[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Thanks for responding.

Why would the Philadelphia Inquirer report about Tillinghast (who wrote for a competing paper) and his friends taking a train ride to play social golf over the winter of 1909/1910?  

For that matter, why would any newspaper do that?

I said there was no mention of Crump playing golf, and said nothing about Tilly. GAC was a regular competitor in the two big Atlantic City tournaments April and November....so was Tilly for that matter. GAC did not play in them. The paper also often reported when prominent golfers were vacationing in AC. In Decemeber 1912 it was reported Crump was golfing in AC with Robert Large, Wirt Thompson and WW Atterbury.

Crump was regular participant in all the big and little events around Philly. He played in none of them in 1910. It was reported on two different occasions he was away from the game. Yet, you believe he made one golf trip to AC with Tilly early in 1910, but of course he did not tell anyone what he found on this trip until September 1912. Like I said in order to believe some of these myths you must suspend logic and common sense.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

How is this possibly your answer to a very reasonable question? It undermines your credibility a great deal. Completing a land acquisition within three months of first discovering it, and therefore considering it, would be a monumental task. Your timeline is off.

It seems like a reasonable timeline to me supported by documented facts.  In September he writes to his friends telling them he believes he has found the site. Some time afterward they visit the site, and evidently agree to go forward. On November 2 it reported in the Inquirer that the land had been transfered to Crump.

Based on your experience with land purchases during that era how long would it have typically taken to complete a land transaction?

[Peter Pallotta]

This reminds me of the penultimate line in John Ford's "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" - when the newspaper man interviewing the hero (lawyer Jimmy Stewart) learns that it's actually a forgotten man (cowpoke John Wayne) who should have the title/honour. He rips up the notes he's been taking and says: "This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend!".

Needless to say, just meant as a little diversion.  Please continue.

Peter

[JESII]

Based on your experience with land purchases during that era how long would it have typically taken to complete a land transaction?

Following up and tying in your question about Merion...6 months! And that with highly motivated groups on both sides of the deal.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Round and round we go...

Tillinghast reported in November 1910 that it was unfortunate that a number of Philadelphia-area golfers hadn't been playing in local tournaments of late, including among them Father Carr, George Crump, Hugh Wilson, and a handful of others including himself.  The article read;

"Dr. Simon Carr has been sadly
missed in local events during the season.
He has not golfed since his return
from Europe. The entry of the
genial doctor has always, been the
source of genuine satisfaction to the
committees in charge of the tournaments.
It is to be hoped that his absence
from the links may be but temporary.
Mr. George Crump is another
of the old guard who has been
prevented by business from active participation.
He, too, has been in Europe.
For the first time in many years
Mr. A. W. Tillinghast has absented
himself from the tournaments, but he
has been very actively engaged in the
development of the new course of the
Shawnee Country Club. He returned
to town for the St. Martins tournament
and was successful in the handicap,
winning the gross score prize.
Mr. R. E. Griscom appears but rarely
and unfortunately this, too, is true of
Mr. Hugh Wilson, Mr. Charles Farnum,
Mr. George Cook, Mr. Robert
James, Mr. F. H. Bohlen, Mr. Clayton
Dixon, the brothers Lineaweaver
and many others.

Did none of these men play any golf over the winter of 1909/1910??


In January 1911 after returning from a 3 month golf trip to Europe, it was further reported by Tillinghast that;

"Mr. George A. Crump has returned
from an extended golfing tour in Europe
and he was delighted with the
courses in general. Mr. Crump is not
only a very stubborn player—and a
good one too when in form, but he is
also a close student of the game. Unfortunately
business has prevented his
appearance recently but the future will
find him more often on the links."

How does this equate to Crump playing no golf during the previous winter of 1909/1910 again?


This is getting silly, and almost Monty Pythonesque in its absurdity...wouldn't you agree?  

I'm ready to move onto topos if you are.

Let me try to rephrase my question....what do you think the Macdonald/Raynor blueprint at NGLA was used for?   Routing or construction, or both?

Related, in the field of cartology, how would you define a "survey" versus a "contour" or "topgraphical" map?   Would you say they are synonymous?

[Tom MacWood]

Based on your experience with land purchases during that era how long would it have typically taken to complete a land transaction?

Following up and tying in your question about Merion...6 months! And that with highly motivated groups on both sides of the deal.

Aren't we talking about apples and oranges. I'm no expert on the real estate side of the Merion deal, but wasn't it fairly complicated? There were a lot different parties involved, including an established club and membership, not to mention the real estate side of the venture. Are you sure it took 6 months?

In this case it appears you have one man purchasing property from one seller, and the purchase price was much lower. A little over $8000 for 134+ acres. I see no reason why it couldn't have easily fallen into the presented time frame. Why would it take longer than two months?

[JESII]

When CBM left Ardmore in late June they agreed to make the purchase as soon as possible. They made the initial transaction in mid-December.



"Why would it take longer than two months?"

When's the last time a lawyer did anything in two months?

Seriosly, it takes 2 to 3 months to buy a 1/4 quarter acre lot in this day and age.

[Mike Cirba]

How long did it take CBM to seal the deal at NGLA?  

He likely found the site around September of 1906, secured 205 undetermined acres of 450 available by December, and completed the purchase after routing (staking out) the course and determining those final boundaries sometime in the summer of 1907 if memory serves.

Tom MacWood,

Don't know if you missed my rephrased question(s) above...let me re-state;

I'm ready to move onto topos if you are.

What do you think the Macdonald/Raynor blueprint at NGLA was used for?   Routing or construction, or both?

Related, in the field of cartology, how would you define a "survey" versus a "contour" or "topgraphical" map?   Would you say they are synonymous?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Round and round we go...

Tillinghast reported in November 1910 that it was unfortunate that a number of Philadelphia-area golfers hadn't been playing in local tournaments of late, including among them Father Carr, George Crump, Hugh Wilson, and a handful of others including himself.  The article read;

"Dr. Simon Carr has been sadly
missed in local events during the season.
He has not golfed since his return
from Europe. The entry of the
genial doctor has always, been the
source of genuine satisfaction to the
committees in charge of the tournaments.
It is to be hoped that his absence
from the links may be but temporary.
Mr. George Crump is another
of the old guard who has been
prevented by business from active participation.
He, too, has been in Europe.
For the first time in many years
Mr. A. W. Tillinghast has absented
himself from the tournaments, but he
has been very actively engaged in the
development of the new course of the
Shawnee Country Club. He returned
to town for the St. Martins tournament
and was successful in the handicap,
winning the gross score prize.
Mr. R. E. Griscom appears but rarely
and unfortunately this, too, is true of
Mr. Hugh Wilson, Mr. Charles Farnum,
Mr. George Cook, Mr. Robert
James, Mr. F. H. Bohlen, Mr. Clayton
Dixon, the brothers Lineaweaver
and many others.

Did none of these men play any golf over the winter of 1909/1910??


In January 1911 after returning from a 3 month golf trip to Europe, it was further reported by Tillinghast that;

"Mr. George A. Crump has returned
from an extended golfing tour in Europe
and he was delighted with the
courses in general. Mr. Crump is not
only a very stubborn player—and a
good one too when in form, but he is
also a close student of the game. Unfortunately
business has prevented his
appearance recently but the future will
find him more often on the links."

How does this equate to Crump playing no golf during the previous winter of 1909/1910 again?


This is getting silly, and almost Monty Pythonesque in its absurdity...wouldn't you agree?  

I'm ready to move onto topos if you are.

Let me try to rephrase my question....what do you think the Macdonald/Raynor blueprint at NGLA was used for?   Routing or construction, or both?

Related, in the field of cartology, how would you define a "survey" versus a "contour" or "topgraphical" map?   Would you say they are synonymous?

Is there any record of Crump playing golf in the US in 1910?

I think you may be confused, the blueprint has no topo lines on it. How would you use a non-topographical map for routing?

I don't know what they used that map for, but obviously it wasn't used for routing. It has completed routing on it already.

There is no evidence they used a topo map to route the golf course, which is why I questioned your definitive statement they did. Is it your speculation they used a topo to route the course?  

[Tom MacWood]

When CBM left Ardmore in late June they agreed to make the purchase as soon as possible. They made the initial transaction in mid-December.



"Why would it take longer than two months?"

When's the last time a lawyer did anything in two months?

Seriosly, it takes 2 to 3 months to buy a 1/4 quarter acre lot in this day and age.

I don't think the two situations are comparable for obvious reasons.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

But, the NGLA blueprint DOES have topo lines on it.

There are tees, greens, bunkers indicated...some bunkers crossed out, some added.   No fairway widths are drawn.

Every 25 yards along the centerline of play of each hole there are hash marks with the elevation points indicated.

[Tom MacWood]

How long did it take CBM to seal the deal at NGLA?  

He likely found the site around September of 1906, secured 205 undetermined acres of 450 available by December, and completed the purchase after routing (staking out) the course and determining those final boundaries sometime in the summer of 1907 if memory serves.

And your point is regarding PV?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I really don't care to argue the real estate deal...his close friend and "inner Circle" confidant as you termed him in your essay, AW Tillinghast wrote that he'd know of the plan for a year in January 1913 and had been asked to keep quiet until then.   

Frankly, that's good enough for me.

Plus, I find the topo discussion much more relevant and interesting.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

But, the NGLA blueprint DOES have topo lines on it.

There are tees, greens, bunkers indicated...some bunkers crossed out, some added.   No fairway widths are drawn.

Every 25 yards along the centerline of play of each hole their are hash marks with the elevation points indicated.

I believe those are the distances from the tee. There are no topo lines on that map...in fact the hills are drawn in like a relief map.

If those numbers running down the center lines are elevations (and I don't think they are) those numbers sure were not on the map prior to the fairways being drawn, so obviously it was not used for routing. Nice try though.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

According to our friend who found the map, those lines are elevation lines.

Do you think the creation of a contour map of the site predated the creation of the blueprint, or came afterwards?

Related, in the field of cartology, how would you define a "survey" versus a "contour" or "topgraphical" map?   Would you say they are synonymous?

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Where did you read the NGLA was routed using a topo?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I'm going to the step before that...to the person that gave the picture to Shelly.

Why would the exact location of the picture be relevant in 1909?

For the simple reason that most people described where and when the photo was taken on the back side of the photo.
That was a common practice in 1909 and probably up until the digital age when the camera dated the snapshot.

The hunting acreage in in the pine barrens would have been 1000X the 184 acres Pine Valley was eventually sited on.

Does he look lost ?
With the train, trolly and White Horse Pike running to Clementon, the convenience of the location was obvious.
In addition, Shelly tells us that game abounded in the area.  Why wouldn't he hunt there ?


If the train story desn't make sense logically, the picture makes even less sense.

The two issues are NOT remotely similar.

Any chance you an keep the cap on the green marker?

Doubtful.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Crump wrote to his brother-in-law Ralph Kellam, in Merchantville, on December 1, 1910;

"Please buy for me a large map of Camden Co. of most recent date."

And, what if the most current map of Camden County was the following Topographical Map from 1872? 

Bryan,

You're losing it.
Which implies that you had it in the first place.

Here's an 1898 topo which YOU posted in reply # 337, which followed David Moriarty's topos in his reply # 324.

Please note it's a contour topo.







Which doesn't have contour lines on it, yet is titled a "Topographical Map". 
What if one of the then contemporaneous meanings of "topographical" was different from our current understanding of the term?

Based on the 1898 topo you posted in reply # 337, I'd say that that's doubtful.

What do you suppose that Crump would have been looking for on a map of Camden County? 

He was certainly familiar with Camden County having grown up there.

We only know of one sentence on that postcard.
We don't know if GAC clarified his need or went into specifics about why he wanted a map of Camden County.

The request, to "buy a map" , by itself, would indicate that it wasn't for property ownership purposes.


Contours? Property ownership? Something else?

The request, to "buy a map" , by itself, would indicate that it wasn't for property ownership purposes.

Without knowing if additional information was on that postcard, we can only guess.

Perhaps he wanted contours, perhaps a site accessible by all means of transportation.

Review of the postcard would be helpful.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I can see Patrick feeling bitter and resentful now that Philadelphia has clearly supplanted NYC as the sports capital of the world, but I figured out in Ohio with the Bengals and Browns and Reds and Indians you're just used to that kind of thing by now.    


True to form, you've got your facts all wrong.
My interests in sports are centered around college football and basketball.

I'm certainly not a fan of NBA basketball, although I do recognize the talents of the players.
It's hard for me to root for a sport where the drug testing policy excludes testing for marijuana.
Wouldn't you like to pay your players 10,000,000 a year and not know if they're playing while high on dope ?

Heck, I'm surprised the Pilot's Union hasn't asked for the same testing policy.

I'm sure that public would support that.

Patrick,

Did you ever read Tom MacWood's essay?

Some time ago. 

If so, your argument is with him, not me.   I believe his essay is solidly researched and comes to some well-grounded conclusions.
Yes, Tom did confirm that GAC died of a self inflicted gunshot.
That was denied by almost everyone, then, after Tom provided solid proof, some said, "oh heck, everyone knew that".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom M,

Didn't Crump buy the land in October 1912? How could he have possibly first seen it less than three months earlier?

How long do you think it took Mackenzie to realize CPC and Royal Melbourne were good sites? Coore & Crenshaw at Sand Hills? Alison at Hirono? Thompson at Cape Breton? I believe Barker and CBM & Whigham spent one day at Merion before recommending the site. I'm not sure I understand your second question. I don't know when GAC first saw the site, but the Tilly 1910 train story makes no sense for a number of reason including the fact Crump was not playing golf in 1910.

Tom,

How is this possibly your answer to a very reasonable question? It undermines your credibility a great deal. Completing a land acquisition within three months of first discovering it, and therefore considering it, would be a monumental task. Your timeline is off.

Jim,

A good friend of mine was riding down the NJ Turnpike, saw some land nearby, stopped his car, called the broker for the land, and bought it the next day.

It's not like GAC entered a bidding war for that property, and, there was but one seller.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

Thanks for responding.

Why would the Philadelphia Inquirer report about Tillinghast (who wrote for a competing paper) and his friends taking a train ride to play social golf over the winter of 1909/1910?   

For that matter, why would any newspaper do that?

For the same reason that the newspapers reported that "Dewey beat Truman"

For the same reason that the newspapers reported that you could see the Atlantic and Shinnecock Bay from everywhere on NGLA except the low lying areas.

They just got it wrong.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Don't allow Mike to divert the discussion away from PV.

NGLA and Merion have no relevance in this discussion.

As to land purchases, as I've said, and witnessed, I've seen individuals buy huge tracts of land for very large sums, on a whim, overnight.

Stay on topic..... PV.

Mike always tries to lead you away from the topic when you're getting too close for his comfort.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

Too close??  Yes, like Pluto, from Mars perhaps.  

Do you actually want to talk about topos on this thread or have you reconsidered, concerned that you'll simply show how little you actually know on the topic?

Otherwise, this is a huge waste of time.  

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

You claim I diverted this thread, yet I gave you the direct answer to your question about the use of topos at Pine Valley and when that occurred on the very first page of this thread.

Please read again what Tillinghast wrote (after being given permission by Crump to publish his story) on January 12th, 1913..

He says (paraphrasing) that although it might appear to be a daunting task considering the present scrub trees and undergrowth, but that "AFTER careful topographical charting, the work will not be as gigantic as it might seem."



So, it's clear, and contemporaneously reported by Crump's close friend that this cartographic work had not yet taken place as of that time.   In the words of Ross Perot, "Problem Solved".  

Your mention of Merion and NGLA is ironic, and a bit humorous.

In both those cases, you (and others) argued that smart, rich men would never buy a plot of land without knowing already where all the golf holes were going to go....that they would route the course first, and then purchase the property, or perhaps we'll hear again that...well, Crump bought 184 acres...more than enough to find a golf course in there somewhere later.

Or, we'll hear that Pine Valley was too overgrown so it had to be done in this order, where Merion (partially true) and NGLA (false) were open and cleared enough to route prior to purchase.

Here's what CBM himself told us about the condition of the property when he found it...




What do you think he meant when he said it "had never been surveyed"?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

You claim I diverted this thread, yet I gave you the direct answer to your question about the use of topos at Pine Valley and when that occurred on the very first page of this thread.


NO, you didn't.
You merely cited a 01-13-13 newspaper articles that stated, after they get topos the work will be easier.
Yet, we know that GAC requested a map of Camden County as early as 12-01-10, over two years prior to the article.
Unfortunately, only one sentence of that postcard was reported by Finegan, so we don't know what else GAC might have stated relative to his request.
We know that an 1898 topo was available.
David Moriarty alludes to a 1913 topo, so, perhaps that was utilized as well.
And, it's possible that relief maps of Camden County were available.

But, please, don't tell us that you answered the questions on the first page

What's really interesting is the comment where AWT, in describing the site states, in his 01-13-13 article that  "for in every direction one sees little but underbrush and scrub trees"


Well, if that was the case, and Simon Carr reconfirmed it, how could they see anything from the southbound train ?

Please read again what Tillinghast wrote (after being given permission by Crump to publish his story) on January 12th, 1913..

He says (paraphrasing) that although it might appear to be a daunting task considering the present scrub trees and undergrowth, but that "AFTER careful topographical charting, the work will not be as gigantic as it might seem."

Mike, that's a "FORWARD LOOKING STATEMENT"
Not a statement of fact.

Please tell me that you understand the distinction.

So, it's clear, and contemporaneously reported by Crump's close friend that this cartographic work had not yet taken place as of that time.  
Then you're stating that GAC never got the map of Camden County.
You're also stating that GAC never obtained or looked at any topos prior to 01-13-13.

I'm not so sure that AWT was as close to GAC as you would like us to believe, afterall, if he was such a close friend, as you proclaim, how could he not know of the cause of GAC's death ?

Then again, your close friend reported that Crump shot himself in his cabin with a pistol, while you maintained that he shot himself in the woods with a shotgun,

I'm not so sure that AWT's relationship and involvement in the project was as strong as you'd like us to believe.

If AWT was such a close friend, why wasn't he one of the first members ?  Why wasn't he ever a member ?
Remember, you told us, they played golf together all of the time in AC and the Philly area.

Something's amiss.
 
In the words of Ross Perot, "Problem Solved".  

If you think so, then there's no need for you to comment further.
I think the question/s remain open

Your mention of Merion and NGLA is ironic, and a bit humorous.

In both those cases, you (and others) argued that smart, rich men would never buy a plot of land without knowing already where all the golf holes were going to go....that they would route the course first, and then purchase the property, or perhaps we'll hear again that


That's not what we argued.
That's your distortion of what we stated regarding NGLA and Merion.
CBM himself, told us that when he first inspected the property he found the ideal holes he was looking for, subsequently he surveyed it and bought it.

GAC could have bought 190, 236 or any number of acres, but, he settled on 184, thus, there had to be a reason for that specific acreage.
You prefer to rush to conclusions, especially ones that suit your agenda.
I'd rather gather more facts before making a final determination at PV.

Merion was concerned about their ability to site 18 holes and called in CBM to help them with the property constraints.


...well, Crump bought 184 acres...more than enough to find a golf course in there somewhere later.

Why 184 ?  Why not 168, or 197 or 238 ?

There had to be a reason why he chose 184 and I guarantee you it wasn't a random guess.

Maybe, just maybe, the Camden County map had something to do with it.

Or, we'll hear that Pine Valley was too overgrown so it had to be done in this order, where Merion (partially true) and NGLA (false) were open and cleared enough to route prior to purchase.

What do you mean, "Or, We'll hear that Pine Valley was too overgrown so it had to be done in this order " ?
Didn't you produce a 01-13-13 newspaper article written by AWT where he states that it was so overgrown you couldn't see anything, in any direction, but underbrush and scrub trees.  Didn't Simon Carr, who was much closer to GAC than AWT state that it was a dense forest with jungle like underbrush ?  Yet, you cling to the story, that riding southbound, Crump saw rolling hills and great terrain for golf.  You must be kidding.
Oh, I forgot, you're not kidding, you're just clinging to the myth.

It always amazes me how you post articles to prove your point, yet deny the veracity of the same article when it undermines your point.

Here's what CBM himself told us about the condition of the property when he found it...



What do you think he meant when he said it "had never been surveyed"?

That the 450 acres hadn't been surveyed, yet, they discovered the holes they wanted, subsequently had it surveyed and purchased 205 or of the 450 available acres.  CBM sited the holes first, then determined that portion of the 450 acres he needed, surveyed it and purchased it.

Is it possible Crump did the same ?

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