the facts.

I ask you clearly, DO YOU ?

Why do some argue that the Alan Wilson interview of the Merion committee cannot be trusted because it was ten years after the fact, but Whigham can be trusted 30 years after the fact, "because he was there?"

Jeff, in a court of law, there are eye witnesses and there are third parties who were not eye witnesses.
The weight of their respective testimony differs for a reason.
I'm sure that you can figure that out.

Why have some argued that newspaper accounts should trump actual club minutes in some cases and not others?

Isn't it the truth, rather that the source that should triumph ?  ?  ?
Are newspaper articles factually correct ?   Universally ?  ?  ?

Or that Tillie's writings are more of a legend than someone else's?

Jason Jones, myself and others are still awaiting the production of AWT's correction regarding Crump's death.
Why do you suppose it's taking so long for that information to be posted ?
Could it be that AWT never corrected his statements and instead, perpetuated the myth ?
Don't be so quick to judge, green ink or not, until more of the facts are produced.

Its all a bad game between the usual parties.  And repeating Mikes posted articles, your green type, TMac's logic or David's uber parsing of words doesn't actually make this a real historic debate, does it?

You have a bias.
You have an axe to grind that's personality driven and that interferes with your ability to be objective.
It's your Achilles heel.

We all pound our chest trumpeting that we know who said what, who is not to be believed, etc.  However, green type doesn't necessarily make it so, no matter what shade, or how many times you post it.

You forgot to add in your whining.
Your problem is that you judge the responses by the color of the type, and/or the name of the author, and not their content.

Why didn't you object to Mike's deliberate, disengenuous distortion of what Whigham stated regarding Merion and SR-CBM ?
Start looking at the truth instead of the color of the type.

I am sure we could all point out examples of others wanting to "have it both ways."  At one time, it seemed people on this site actually looked for at least one piece of corroborating evidence.  As far as I can tell, regards Merion, HJW doesn't have the corroborating evidence, seeing that Raynor's name is mentioned no where else in any record.

Doesn't have the corrorborating evidence ?  Are you nuts ?  He was there.  He was a first hand participant and witness.

Your premise is pure nonsense.
Since when does a revelation need prior supporting documentation.

Prior to Tom MacWood bringing forth the hard evidence, where was it ever written that Crump committed suicide ?
Where was the corrorborating evidence ?
The fact that it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean it didn't happen, only that it hadn't been previously reported/recorded.
Your method of exclusion seems to only apply when it suits you.

I have my doubts as to your ability to be objective.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick

There is so much wrong with your post (like many) and so little substance or logic there, that its hard to even answer.  The HJW statement has no corroborating evidence, which is by definition ANOTHER independent piece of evidence from another source.  And, BTW, the Merion committee was there, and as interviewed by Alan Wilson, who was there at least as much as HJW and they never mention Raynor, et al.  So, it really has been a case of all of us picking and choosing who we believe.

Check out any source on the historic process.  My premise is not pure nonsense.  You questioning the motives of others constantly rather than offering any real facts isn't conclusive either.  Your continual "just because there is no evidence, doesn't mean it didn't happen" mantra isn't really logic, history, or convincing, but you rely on that gem often.

Not that I have done the research of a Joe Bausch, TMac or even DM, so I cannot be all that strong in any commendation.  But, I do feel you have been way off base on this thread, and say it confidantly.

I still hope to meet you someday, before they cart you off to the funny farm!  Cheers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I don't want to discuss Merion again but I would point out that you need to either read more slowly or stop misrepresenting what I wrote;
I didn't misrepresent what you wrote.

Since you can't seem to remember what you wrote, besides your claim that Crump shot himself in the woods at Pine Valley with a shotgun, I"ll quote your statement, which clearly and deliberately distorts what Whigham wrote.

You claimed that JW meant that CBM was the inspiration for Merion, when JW stated that CBM was the designer of Merion, that Merion was one of his famous courses.  Here are your words:

"Now, for Whigham to call Merion a Macdonald/Raynor course is a stretch of Olympian proportions,

but if he wants to say it was inspired by CBM's idea of using features and holes from great courses abroad and aided by CBM and Whigham's valuable advice and suggestions at key points in the process then I'm fine with that,

although I'm not sure where Whigham thinks Seth Raynor was involved at Merion."

So stop trying to tell us that this is NOT what you said, it's a direct quote from you[/b][/color]

I said,

"By the way, on the NGLA thread it was presented as proof positive that CBM and Whigham famous pony ride(s) at Sebonac Neck happened as early as September 1906 based on a reading of what Whigham wrote at Macdonald's death (even though he wrote 1907, not 1906), when he told the story of riding the land with CBM and then having lunch at Shinnecock Hills GC where certain doom for the project was predicted."

I'm not so sure that the exact date of the ride is the critical point.
The critical point is the Macdonald himself told us that it took two or three days to scout the propery to determine if it was what he wanted IN ORDER TO SITE HIS IDEAL HOLES.  He tells us that he and JW determined it was, that they got the company to agree to sell him the configuration that he wanted and that the quicky found the holes they were looking for, staked the property and bought the land.

Others here viewed it as a simple typo by Whigham, and that he had really meant in September of 1906.

It could be that he erred on the date, not just the year.

This was offered as supposed proof that CBM and Whigham had been out there a full four months before signing contracts to secure 205 acres of the 450 available.

By whom ?  

I recall Jeff Brauer at the time basically saying, well, that nails it as far as trying to understand the timeline and after a bit, I conceded that he was probably correct.

Since when is Jeff Brauer the ultimate decider of the facts, logic and/or truth, especially when any of the three "M's" are involved.

If anyone here knew that CBM had actually confirmed Whigham's account in "Scotland's Gift"...that indeed this happened months after NGLA was already under construction in September 1907, they sure kept it to themselves.

I don't recall to whom you're refering, but, if he got the year wrong, is it not possible or likely that he got the month wrong as well ?

So, don't tell me I am taking Whigham's words as proof positive on anything, especially in that eulogy.  
Hell, he essentially gave CBM direct credit for every good piece of architecture in the states in the previous 3 decades.


His influence was enormous, that's why Merion called him in.

What's the title of George Bahto's book about him ?

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

Well, after those last two posts it,s pretty obvious what we're dealing with here.

These guys don't want to discuss these issues;  they want to filibuster with their bizarre unfounded theories and facts be damned.

On the other hand, when I need a good chuckle...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

There is so much wrong with your post (like many) and so little substance or logic there, that its hard to even answer.  The HJW statement has no corroborating evidence, which is by definition ANOTHER independent piece of evidence from another source.  And, BTW, the Merion committee was there, and as interviewed by Alan Wilson, who was there at least as much as HJW and they never mention Raynor, et al.  So, it really has been a case of all of us picking and choosing who we believe.

Alan Wilson was never part of the process.
JW and CBM were.
Even you have to see the distinction in their participation and recollection.

Check out any source on the historic process.  My premise is not pure nonsense.  

It is pure nonsense.
Why won't you address the example I provided regarding MacWood and Crump's suicide ?
Where was the corrorborating evidence ?  ?  ?
It was there, newspaper accounts, etc. ,etc..  But, it was all lies.
They lied and the others swore to it, including AWT.
That's corrorborating evidence isn't it.
But, we know it was factually incorrect.

You questioning the motives of others constantly rather than offering any real facts isn't conclusive either.  

That you don't SEE the motives of others means you're either:
1   In denial
2   Obtuse
3   Have such a penchant against the 3 "M's" that you can't think straight.

And, I've offered plenty of facts, like the highway going right through Cirba's alleged golf course.
Facts like you can't see the two bodies of water from everywhere on the NGLA property except the low lying areas.

But, you conveniently forget them.
Let me rephrase that.  You deliberately forget them.
And that's disengenuous.

Like Mike, you're starting to make things up to suit what you type.

Your continual "just because there is no evidence, doesn't mean it didn't happen" mantra isn't really logic, history, or convincing, but you rely on that gem often.

Where was the evidence that Crump shot himself ?
There was none, so I guess it didn't happen.
Bryan Izatt, Jim Sullivan, Mike Cirba and others offer "maybe's, but you never once objected to them.
Why is that.
It''s because you're incapable of being objective.

Not that I have done the research of a Joe Bausch, TMac or even DM, so I cannot be all that strong in any commendation.  
But, I do feel you have been way off base on this thread, and say it confidantly.

Great, then you'll have no problem citing, with specificity, where I've been "way off base"
I asked you to cite examples previously, but, you remained silent.  Why ?

I still hope to meet you someday, before they cart you off to the funny farm!  Cheers.

Not to worry, TEPaul has a suite reserved for me at Happydale Farms.
 

Fact is, those on GCA.com have preference, first call on all rooms.
TE has reserved an entire wing for us.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, How would a general topo with 10 foot increents help someone find land for a golf course?

You're kidding, aren't you.

jim,

Study the early topos of PV that were already posted and tell me if they don't provide a substantive aid in the routing of the golf course, and, I don't mean the Blue/Red topo.

Nope! Do us all a favor and spell it out, would you?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

So, who did they name the wing after?

Frankly, its about the first thing you have written that I agree with - anyone who keeps getting involved in these threads needs to be put in the straightjacket and sent to HappyDale immediately.  If I ever do my own course, I think that is what I will name it.

Cheers.

Mike,

To be fair, David and TMac offered up opinion free facts in separate posts today, which were very interesting snippets of info on what I consider to be an interesting subject.  My only real beef right now is with the green ink man.......

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

So, who did they name the wing after?

Frankly, its about the first thing you have written that I agree with - anyone who keeps getting involved in these threads needs to be put in the straightjacket and sent to HappyDale immediately.  If I ever do my own course, I think that is what I will name it.



Jeff,

Will TEPaul be at the ribbon cutting ceremony ?

Lord Voldemort ?

Gib and the left coasters ?

Years ago, I got into a passionate, if not heated debate, with Tom MacWood and David Moriarty over CBM's influence at Merion.
But, when I saw photos of the "Alps" hole, I changed my opinion.

Those photos were the smoking gun for me.

What fascinated me about PV was the genius of the design and the integration of the golf holes with what I'd consider to be a hostile site, combined with the fact that a pure novice was responsible.

As a tangential exercise, I'd ask those that haven't seen the 10 hole short course to visit it, if permissable, during the Crump Cup.

It too is a marvel of sorts, the duplication of 8 holes on the regular course on terrain that's somewhat similar to that found on the regular course.

Fazio and Ransome did a fabulous job on replicating the regular course, but, Fazio is a skilled, experienced architect.
Crump had yet to design a single course, yet he produced, or collaborated on a golf course that has retained its lofty position as the # 1 golf course in the world.

Think of that.

A guy, a golfer, with no prior experience, decides on a lark, to design and build a golf course on a site with steep slopes, swamps, forest and undergrowth so thick it was equated with a jungle.

Guys could wander that land for decades and NEVER come up with anything remotely as good.

And, why did Crump site that 184 acres ?  Why not the land where the short course is ?

Why not land north of the tracks ?

Why that particular site.

AWT raved about the site, but, how much could he see if it was a dense forest with jungle like underbrush ?

It's hard to imagine that a novice would have the vision, eyesight wise and conceptually, to "see" that golf course pre-clearing unless he was Ty Webb.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Maps of Camden County don't appear to have property owners on them.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

You seem hung up on the novice architect, 100 years ago when most were novices.  You forget that PV took several years and many consultants to evolve the routing and features, and wasn't done when Crump died.  In that amount of time, and with that amount of input, I think its very possible that a good golfer could finally get a routing, given Colt's help.

He only bought the 184 acres.  Who knows why he didn't buy the other stuff until later for a second course, privacy, whatever.  It probably wasn't for sale, or a whole host of mundane reasons.

All good questions on your part, but the fact is the course got built!  And Crump did it, somehow.

As to the Alps at Merion, no one disputes they went and got advice from CBM at NGLA, including reviewing his hole templates.  To me, the fact that they built a crude Alps, with the original mounds behind and not in front of the green, was a smoking gun the other direction.  Why would CBM build it wrong, when he got it so right a few years earlier at NGLA?  What exactly did the crude, last a year Merion Alps prove to you?

As to the hostile site thing you are also hung up on, read the Dunn quote TMac also posted this morning.  Back in 1910 he was writing of hostile sites which got turned into golf courses.  It had been done before, many times.  You would be surprised at how easy surveyors and others can actually get through woods. I have done it many times.

That said, I have also done it with topo maps in hand and it does make it easier to navigate.  I have no disagreement with that concept.  But, we know (supposedly) that Crump naviagated it when hunting, and we know he had a topo survey made pretty soon after purchase.  So, he used them, in all likelihood. 

Also not sure what the maps above prove.  To paraphrase you, just because you can post some maps without property ownership, doesn't mean they didn't exist.  And that is quite logical, unlike some other of your logic leaps, like thinking AWT lied every time his lips opened or pen hit paper because he respected some family wishes.

In fact, like many of your posts, I am not sure at all if there is a point to your post 660 or 661.  At least, I don't really see it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ironically enough, I took time out from the frustrations of trying to upload - you guessed it - topo maps, into a CAD file to start a project, to make these posts.  Some days, it takes me longer to get the CAD files right than it might have for Crump to walk the property......

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

While I"m not saying that they don't exist, I've never seen a county map listing every property owner.

I have seen maps of specific locatons and even town maps with the plots/plats identified, but never a county map.
Have you ever seen a county map listing every property owner ?

And, if that's what Crump wanted, why wouldn't he have specified that ?

Certainly, his brother-in-law wasn't a mind reader.
If someone asked me to get a county map, that's what I would get, a simple county map
Until we know the entire contents of the post card and not just one sentence, we'll have to continue to make reasoned guesses.

Colt stated that he designed Pine Valley, but, he was brought into the equation after the purchase of the property, not prior.

While we know that Crump initially bought 184 acres, we know that the purchase was expanded well beyond that acreage within a short time after,

I am hung up on a number of items.
Crump's total inexperience as an architect.
The hostile nature of the site and the creation of a masterpiece that's retained its ranking as the # 1 golf course in the world for 100 years.

I could spend a decade studying music, but, I wouldn't be able to create a "song" for the ages.
I could spend a decade studying painting, but, I wouldn't be able to paint a "picture" for the ages.
I don't have the inate talent.
So, you can see my skepticism with respect to GAC simply walking the woods and crafting a course for the ages.

The fact that the course remained unfinished six years after the purchase has to be significant, especially when the missing holes were 12, 13, 14 & 15.

I've always felt that the conversion of the swamp to a pond/lake might have been the linchpin to the final design.

If the swamp remained a swamp, I don't see how you could complete the routing, in the field or with a topo.

While you may not see or recognize the relevance of posts 660 or 661 or any of my posts, sometimes a post strikes a chord and a discovery is made.  Some call it "brainstorming"

While it may not be important to you, I'm interested in knowing if GAC used topos as his primary tool in designing the golf course.

The Blue/Red topo would seem to indicate so, but, more info is needed before a definitive conclusion can be drawn.

One things for sure, he didn't visualize the golf course from a speeding southbound train

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

I understand your points above, but the fact remains that, for example, there are child prodgigy musicians, etc. and there are golfers who shoot 70 the first time out.  So, I see your skepticism, but have no trouble accepting the fact that a few talented and motivated men could have built great golf courses without a gca like me, especially in an era when gca as a profession was in its infancy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I understand your points above, but the fact remains that, for example, there are child prodgigy musicians, etc. and there are golfers who shoot 70 the first time out.  So, I see your skepticism, but have no trouble accepting the fact that a few talented and motivated men could have built great golf courses without a gca like me, especially in an era when gca as a profession was in its infancy.

Jeff,

I hear you, but, if that was the case, why, six years after the purchase was the course still incomplete ?

Wouldn't a prodigy have figured out # 12, 13, 14 and 15 much earlier ?
A prodigy who lived on site ?

The other thing that puzzles me is that Fazio and Ransome crafted an exceptional 10 holer not far away, yet Pine Hill, close by, can't be considered a "peer" golf course, even with 100 years of study and modern tech under the developer's belt

If it was as simple as you seem to indicate, why isn't Pine Hill the equal of Pine Valley ?

[Mike Cirba]

Pat,

I'll take Richard Francis and Alan Wilson's take on what happened at Merion over Whigham's exaggerated importance of two total days there EVER any day of the week..

No contest.

Jeff,

I too enjoy when both David and Tom present actual facts and research instead of insults and baseless conjecture.

To be fair, while I don't often agree with Tom's analysis, I do think he's a tremendous researcher.  David just sort of gloms onto what Geoff, Tommy, Dan Wexler, and Sean Tully and some others unearth, but that's ok too, as we all should be building off each other, just as I've gotten a lot of info from Joe Bausch, Wayne, Tom, etc.

I do wish we could just discuss the facts and the conjecture without the personal insults, but I may be a dreamer there.

Oh...and Patrick...

Well, I'm often asked if he's really as big a jerk in person as he is onsite.

And, I assure them that it would actually be impossible for him to be so, and that he is kind of a charming sweetheart in person.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I agree with you.  

In the midst of all the far-flying theories and green ink hypothesizing masquerading as indisputable fact, sometimes it's necessary around here to yell fire in a crowded theater just to be heard.

And, we're all guilty of that at times.

I'll be happy to edit my post, but you may want to edit your post claiming as fact that Crump played no golf at all in 1910.   That's a theory, perhaps even a theory with some good foundational basis, but a theory nonetheless.

Why should I? Its a well beyond theory. I've produced two articles that said he was away from the game due to business concerns, and there is plenty of evidence documenting those business concerns. Crump was one of the most active and celebrated golfers of the period, and yet you or no one else has been able to find single report of him playing golf in 1910 (prior to his trip abroad)...and God knows you've looked high and low.

When it comes to history there is a difference between a shot in the dark, a plausible theory and a well reasoned/supported conclusion. Yours is a shot in the dark.

[DMoriarty]

I don't know what is more comical, Cirba pretending he understands real property law or Brauer pontificating on evidentiary matters.   No corroboration?  He apparently does not understand what the word means.

I wish I could ignore these guys, but I have trouble with the endless stream of self-serving but blatantly false statements.  When it comes to screwing up the facts, Brauer may be worse than Cirba, and that is saying something.   He manages multiple misleading and outright false statements in only a few sentences.  Among other things:
-- He falsely claims there was no mounding in front of Merion's Alps hole.  There are multiple reports of the hole playing blind, and reports of having to scale "ramparts" to get to the hole.  Early diagrams show mounding in front as well as behind.
-- He falsely claimed that Merion's Alps hole only lasted a year.  In fact, it lasted over a decade.  Reportedly the reason it was eventually changed had nothing to do with its quality, but was rather because it was no longer safe and reasonable to play over Ardmore Avenue.
-- He falsely represented the hole as "crude." In fact the hole was one of the more noteworthy holes early on and was widely described and praised from the opening and well into its existence.   Although he had been critical of some unidentified aspect of the hole a few month's before, even A. Findlay praised the Alps hole and noted that the approach shot into the green complex compared favorably with that of Prestwick.  So at best Brauer statement that the hole was "crude" is nothing but his usual projection of his modern ideas onto circumstances to which they just do not apply.  
--He erroneously reasons that CBM would not have "buil[t] it wrong."   Huh? No one ever claimed that CBM built the hole.  In fact the evidence strongly suggests that while CBM was still advising Merion during construction, it was from a distance and that CBM had nothing directly to do with actually building the the course.  

What is wrong with this guy?  We've covered all of this dozens of times, so how could he possibly get so much wrong in only three lines about Merion?  The reason is that Brauer had a point to try and make, and instead of using actual facts he just makes shit up.  Like Cirba.  I should be grateful, I guess.  At least this time he is making shit up about Merion instead of making false, malicious, and extremely damaging lies about me.   What a classy guy.  
_______________________________

 

David just sort of gloms onto what Geoff, Tommy, Dan Wexler, and Sean Tully and some others unearth . . .

As usual you are absolutely wrong and have no factual basis for your ridiculous conclusion.  Again, you are just making shit up.  But I will admit you are remarkable in your consistency.  Every theory you come up with is idiotic and well off base, no matter the topic. Remarkable.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Thanks for trying to keep the discussion to the facts and conjecture on architectural matters and not personalities and motives.   I'll try to do the same.

In that regard, as to your latest post...

I don't believe the absence of evidence, particularly the lack of any evidence of Crump playing social golf in Atlantic City on weekends with his friends, is evidence of anything at all.   Those friendly matches were almost never reported although they took place on winter weekends for probably a decade, except perhaps anecdotal remembrances from Tilly, such as his discussion about the birth of the birdie.

We also don't know for certain when Tillinghast actually wrote the majority of that article, which was published on January 12, 1913 because apparently Crump had asked Tilly to hold off on printing it until he was ready.   I doubt that Tilliinghast, sitting on a story of that magnitude to Philly golfers, would have not created a few drafts over time simply to be ready when given the word.

So, it's likely that he was referring to the winter of 1909/10, probably any time from Sept/Oct. onwards.

Beyond that, your two articles don't say he didn't play any golf in 1910.   The one published in November 1910 bemoaned the fact that Crump (and others such as Simon Carr, Hugh Wilson, Tillinghast himself, etc.) had not been playing in local tournaments that year.   The second, published in January 1911, was concerned with Crump's recent 3-month golf trip abroad, and mentioned that business had been recently keeping him away.  

I'm not sure how you read any specific time-period into either of those articles, so yes, your not stating proven fact, but merely theory.

So, while we're both theorizing, based on the evidence you're familiar with, when do you think Raynor came to CBM, and what do you think they used his contour map for....planning and routing, or simply constructing?

[Jeff_Brauer]

.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Well, I'm not going to take time debating David.  Yes, I was a little casual in wording it that CBM built Merion.  I am well aware that Pickering had a construction contract with the club.  And the last a year phrase wasn't meant to be literal.  So crucify me, as David often does in his lawyerish, word parsing, insult a minute style.

Didn't Finlay write (paraphrasing so that jerk won't claim I am misquoting) that Wilson should see the Alps on his trip to the UK, because he thinks he has one, but will find out that it will take some real making?  How does that qualify as high praise?  And, I have seen the pictures of the hole.

Anyway, I didn't really read DM's constant insults of Mike recently, but if what he picks on to insult me is indicative, I know his posts are pure trash.  He calls me classless to cover his behavior, and says I make s*** up to cover the fact that I was one of the few who really asked some hard questions about the biggest fantasy every foisted on this group by him, specifically his essay.

My main point to Patrick stands - the features of Merion belie these guys contentions about MCC turning to CBM at every turn, which they still hope to document when TePaul stops hiding the source material they haven't taken the time to go see.  Sort of like OJ's search for the "real killer."

But, I do appreciate DM reminding me of why I stayed off this thread for so long.

[Mike Cirba]

Just on the topic of pre-construction topo maps and their usage, the following map from April 1915 shows that these guys (Hugh Wilson, George Crump, Ab Smith, George Klauder, Franklin Meehan) were obviously familiar with using maps for routing purposes by that time.

Which begs the question...was the course first routed on the ground and then the results transferred to the map for reference and construction or visa versa?




I think in most of these matters it was done on the ground first, probably with the map as an aid to location.  

Apparently CBM started doing "paper jobs" pretty early, but he had Raynor do the onsite work and propose the routings first, which CBM then adjusted as he saw fit on paper.

I think for the most part that it wasn't until later with some of the bigger architectural firms like Donald Ross where routings were created strictly on paper, but even there had his people onsite to refine his plans during construction.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Maybe TMac can tell us which experts Dunn was referring to in 1901 that were arlready occaisionally creating routing plans on paper?

And, really, from my experience, I don't think you can separate paper and field in most cases.  Its hard to find your way around a wooded site (not impossible) but in any event, its always nice to have a topo map so you can figure out where you are by comparing real and paper topo features.  They would use both in an undetermined way, IMHO.

One thing that is funny is how your perception in the woods changes.  Sometimes, I find that I think I have walked 400 yards and have only gone 100 according to the features I saw.  In other cases, I think I have walked 100 yards due to slow going, brambles, etc. and find out I walked twice that far!

Looking at that NGLA map with marks every 25 yards, from time to time, I have found very dramatic drops (usually old holes) that fall right in between the marked elevations that the surveyor didn't record because it was not on his targets.

So, you are right that the best gca's confirmed whatever they had on maps in the field, if at all possible.  Of course, if getting paid $50 for a paper job, they may not have had the time or inclination.....you get what you pay for!