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Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #275 on: August 18, 2011, 09:54:28 PM »
Jim,

The funny thing is that all of these guys arguments backfire either way.

For instance, Tom MacWood argued that if Crump found the property in 1909/1910 on a train, why would he wait until 1912 before telling his friends?  

Well, what's the difference if he found the site hunting in 1909??   ::)

I think Crump found the property by train as his close friend Tillinghast (who was with him on those train rides) reported in three contemporaneous publications and then again in 1933, 15 years after Crump's death.

I think he went to visit the land and hunted during that winter, probably multiple times, and motored there and over time became more and more enamored with the possibilities, finally bringing some friends to see what they thought, and then finally in the summer of 1912, after finally getting his hotel sold...after finally negotiating a price for the land, after getting his good friend Howard Perrin out there and getting him to agree to put together the club, Crump moved forward in the fall of 1912.

The train and hunting stories are anything but mutually exclusive...in fact, they are very complementary considering Crump's interests and passions, and the events going on in his life at that time.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 09:56:00 PM by MCirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #276 on: August 18, 2011, 09:59:31 PM »
I've never quite understood why we have to think someone was flat out lying...

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #277 on: August 18, 2011, 10:01:44 PM »
Jeez, Jim...I don't recall you ever objecting the 1,000 or so times that Patrick used that term in reference to me?

I also don't recall ever purposefully omitting any relevant evidence or information here as Patrick has clearly done.

So, call 'em as you see them, but call them fair.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #278 on: August 18, 2011, 10:04:56 PM »
Easy Mike!

I was talking about Pat and Tom trying to prove Tillinghast was lying about the train story for their's to hold up...not you brother...

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #279 on: August 18, 2011, 10:38:58 PM »
Mike
When did Perrin first visit the site? Late summer 1912? The last day of summer is September 23. I'm not sure I would characterize Joe E. Ford's 1925 article as an important internal document, but whatever the case late summer or early fall, there is not much difference in my mind. By the way Ford also said Crump was familiar with the site through hunting...so add him to the growing list. You have obviously chosen to ignore that part of his article.

Tilly claimed a lot of things. After reading his report in 1/1913 one would get the impression he had some exclusive story. The project had already been reported in the Inquirer the year before. And talking about a project for a year and formally meeting are two different things. I don't think Tilly's article sheds any light on when they formally met. Would you agree?

I think he actually purchased the property in November from the Lumberton Sand Co. At least that is what was reported in the Inquirer. And how do you know he had been studying it for sometime?

You said you had proof Shelley was wrong; I don't think you have the slightest idea when the meeting took place.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #280 on: August 18, 2011, 10:49:17 PM »
Jim
I have no idea when Crump first learned of the present site, all I know is the Tilly 1910 train story makes little sense to me. First because Crump was not playing golf at the time, and Tilly was hardly playing golf. Second, because Crump looked elsewhere prior to settling on the present site in 1912. And third because the majority of contemporaneous accounts said GAC found the site while hunting. But if you and the others are emotionally attached to the story I see no harm.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #281 on: August 19, 2011, 01:43:09 AM »
Mike,

Thanks for posting the pictures.  As usual with old pictures, we can see what we want to see in them.

For instance, in this one, I don't see a gun or dogs or small game.  He could be on a picnic.  But, I'll take Shelly at his word that it shows Crump hunting on the PV property.  One wonders about hunting on property that you don't own?

I do note that there were at least clearings in the dense jungle undergrowth and that you can see through the forest to the right of Crump.  I presume it is autumn given the clothes Crump is wearing.  




From the complete text below, I don't understand where Patrick is coming from with his fact and supposition argument.  Shelly goes with the hunting myth based on the picture as proof that Crump had hunted there.  Apparently he was not up to our standards of proof because he doesn't give the provenance of the picture.  Who took it?  When was it taken?  What is the location? Where did he get it from?  I assume that he must have got it from Crump's family or estate or perhaps a friend and that there must have been sufficient information to persuade him that it was proof that Crump had first seen the property while hunting.  I see no reason to think he invented a hunting myth.  However, he does acknowledge that there might be merit in the train story in giving Crump a bigger picture view, although for that he offers no proof.  I can see no reason why Tillie would create the train story.  And, I think that Shelly acknowledges that there is merit to both the hunting and the train story.  What's certainly not clear is which came first.  But, as Shelly says - who cares, because "he found a great location".  I don't understand the need here for some to try and prove the unprovable - that one story or another is a myth or made up.  Why do we need to make out that either Tillie or Shelly were mistaken, or worse yet, purposely misleading.


Tom MacWood

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Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #282 on: August 19, 2011, 06:41:36 AM »
Bryan
Have you read Tilly's accounts of how it happened? As I stated the story makes no sense for the reasons I just gave, but if you add to it Tilly's bizarre account of how it happened it really makes no sense. The two men probably made that trip twenty or more times in a ten year period (and probably a lot more), but Tilly claims he remembers one particular trip when Crump was silently looking out the window. Why was this particular event so memorable? Was Crump breathing unusually hard at the time. Was he looking out through a pare of binoculars? Did he exclaim 'EUREKA'? Did he break out into song? Tilly makes no mention of any of those things. What Tilly tells us is at the time this event took place, he did not ask Crump what he was looking at, nor did Crump tell anyone what he was looking at, but Tilly for some reason recalls him looking out the window as if that is some unusual occurrence. Strange.

But I agree with you in the greater scheme of things whose story is right is really not that important....of all the Philadelphia myths this is a very minor one.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 06:56:03 AM by Tom MacWood »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #283 on: August 19, 2011, 06:54:56 AM »
TMac,

Are you sure Tillie was on the train the day Crump saw the site from the window?  I don't think he specifically says that, and get the impression that Crump just told him that he had seen the site from the train.  If Tillie was with him, he might have wrote that "we" saw the site, not that Crump saw it many years ago.  And, it might make more sense to you if you got away from that assumption, which is probably wrong.

While I am speculating, it is also possible that there is some middle ground.  Perhaps Crump hunted in the sandy hills area, but didn't realize it went all the way to the tracks until seeing it from the train and realizing that it did, and hence would be a great golf site because of the convenience of the train stop, or as Shelly says, got a better picture of the topo from the passing (or stopped) train.

I also think you are tipping your hand as to your agenda/mindset/bias when you say that there are many Philadelphia myths.  Yes, we know the Wilson story got out of hand, and they covered up Crump's suicide.  So I can plan my gca.com calendar, will you tell us which other myths you will be attempting to dispel in the coming months?  Thanks in advance, as I plan to be busier this year than last, and I wouldn't want to miss any of the mythbusting actions around here!


Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #284 on: August 19, 2011, 06:59:37 AM »
TMac,

Are you sure Tillie was on the train the day Crump saw the site from the window?  I don't think he specifically says that, and get the impression that Crump just told him that he had seen the site from the train.  If Tillie was with him, he might have wrote that "we" saw the site, not that Crump saw it many years ago.  And, it might make more sense to you if you got away from that assumption, which is probably wrong.

While I am speculating, it is also possible that there is some middle ground.  Perhaps Crump hunted in the sandy hills area, but didn't realize it went all the way to the tracks until seeing it from the train and realizing that it did, and hence would be a great golf site because of the convenience of the train stop, or as Shelly says, got a better picture of the topo from the passing (or stopped) train.

I also think you are tipping your hand as to your agenda/mindset/bias when you say that there are many Philadelphia myths.  Yes, we know the Wilson story got out of hand, and they covered up Crump's suicide.  So I can plan my gca.com calendar, will you tell us which other myths you will be attempting to dispel in the coming months?  Thanks in advance, as I plan to be busier this year than last, and I wouldn't want to miss any of the mythbusting actions around here!


Have you read Tilly's accounts?

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #285 on: August 19, 2011, 07:46:29 AM »
Too funny!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #286 on: August 19, 2011, 09:11:19 AM »
TMac,

I see you are back in your "asinine question to cover my lack of answer" mode.....I think you ask those to force us to waste more time.  But, yes, I read the Tillie accounts others have posted on here, and he clearly says "he" and not "we" discovered the site.  He says its the same now (1913) as when "he first saw it."

That said, they did take many train trips together and Tillie may very well have been there.  You have struggled in more than one post to figure out why or how Tillie recalled that one particular train trip via heavy breathing, etc.  Let me throw out a theory as to why Tillie remembered that particular trip, which apparently has never occurred to you:

With Tillie sitting next to or across from him, Crump looked out the window of the speeding train, pointed, and said to Tillie, "I've always thought THAT land might be great for my dream course."

Or are you now trying to create the new Philly legend that Crump was a mute?  Geez.  Your logic and $5 gets a fancy coffee at Starbucks.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 09:22:49 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #287 on: August 19, 2011, 09:33:49 AM »

I also think you are tipping your hand as to your agenda/mindset/bias when you say that there are many Philadelphia myths.  Yes, we know the Wilson story got out of hand, and they covered up Crump's suicide.  So I can plan my gca.com calendar, will you tell us which other myths you will be attempting to dispel in the coming months?  Thanks in advance, as I plan to be busier this year than last, and I wouldn't want to miss any of the mythbusting actions around here!


Jeff
Since you are not from Philadelphia perhaps you can explain to me their prevailing paranoia.  When I bring out new information or question informating about or regarding William Watson and White Bear YC or Ross and Grove Park Inn or OTM and a boatload or Barker and Pocono Manor & Bedford Springs or Tilly and Bethpage & SFGC or Willie Campbell and Myopia or CH Alison and Japan or Mackenzie and UofM or Flynn and Hartwellville, etc, etc, there are no cries of me having an agenda against Minnesota, rural PA, NC, Scotland, California, NYC, Boston, Japan, Michigan or Vermont, but Philadelphia is a completely different story. Are they more emtionally attached to their stories than the others? I do have to admit Philadelphia does seem to have more than their fair share of myths...maybe that is the reason.

Regarding your speculation about if Tilly was with Crump, or not, if you read his account you wouldn't be asking the question. I know you enjoy speculating but personally I think it is total waste of time when you are missing important facts that are easily available.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 09:40:19 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #288 on: August 19, 2011, 09:42:07 AM »
That's a great question, Tom...I recall in the case of Scotland that you had a great deal of pushback from Melvyn, in the case of Myopia, we know that was certainly a significant debate, you were pretty much routed by others on your North Shore theories, but in other cases such as Pocono Manor and/or Bedford Springs I personally thanked you for your findings.   I know Jeff did much the same regarding White Bear.

I think it's just that in the case of Merion and Pine Valley, with your Barker on a train and Crump not on a train, your theories simply suck and you haven't come close to any reasonable burden of proof, or even reasonable supposition.

I really think it's that simple.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #289 on: August 19, 2011, 09:46:54 AM »
This is what Tilly wrote in a Phila paper early in 1913:

"Nearly three years ago George A. Crump, the well-known player, was on one of the Reading Railway trains bound for the seaside links. Glancing out of the window, he saw a tract of land which rivetted his attention instantly, for, unlike the usual flat Jersey landscape, this mediately it occurred to him that the land would be ideal for a golf course. It is situated close by the railroad tracks, about 15 miles from Camden near Clemonton."

This is what he wrote around the same time in American Golfer:

"To Mr. George A. Crump we must give the credit of the discovery for he found it as he chanced to glance out the window of rapidly moving train. That particular tract was different from the rather monotonous south Jersey flat country, yet there it was with beautiful undulations and hillocks."

This is what Tilly wrote in Golf Illustrated in 1933:

"I have told of our winter habit of taking the train from Camden for the hour's run to Northfield. George Crump invariably was of the party and on several occasions I observed him looking from the train window as we passed through a section about twenty miles out. As a matter of fact his attention had been attracted by a freikish bit of country in South Jersey, freakish because it was totally different from the monotonous flat lands of those parts. At first he said nothing to any one, but quietly, as was his wont in everything he did, he visited the tract and toll option on one hundred and eighty acres of gently-hilled, pine covered, sand land--the tract which he had so intently studied from the passing train."


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #290 on: August 19, 2011, 09:53:42 AM »
TMac,

I re read that Tillie account (Jan 1913) this morning, and didn't see where Tillie said he was with Crump.  I see you just posted a 1933 account from Tillie where he does say he observed Crump watching out the windows on many occaisions.  I guess I put more faith in the contemporary version.  I also presume Tillie would have said "Whatcha looking at Crumpie?" at some point and not have been a passive observer. 

In an earlier post, when I referred to your Philly agenda, I was referring to the fact that all the acrimony on this site re Philly really seemed to start when TePaul wanted you to suppress your Crump suicide findings in your essay.  I can see both sides of that, as in the old days, things like suicide weren't openly talked about and better left forgotten, vs the modern tabloid theory of put it all out there and then some.  Don't know who is right, but no doubt the world is leaning towards "the public's right to know."  There is no doubt that its just a matter of who is in Philly and their old main line mentality vs. your collecting of numerous documents that fuels the debate.  

They are from a more historic area for golf, and they take just as much of an interest in it as you do.  So, when there are incomplete and not totally proven theories put out there, they certainly react more vociferously than most would.  Like everything else, its just the people and their interactions that cause the strife.  I do understand both sides, and I have appreciated all the old articles on history you and others post on gca.com.

And, it seemed to me that when you wrote the original essay, you basically agreed with Shelly that there may have been some merit to both stories.  This go around, you are firmly in the Philly legend camp, and I may be wrong, but it appears to me that you are influenced as much by the acrimony as any new facts.  Granted, you have pure numbers of incomplete articles in your favor, so you aren't exactly off the reservation on this one.

Sorry to have to speculate, but what are any of us really doing in trying to determine in more detail what actually happened?  You are speculating as much or more than anyone on this site.  As always, one man's "logical analysis" is another man's wild speculation, no?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #291 on: August 19, 2011, 10:02:26 AM »
Tom,

I was just about to re-post from the same article, May 1933 Golf Illustrated.

One would think that if Tillinghast lied about this, or made up the story back in 1913, he'd have enough respect for his dear departed friend to correct the record after his death.

Oh...what an evil rogue that Tillinghast was!    ::)

"I have told of our winter habit of taking train from Camden for the hour's run to North-field. George Crump invariably was of the party and on several occasions I observed him looking intently from the train window as we passed through a section about twenty miles out. As a matter of fact his attention had been attracted by a freakish bit of country in South Jersey, freakish because it was so totally different from the monotonous flat lands of those parts.  At first he said nothing to any one, but quietly, as was his wont in everything
he did, he visited the tract and took option on one hundred and eighty acres of gently-hilled, pinecovered, sandy land—the tract which he had so intently studied from the passing trains.

Then he told a few of us of a plan, which he had in mind. This was in 1912, and at that time the Philadelphia district really possessed no course of true championship requirements. The best golfers of that district bemoaned the fact that their play was over courses that were not sufficiently exacting to develop their strokes to such high standard as to make them serious factors in the national events.  George Crump's dream, was to build a course, which would offer a great diversity of play in really exacting form, a course that
would have no single hole designed with the limitations of the ordinary player in mind.  He contended that each club in Philadelphia had enough class players, who could cope with such a super-course, to insure an ample membership. With his own money he purchased the property and entirely financed the work. But, above all, his own ideals entirely dominated the plan and this truly great course must ever remain, a lasting, glorious monument to his genius. True, he sought opinions from others.I was one of the first to walk the property with him and that George Crump finally incorporated two of my conceptions entirely (the long seventh and the thirteenth) will ever be the source of great satisfaction. He also had opinions on various points from Walter Travis and C. B. Macclonald, also from many others of his friends, who, as amateurs, were capable of offering valuable suggestions because they were numbered among the great players of the country at that time.

In January of 1913, George Crump gave me permission to publish in my syndicated weekly golf column of that period the first word of the new course.   An excerpt from this read: "The Philadelphia section is to have a great golf course - one which may eclipse all others.   Although I have known of the plans for more than a year, only recently have I been relieved from secrecy and the announcement appears in print today for the first time.  I predict that it will attract the cream of players throughout the entire year."

In March, 1913, I published a full description of the work already accomplished and described in detail the first four holes, which had been completed entirely to George Crump's own plan and personally directed building, and also the plan of the first nine holes and the 10th and eighteenth, all of which remained as George determined with the exception of the ninth.   IN May it was announced that the British Golf Architect, H.S. Colt, was in Canada and that probably he would visit Pine Valley to collaborate in the final drafting of plans, which he did during the following month, June, and most excellently.   So it will be seen by all this, exactly how Pine Valley was conceived, and how it developed.   In some respects the course represents a consensus of opinion, carefully edited by the master mind of George Crump, to whom must be given credit to the fullest measure.   Certainly one of the world's greatest golf courses, it reflects the genius of one man after all and must ever be a tribute to his memory..."


Here's the other three contemporaneous accounts again (January 1913) from the Philly newspaper, the American Cricketer and the American Golfer;






« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 10:11:04 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #292 on: August 19, 2011, 10:11:59 AM »
That's a great question, Tom...I recall in the case of Scotland that you had a great deal of pushback from Melvyn, in the case of Myopia, we know that was certainly a significant debate, you were pretty much routed by others on your North Shore theories, but in other cases such as Pocono Manor and/or Bedford Springs I personally thanked you for your findings.   I know Jeff did much the same regarding White Bear.

I think it's just that in the case of Merion and Pine Valley, with your Barker on a train and Crump not on a train, your theories simply suck and you haven't come close to any reasonable burden of proof, or even reasonable supposition.

I really think it's that simple.

You are right there was significant pushback from Melvyn, but he did not claim I had some hidden agenda against OTM or pre-Golden Age architects. Hell I wrote an essay about pre-Golden Age architects, which I believe most thought was very fair and fairly enlightning. No one in Boston ever accused me of having a hidden agenda when I brought out the great contribution Willie Campbell made there, and particularly at Myopia, Brookline and Essex County.

The reaction in Philly had been very strange to say the least, and being accused of having a secret agenda against the city is just the tip of the iceberg...threatening emails, threatening phone calls, browbeating archivists and public officials, etc...bizarre. And as far my thoeries sucking, I've researched a number of subjects over the years and my findings have generally been found to be very sound....except in Philly.

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #293 on: August 19, 2011, 10:16:35 AM »
Tom,

Don't broad brush this.   

There are a lot of us from Philadelphia who have argued with your theories and who have not engaged in any of the actions you've described including me, Dan Hermann, Jim Sullivan, Jamie Slonis, Mike Malone, etc. and most recently Joe Bausch with his classic, "Goodness Gracious".   There are also a lot of people from nowhere near Philadelphia who have argued against your theories, including Jeff Brauer and Bryan Izatt and Phil Young immediately coming to mind.

It's your theories that are faulty, it's not the city, no matter what axe you have to grind against it.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #294 on: August 19, 2011, 10:26:52 AM »
Mike and Tom,

In rereading the differences in the original 1913 and 1933 accounts, another thought comes to mind. No, not more speculation on my part, since that is verbotten here, I guess!

I have long contended that the debates here rely too much on word parsing.  In 1913, Tillie writes of a chance glimpse.  In 1933 he elaborates on the many times he saw Crump intently gazing.  We focus so much on both word parsings, that I think we miss the big picture.  Tillie thought Crump first discoverd the site by train.  Since he was a writer, yes there was a storytelling aspect to it.  Or, put another way, I doubt anyone back then figured that every word would be parsed like we do.

I don't think we can rely on exact words to know the whole story.  I don't think we can infer a lot from word parsing, certainly not as much as we have done on various threads.

In general, I think we know Tillie thought Crump discovered it from a train.  Others think he discovered it hunting.  At least one post here suggested that Crump actually owned the land from inheritence, but no one has tracked that down.

I think TMac had it right in his first essay - state the facts of the different accounts and say we really don't know.

While there is no villian here, we simply cannot know more absent any new and real proof and it causes a lot of strife.  For what reason?  If we are interested in golf history, we should all be friends over than, rather than enemies over unknown details, right?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #295 on: August 19, 2011, 10:32:44 AM »
Mike
As far the Crump and the Barker train stories are concerned lets not misrepresent what I have said. I said it was plausible Barker was back in Philly in December 1910, and presented three or four documented reasons as to why, including a Phila newspaper report from November that claimed he'd just been hired and the fact that his train from NYC to Atlanta would have likely travelled through Philly. Compared to you having Hugh Wilson travel to Europe via Argentina....

Regarding the Crump 1910 trains story I have said the story does not make sense for three or four very good reasons...none of which you've been able to counteract. So if the burden of proof rests with anyone it rests with you.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 10:34:55 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #296 on: August 19, 2011, 10:51:17 AM »
Tom,

Don't broad brush this.   

There are a lot of us from Philadelphia who have argued with your theories and who have not engaged in any of the actions you've described including me, Dan Hermann, Jim Sullivan, Jamie Slonis, Mike Malone, etc. and most recently Joe Bausch with his classic, "Goodness Gracious".   There are also a lot of people from nowhere near Philadelphia who have argued against your theories, including Jeff Brauer and Bryan Izatt and Phil Young immediately coming to mind.

It's your theories that are faulty, it's not the city, no matter what axe you have to grind against it.



Who among this group ever stood up and said the attacks against me on GCA and privately, based on something relating to Philadelphia golf lore, were uncalled for or out of line?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #297 on: August 19, 2011, 11:01:57 AM »
TMac,

For my money, Tillie wrote that several times.  Its really up to you to refute it with some facts other than your analysis.  Sure, contradicting reports go a way, but then again, its just as logical that the "hunting there as a kid" stories are stuff of legend, as well.  I say that because when I was working with Larry Nelson on some courses near Atlanta, that phrase popped out of his mouth at various press conferences. 

Either way, seen from train or hunting the ground both sound pretty legendary to me.  We know for a fact that he had the opportunity to see it from a train.  Do we know if hunted those exact hills?  The puported photo, as Bryan points out has no gun, no dogs, no dead game, no date, no attribution, etc.

While you say the Philly boys have a strong interest in perpetuating legends based on two incidents that got lost over time, (Wilson's Trip and Crump's suicide, both of which were known to many, BTW, even if swept under the rug or misreported later) I still believe you are over reaching, and still await your your list of further Philly legend exposes for the coming year, so I can plan my schedule.

Seriously, what are the other legends you purport exist?  And, as to the reaction relative to MSP or other places, do you actively call those facts that you find "legends" which might inflame the locals?  Or do you just say, "Here are some articles I found?"
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #298 on: August 19, 2011, 12:13:10 PM »


Tom,

I've read them.

I'll ask you again, why would Tillie create the train myth (as you call it).  Is it any more entertaining to read than the hunting story?  I think that Shelly provides a perfectly good interpretation for the train story.  Perhaps Crump only saw the golf possibilities of the property from the train, although he knew it from hunting - the metaphorical seeing the forest rather than the trees.

As for the Philly reaction to your efforts over the years, that really comes down to the other Tom.  You two have a personality conflict.  You both seem obsessive about your world view and being right.  I have seen some of the things that Tom has done to you and others, and I feel he went over the edge on occasion.  I'm sure you and David have had more experiences than I know about.  I, for one, don't condone those actions.  However, don't include all of us who choose to debate some of these topics with you, as part of the Philly myth defending team.  I would point out that, in my opinion, you can be quite arrogant and condescending to those of us who debate with you.

As far as the Tillie train story, I choose to accept it at face value.  I also accept the hunting story.  I think the two can be taken together and make logical sense.  I understand that you do not.  Such is life.  Perhaps in time the true story, like Wilson's trip to Scotland, will be factually proven to all.  At the moment it isn't, no matter how many times you put forward your analysis.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #299 on: August 19, 2011, 07:49:51 PM »

I have long contended that the debates here rely too much on word parsing. 

In 1913, Tillie writes of a chance glimpse. 

"A chance glipse"
He was intimately familiar with the land for years, if not decades, so how could his "glimpse" be by chance ?


 In 1933 he elaborates on the many times he saw Crump intently gazing. 

So, there's a conflict in his recollection, which one is to be believed ?
The more contemporaneous one or the one 20 years after the fact ?


We focus so much on both word parsings, that I think we miss the big picture.  Tillie thought Crump first discoverd the site by train. 
But, we now know that AWT was wrong.
Shelly refuted the train story stating that there was PROOF to the contrary.


Since he was a writer, yes there was a storytelling aspect to it. 
Or, put another way, I doubt anyone back then figured that every word would be parsed like we do.

Jeff,

I think, back then, they understood the difference between fact and fiction quite well.

Crump was INTIMATELY familiar with the site for years if not decades, so what would cause Crump to "intently gaze" at a quickly passing strip of land less than 4,000 feet long ? 

You continue  to insist that the only alternative is that AWT lied and that's not the case..
He might have gotten his facts wrong, reported what he heard from a third party or what others had mentioned when discussing PV.


I don't think we can rely on exact words to know the whole story.  I don't think we can infer a lot from word parsing, certainly not as much as we have done on various threads.

In general, I think we know Tillie thought Crump discovered it from a train. 
Others think he discovered it hunting. 

Don't discount that version as it was the officially sanctioned version adopted by PV.


At least one post here suggested that Crump actually owned the land from inheritence, but no one has tracked that down.

I think TMac had it right in his first essay - state the facts of the different accounts and say we really don't know.

That would mean that you're rejecting the version officially sanctioned by Pine Valley.


While there is no villian here, we simply cannot know more absent any new and real proof and it causes a lot of strife.  For what reason?  If we are interested in golf history, we should all be friends over than, rather than enemies over unknown details, right?

Jeff, I understand what you're stating, but, I disagree with you.
Had we adopted your protocol, we'd still be laboring under the impression that Wilson sailed prior to 1912.
At some point, when a body of evidence leads prudent minds to a reasonable conclusion, I think you have to accept it, understanding that there's room for variation.  Shelly clearly dismissed the newspaper story about the train.  Shelly stated that GAC was familiar with PV's land in 1909 and possibly earlier.  Why accept versions that reject Shelly's account, the account officially sanctioned by Pine Valley ?