Pine Valley and Topos

[Tom MacWood]

His 90+ year old caddie claimed he had a tooth ache....that his why he shot himself in the head?

While others will give here and there to preserve some semblance of their credibility you strictly follow the company line...good for you.

[Sean_A]

I am confused about the golf deal.  Crump wasn't hurt and it was apparently reported he missed a season of formal Philly golf.  He also went on an architecture trip late in the year.  Why would folks think this adds up to no golf in 1910? 

Henry - I am in complete agreement with you.  Hunting in dense woods isn't terribly clever. 

At the end of the day it doesn't make much difference if Crump found the land as a young man or on a train - does it?  If folks think it does make a diffence, why is that?

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

I am confused about the golf deal.  Crump wasn't hurt and it was apparently reported he missed a season of formal Philly golf.  He also went on an architecture trip late in the year.  Why would folks think this adds up to no golf in 1910?  

Henry - I am in complete agreement with you.  Hunting in dense woods isn't terribly clever.  

At the end of the day it doesn't make much difference if Crump found the land as a young man or on a train - does it?  If folks think it does make a diffence, why is that?

Ciao

No it doesn't make much difference how he found the land, and I have said so half a dozen times on this thread, but we are talking about Philadelphia golf lore and a small group irrational followers. There is a line in the sand and they are not giving up on even a minor myth for fear a major myth may later fall.

Jim Sullivan is arguing about articles he has obviously never read, and Mike Cirba gives the impression he still believes Crump died from a tooth ache. If the local myths are that important to them who am I...I don't see the harm. In all honesty they are good stories.

It was reported Crump was away from the game due to business, and apparently he was away because there is not single report of him playing in any of the numerous local and national events he normally played in, including the Philadelphia CC club championship. He also gave up the game for a year or more a few years earlier after the death of his wife....oddly no one is disputing that.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I don't think anyone is preserving myths.

I think neither you nor Patrick has made a convincing case, because everyone else here has either called BS (in the case of Patrick), or fallacious logic in the case of your evidence.

I'm not sure even David would take on your case, given the flimsy, concocted evidence, and I don't mean that personally...just from a purely evidential basis.

Those respondents range from England to Chicago as far as I can see, and those with more understanding of the property like Jamie and Jim Sullivan who live closer have called Double BS.

Your biases are pre-determined, and aren't supported by facts.   If you guys, or anyone else, has more evidence to attempt to make your case, we'd all love to hear it.   To date, however, it's been thrown out of court as far as I can tell.

Otherwise, I think we should move to more productive discussions, like the topo maps.   However, if you and Patrick want to keep arguing the same case over and over to no avail here, please do as you like.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
You spend a hell of lot more time positioning yourself (and others) than you do presenting any substantive information. Instead of claiming I am bias, please explain why, if he discovered the land early in 1910, it took Crump almost three years to rediscover it. Give me your account of those few years.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

The major (and probably only) myth about Crump has already fallen, in that his suicide has gone from a closely guarded secret to more open knowledge.  After that, what other "myths" could be more important?  And which or the irrational followers is clinging to the the gum disease myth?

As to rediscovering the site, the call for maps from England tells me he always had it in his mind, but since his task for the committee was to find the site, he sort of played along with the charge he was given.  After all, a sandy dune site if available along the ocean would have been even better than PV.  But, when none were found, and the vision for a seaside course was iffy, he started studying the PV site in more detail (secretly according to Tillie) and when the time was right, revealed it to his committee.

[Tom MacWood]

As to rediscovering the site, the call for maps from England tells me he always had it in his mind, but since his task for the committee was to find the site, he sort of played along with the charge he was given.  After all, a sandy dune site if available along the ocean would have been even better than PV.  But, when none were found, and the vision for a seaside course was iffy, he started studying the PV site in more detail (secretly according to Tillie) and when the time was right, revealed it to his committee.

This is what Tilly tells us. He said Crump discovered the site from the train window in early 1910 (prior to his trip abroad and before he requested the maps), he then secretly investigated the site, and he then purchased the property after taking his friends out to see it.

Was he secretley investigating the site for three years or did he discover the site in 1910 and then wait three years before investigating it? How do you explain his considering Browns Mills prior to the current site? Why do all the other accounts say he found the site while hunting?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I'm only pointing out that every time you mention the supposed "Philly myths" you're belying your agenda, which now seems to be about every other post.

And, rather than be redundant myself, I'll answer your question by referring you to my post #425, which I think covers your question again.

I'd also simply add that I think Crump had this in mind for a number of years after the death of his wife, but it took a few years to get all his affairs in order and gain critical mass among his closest friends for the huge undertaking.

A man does not liquidate his assets, move into the woods alone, and spend his family fortune trying to create something lasting without a bit of preconception and careful planning.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I think I explained it, but I beleive he was following the charge set by the committee first, which was to build a seaside course.  Had they found an ideal course site down by AC, he might never have gone back to PV.  But, when things turned out to be less than ideal, he remembered his thoughts on PV as a potential site, investigated further, and brought his committee back out there to sell them on the idea that a great site was better than a good one on the water, and in a slightly more mild climate.

I have trouble figuring out why that concept is so hard for you to accept?

[Patrick_Mucci]

According to his very close friend and traveling companion and Crump's hand-picked chronicler of contemporaneous events, AW Tillinghast, Crump first considered the land for golf from the train.   He very well may have hunted it previously, or after, but from this account it seems that Tillinghast wholly believed the thought of using the land for golf first occurred to Crump from the train window.

AWT also misrepresented the facts surrounding Crump's death.

False in one, false in many.

My premise is that Crump, intimately familiar with the land, having grown up in the area and having hunted on it, made his selection based on his personal on site visits and evaluation, and after the fact, may have indicated to others, while riding on a train, where, approximately, the land was.

As Shelly told us, it may have been that only from the longer view did Crump notice the forest from the trees.
Shelly didn't tell us that, Shelly told us that the newspaper story was bogus, that there was proof that Crump was familiar with the land prior to the train story's time line, having hunted on it previously.  Shelly also produced a 1909 photo taken on the site that would become PV.
As to discovering the "ideal" land for golf from the view from the train, I've provided sufficient information/facts for prudent people to dismiss that myth.

Why are you trying to avoid moving the discussion to the topographical history of PV?  

You were the one, in your very first post on this thread that diverted it's focus to the train story.
Whenever things aren't going your way you attempt to redirect the debate.

You may not feel it's important to get the facts right, but I do.

So, I'll ask you again.

Is it YOUR position that Crump FIRST spotted the land that PV was to be sited on, while riding in a train, OR, did he discover the land that PV was to be sited on, previously ?

Jeff Brauer,

Early on, over and over again, you asked me if I was calling AWT a liar  ?
Over and over again, you asked me, why would AWT lie ?

Now that it was revealed that AWT lied about GAC's cause of death, why don't you ask yourself the same questions.
It's apparent that he did lie.
Irrespective of the motive he did lie.

False in one, false in many.

The fact that AWT misrepresented the facts has to cast a Paul (sic), a cloud of doubt on the story that Crump FIRST discovered PV while riding on a train.

In terms of the significance of the routing, it's not important, but, in terms of recording history properly, in accordance with the facts, it is important.

HenryE,

If you were going to take a picture in a forest in 1909, you'd need daylight, ergo a clearing.

[Mike Cirba]

Pat,

No response necessary...your post sadly speaks for itself.

[Joe Bausch]

Here is what Tilly penned for his weekly Philadelphia Record article on Jan 27, 1918:

[Jeff_Brauer]

So, Techincally, AWT didn't lie about his death, since he never said the cause of death at all.  He was a sympathetic friend who didn't feel the need to post the cause.  Many obituaries are the same way today.

But, if TMac and Pat want to apply a very strict standard, I understand what their point is, even if Elvis is singing "Don't be Cruel" (more for TMac's comment that he shot himself because of a toothache.)

While we are at it, having seen the word "Darkie" in print, we may as well lay it all out and call AWT a racist and a liar.  Like many others, he was a man of his times, and judging him by today's standards might (not saying it is in terms of him being a liar) change our view of him.

Pat, when did AWT stop beating his wife?  Care to speculate on that?

[Patrick_Mucci]

So, Techincally, AWT didn't lie about his death, since he never said the cause of death at all.  He was a sympathetic friend who didn't feel the need to post the cause.  Many obituaries are the same way today.

Jeff,

That's NOT true.
AWT wrote that GAC died when his tooth abcess spread to his brain.

Previously, when Tom MacWood initialy revealed, conclusively, that GAC died of a self inflicted gunshot, TEPaul stated that MacWood hadn't discovered anything, that Crump's friends and those at Pine Valley knew that all along.  So, if we're to believe TEPaul's claim that it was common knowledge, then AWT lied.

But, if TMac and Pat want to apply a very strict standard, I understand what their point is, even if Elvis is singing "Don't be Cruel" (more for TMac's comment that he shot himself because of a toothache.)

Jeff, it's amazing how far you'll go to accomodate the myth and deny that Tom MacWood and I are correct on this sub-issue.

While we are at it, having seen the word "Darkie" in print, we may as well lay it all out and call AWT a racist and a liar.  


Jeff, why do you go to such absurd extremes, why do you attempt to demonize Tom MacWood, David Moriarty and myself when we make valid points ?

Tillinghast wrote that GAC died of natural causes when nothing could be further from the truth.
Yet, you deny that AWT wrote that and continue to claim that AWT was pure as the wind driven snow.

Now, I absolutely love Tillinghast's work, I think his body of work is second to none, so please don't go screaming that I'm biased against AWT.

But, the facts are, directly or through omission, AWT lied and the motive is irrelevant.

So, if he lied regarding his death, why is it beyond your grasp that he lied regarding his life ?

Like many others, he was a man of his times, and judging him by today's standards might (not saying it is in terms of him being a liar) change our view of him.

Jeff, no one is judging him, he was a great architect who produced a superior body of work, but, perhaps he was too close to GAC and shaded the truth or embellished a bit.

Pat, when did AWT stop beating his wife?  
Care to speculate on that?

You just can't accept that you're wrong ....... again. .....and have to resort to the absurdity of the theatre of the extremes.

Jeff, an apology, from you, to everyone, including me, stating that you were wrong about what AWT wrote about GAC, and that I was  correct in my statement, would be appropriate,

Thanks

[Paul_Turner]

Re the topos and Pine Valley.

From what I've researched I think detailed topo maps for golf course design were rare in 1913.  

I know "absence of evidence" isn't "evidence of absence" but no topo maps have come to light from Colt's work in UK/Europe before or around the same time as Pine Valley: courses like St George's Hill (1912-13) which was  more densely forested than Pine Valley and just as undulating.

There is however one topo map in existence for a  course Colt worked on prior to Pine Valley and that's at Toronto (1911).  It doesn't have contour lines but I'd still classify it as topographic because ridges, ravines etc are drawn.

The other major Colt designs in North America from those 1911,13,14 which have topos are:  Old Elm and Hamilton.

Re the stick routing.  

That needs to be looked at closely.  I have quite a lot of examples of Crump's writing and he does sign the plan at the top stating something to the effect that he's sited the greens but isn't sure they're in shown in the correct place on the stick plan.  

(TEP and I debated how this plan matches the AWT reports and the later routings back in the archives.)

Using "Occam's Razor" and the fact that holes 1-5 and 18(mostly)  follow AWT's reports prior to Colt's arrival then it's simplest to conclude that the entire stick plan predates Colt.  The 5th is drawn as a short "Mashie" across the ravine rather than the current "Spoon" shot that Colt reportedly found.

 However looking at the stick diagram there does look to be more than one hand on it.  There is a simple line and circle variety but also holes that are more fleshed out with the greens marked as say "G7".   So I think it needs to be looked at closely for different handwriting styles to try and confirm.  (I have many examples of Colt's writing and drawing style and I think it's unlikely he would have only drawn a final plan which is the blue one in the clubhouse.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

At this point, I agree with Shelly -

So do I.
Shelly had no ulterior motives, he just wanted to get PV's history "right"

No doubt he was familiar with the area in general,

Living nearby and hunting on the property, I think he was more than generally familiar with the land, I think he was intimately familiar with the land.

but also saw something specific from the train window that caught his eye specifically for golf. 

Jeff, I don't believe that's the case.
There's a very narrow window for viewing the land from the tracks adjacent to PV.
The elevations of the land preclude any meaningful view, without trees.  With trees, you can't see a thing.
So, I don't think there was anything that he viewed from the train that he already wasn't aware of.

He didn't know for sure, as he wrote, and we don't know for sure.  Also, the important thing is he found it.
'
But, it's important, for the historical record, to ascertain how he found it.
Now, the facts seem to confirm that he found it, not from the train, but from on site experience prior to any train ride.
 
I see and prefer TMac's points and analysis of the contemporary documents, but don't think your analysis of train speed and what not is really good history or process - its really throwing as much poo against the wall to see what sticks. 

I don't think you'd say that if you studied the site.
There's not much to see, especially in a very brief time frame.
I think all of my points are valid, and, I believe you would agree if you were more familiar with the site.

I propose we move on to analyzing the construction sequence of PV where TMac and others seem to have something of real value to offer. 
You and I, well, we're just gasbagging it.  cheers.

You choose to categorize my mulit-faceted presentation in disparaging terms, but, all of the points I raised are valid, and when those individual points are aggregated, they coalesce to form a convincing body of evidence.

But, I realize how much it pains you when I'm right, so I understand your need to demonize, diminish and discredit anything I say.

I believe that Crump discovered PV, a site just a short distance from his lifelong home, with on site experience, either hunting, playing, hiking, etc. etc..  I believe that this familiarity led him to explore the site for its golf potential, and that after he studied it, he brought others to see the sight and pointed out the site to others he was traveling with as the train passed the approximate location.

That seems to make the most sense, versus him suddenly having a Eureka moment from a fleeting, chance glimpse from a speeding train  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Re the topos and Pine Valley.

From what I've researched I think detailed topo maps for golf course design were rare in 1913.  

It's not that topo maps were rare, it's their use in designing golf courses that's unique.
PV may have been amongst the first course/s to have employed them in the ascertaining of the routing and individual hole design.

I know "absence of evidence" isn't "evidence of absence" but no topo maps have come to light from Colt's work in UK/Europe before or around the same time as Pine Valley: courses like St George's Hill (1912-13) which was  more densely forested than Pine Valley and just as undulating.

Paul, remember, GAC was a rank amateur when it came to golf course design, hence it would seem likely that he would be more dependent upon topo maps than his natural talent for "feeling" the land.

It's my belief that PV may have been amongst the first number of golf courses to have employed topos in the design of the course.

Look at Raynor's role at NGLA, Frances at Merion.
It may have been, that rather that staking out a course in the field, American architecture was entering a new phase, one that employed topos as a primary, if not the primary tool.

There is however one topo map in existence for a  course Colt worked on prior to Pine Valley and that's at Toronto (1911).  It doesn't have contour lines but I'd still classify it as topographic because ridges, ravines etc are drawn.

The other major Colt designs in North America from those 1911,12,14 which have topos are:  Old Elm and Hamilton.

That era, circa 1910, may have been when GCA departed from its prior form, to a form where topos were an integral, if not the integral part of the design process.

Re the stick routing.  

That needs to be looked at closely.  I have quite a lot of examples of Crump's writing and he does sign the plan at the top stating something to the effect that he's sited the greens but isn't sure they're in shown in the correct place on the stick plan.  

(TEP and I debated how this plan matches the AWT reports and the later routings back in the archives.)

Using "Occam's Razor" and the fact that holes 1-5 and 18(mostly)  follow AWT's reports prior to Colt's arrival then it's simplest to conclude that the entire stick plan predates Colt.  The 5th is drawn as a short "Mashie" across the ravine rather than the current "Spoon" shot that Colt reportedly found.

However looking at the stick diagram there does look to be more than one hand on it.  There is a simple line and circle variety but also holes that are more fleshed out with the greens marked as say "G7".   So I think it needs to be looked at closely for different handwriting styles to try and confirm.  (I have many examples of Colt's writing and drawing style.)


Paul,

Don't forget that in 1910 Crump requested a map of Camden County.
This request was made when he was out of the country.
I think it's reasonable to believe that Crump received that map and utilized it.
I think a case can be made that subsequent to receiving and studying the map of Camden County, as it related to parcels of land he was interested in, that Crump sought more detailed maps of the areas of interest, including topos.
Someone has contacted me and indicated that they have a map from the 1890's of the area.
I'm trying to obtain that map to see what kind of detail it contains.

I'm also trying to obtain topos of the area circa 1910

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here are the USGS topos from 1898.

While Bryan Izatt thinks that they wouldn't be working off these topos, I don't see why they, or subsequent versions, wouldn't be studied in conjuction with the map of Camden Country.

Does the land north of the tracks seem more interesting ?  ?  ?   



 

[Mike Cirba]

Pat,

Your behavior here is disgraceful.

It's very sad to see.

[Paul_Turner]

Patrick

Yes, I'm not aware of an earlier example of a topo map with contour lines being used for the actual golf course design.  (If there are examples I'm sure these will be dug up here!).

Not sure that topos were needed to find the site though.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I'm only pointing out that every time you mention the supposed "Philly myths" you're belying your agenda, which now seems to be about every other post.

And, rather than be redundant myself, I'll answer your question by referring you to my post #425, which I think covers your question again.

I'd also simply add that I think Crump had this in mind for a number of years after the death of his wife, but it took a few years to get all his affairs in order and gain critical mass among his closest friends for the huge undertaking.

A man does not liquidate his assets, move into the woods alone, and spend his family fortune trying to create something lasting without a bit of preconception and careful planning.

Are you serious? Post #425? Where you claimed Crump looked a Absecon and Browns Mills before 1910?

Was he secretley investigating the present site for three years or did he discover the site in 1910 and then wait three years before investigating it? So you think he was searching NJ prior to ordering the map? Why do all the other accounts say he found the site while hunting?

[Tom MacWood]

So, Techincally, AWT didn't lie about his death, since he never said the cause of death at all.  He was a sympathetic friend who didn't feel the need to post the cause.  Many obituaries are the same way today.

But, if TMac and Pat want to apply a very strict standard, I understand what their point is, even if Elvis is singing "Don't be Cruel" (more for TMac's comment that he shot himself because of a toothache.)

While we are at it, having seen the word "Darkie" in print, we may as well lay it all out and call AWT a racist and a liar.  Like many others, he was a man of his times, and judging him by today's standards might (not saying it is in terms of him being a liar) change our view of him.

Pat, when did AWT stop beating his wife?  Care to speculate on that?

"The Death of Mr. George A. Crump has shocked Philadelphia golfers beyond expression. The end came suddenly on the morning of January 24th when an abscess found its way to his brain."

Hazard (AWT), American Golfer 2/1918

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Turner,

I never implied that topos were involved in the discovery process.

But, I do think they were used, for one of the first times, in routing and designing the golf course.

I believe the use of topos in the design of PV was a departure from how courses were designed in prior years.

When you consider that GAC had no prior design experience, that Carr described the site as hostile and that the site contained some very steep inclines not conducive to golf holes, topos seem to be a natural fit/tool for Crump's purposes.

In addition, if GAC was seeking advice, what better way to describe the land, than by sending topos to those he was seeking advice from.  With travel in 1910-12 being a lengthy and/or difficult affair, sending topos to interested parties, to give them a preview of the site under consideration, would seem to be a prudent method for soliciting opinions and preparing the recipient for his on site visit.

The fact that there was a subsequent dual topo, complete with individual hole designs, lends credence to that premise.

If GAC, and HSC, used topos to "lay out" the course, which seems to be a first, why is it imprudent to think that topos were supplied to interested parties, pre-hole concept/routing ?  And, that GAC used them in the early phases of the development process ?.

The 1910-11 map of Camden County intriques me for several reasons.

If Crump requested a map of Camden County, wouldn't his next step, after he narrowed down his site locations in Camden County (Browns Mills and Clemention) be to acquire a topo of those areas he was interested in, circa 1910-11 ?

What I find interesting is that Crump was extremely familiar with Camden County, he grew up there, went to school there, lived there, so obviously he wasn't requesting a map to see where he was or what towns were nearby.  He had to have had a specfic purpose.  I would think his search would incorporate locating a sufficiently sized parcel of land.  With respect to the postcard that Crump sent, requesting the map of Camden County, I wonder if his request was not just for a map, but for a relief map ?  Again, with his intimate familiarity with Camden County, why else would he want a map ?  The mention of the request in the history books about PV does not go into detail with respect to the specific request, but, IF Crump did request a relief map, that would be a material find, because it would seem to indicate that he had sited the land for the course and was desirous of learning more about its terrain.

And again, it would seem to represent a major departure from the method by which golf courses were designed.

If the USGS made topos in 1898, is it not reasonable to consider that perhaps Camden County had relief maps in 1910-11  ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

As much as I would love to bow out of these discussions, as long as you are talking solely the development of PV, I might offer some stuff up.  Go to the Tillie site (you have the link in an email) and in Tillies March 1915 article on PV, he notes that Crump "discoverd" the new 13th hole while clearing trees for the 12the green.

While just a snippet, that implies that George was very much a field type of guy, even that late in the development process.  BTW, it also mentions taking muck from nearby low lying areas for topsoil in another article, which almost certainly had to be the pond of 14.  Maybe making that lake had nothing to do with design, but more agronomy.

Just a thought.

[Tom MacWood]

Re the topos and Pine Valley.

From what I've researched I think detailed topo maps for golf course design were rare in 1913.  

I know "absence of evidence" isn't "evidence of absence" but no topo maps have come to light from Colt's work in UK/Europe before or around the same time as Pine Valley: courses like St George's Hill (1912-13) which was  more densely forested than Pine Valley and just as undulating.

There is however one topo map in existence for a  course Colt worked on prior to Pine Valley and that's at Toronto (1911).  It doesn't have contour lines but I'd still classify it as topographic because ridges, ravines etc are drawn.

The other major Colt designs in North America from those 1911,13,14 which have topos are:  Old Elm and Hamilton.

Re the stick routing.  

That needs to be looked at closely.  I have quite a lot of examples of Crump's writing and he does sign the plan at the top stating something to the effect that he's sited the greens but isn't sure they're in shown in the correct place on the stick plan.  

(TEP and I debated how this plan matches the AWT reports and the later routings back in the archives.)

Using "Occam's Razor" and the fact that holes 1-5 and 18(mostly)  follow AWT's reports prior to Colt's arrival then it's simplest to conclude that the entire stick plan predates Colt.  The 5th is drawn as a short "Mashie" across the ravine rather than the current "Spoon" shot that Colt reportedly found.

 However looking at the stick diagram there does look to be more than one hand on it.  There is a simple line and circle variety but also holes that are more fleshed out with the greens marked as say "G7".   So I think it needs to be looked at closely for different handwriting styles to try and confirm.  (I have many examples of Colt's writing and drawing style and I think it's unlikely he would have only drawn a final plan which is the blue one in the clubhouse.)

Paul
I would agree topo maps were rare in golf architecture in 1913, but I'm not sure I would agree about the Toronto map. I'd call that a relief maps were the topographic features are drawn in...as opposed to a exact survey of the land. Relief maps were actually fairly common in golf architecture around 1913, and before. One the earliest topos I've seen was Chicago GC in 1912, and it was made by a Landscape Architect. Topo maps made for large scale architectural and landscape architectural projects were common in 1912, and before. George Crump's uncle was a prominent architect in Philadelphia, as was his son. He designed, built and operated the Colonnade.

Topographic maps were also common in the planning of infrastructure like roads and railroads. One or two of the earlier articles announcing the PV project claimed it was joint venture between George Crump and Theodore Voorhees, VP of the Pennsylvania RR, and the golf course would be constructed by engineers. That article was in March 1913.

The note on the stick routing, or whatever you want to call it, is:

"Am not sure the greens are marked on the map as I marked them on the ground.

GAC"

As you said there is no date on the map so there is no way of knowing when it was made, or by whom. The original idea, pre-Colt, was to have eighteen holes designed by eighteen different founders/golfers. Crump's note could have been intended for himself, Colt or one or more of the other eighteen. I agree that there evidence of Colt's hand on that stick map, and based on that I think it is likely the note was a reminder to Colt.