Pine Valley and Topos

[D_Malley]

if their original intention was to find a site in NJ to play golf during winter.   They eventually ended up with the current site which was at one time a ski resort.  when did they abandon the "winter golf" idea?  

[JESII]

Crump, Tilly and friends began making those trips to AC in the early 1900s...how many times do you estimate they passed that spot between 1900 and the fall of 1912 when he told his friends he thought he had found the spot?

121!

[JESII]

How many times do you think he passed it after starting the planning for Pine Valley in 1910 or 1911?

[Tom MacWood]

I would guess they made that trip at least twice a year, maybe more. That is two trips to AC and two trips back, or four times a year. So I estimate he passed by the site at least fifty times over that period, and Tilly said he recalled one time in 1910 when Crump was looking out the window?

[Patrick_Mucci]

how much of Pine Valley was "discovered/designed" by field expeditions versus topos ?

Patrick,

He used topo because I have the stick plan he did prior to his work with Colt. He spent a lot of time getting a routing to his satisfaction. We know he desiged the course in stages and began construction before having a final routing knowing the first set of holes were fine, while other parts needed more thought.

The key to the design was time and patience. He never settled but continued to explore and refine as he went (even soliciting other opinions for alternatives).

With the site being described as fairly hostile, (Pine and Oak Forest with underbrush so thick/dense that it was like a jungle,), it's hard to imagine that a pure novice would have the talent, the inate ability to see a golf course through the dense vegetation/forestation.

Topos would seem to supply far more reliable data for the novice.

If Bill Coore, a recognized, established and experienced talent had to practically live and walk Hidden Creek for weeks in order to discover golf holes, how could a novice walk a more hostile site and find such an incredible set of holes ? 

Especially when we consider the body of data/knowledge about GCA circa 1910 AND Crump's inexperience.
Certainly, in 1910 he was no Bill Coore in terms of experience.

Understanding the site, especially the steep falloffs, and crafting golf holes seems like an impossible task when done by foot.
It's almost like asking a blind person with no prior experience or demonstrated talent to create a masterpiece with only his cane or seeing eye dog to guide him.

That's why I've felt that topos had to be instrumental in crafting the holes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Would you knowingly tell the "lie" to others ?
Would you perpetuate the myth ?
I think it's a distinction of integrity, intellectual and academic.

Pat, why would Tillie tell those lies to others?  That is the real question.

It's not the "real" question, It's merely, "A" question.

Probably for the same reason that the myth about Wilson's sailing was circulated.
He was laboring under a false impression.

We've seen some of the ODG's contradict themselves in their writings.
We've seen gross errors in their writings.

AWT may have gotten his facts wrong, and he may have embellished a little.

Simon Carr's description of the land seems to confirm that visuals from the train weren't the defining act in selecting the site.
Today, I was driving on I-287, a six+ lane highway.
I tried to see into the woods bordering the road and couldn't see more than 25 feet into the woods.
The trees also blocked any visuals of potential elevation changes removed by 100 feet, 100 yards or a mile from the highway.
I wasn't averaging 75.2 mph, but, I was going about 55

All of a sudden all of the geniuses on this site have declared that a site with elevation changes is automatically a great site.
I would suggest that you visit Green Brook and North Jersey, both Travis designs in North Jersey.
The elevation changes are dramatic, like PV, but, that doesn't mean those are ideal sites for a golf course, especially when the site specifics are obscured by dense vegetation/forstation

I disagree with you that new facts have become available. 

So, Simon Carr's contemporaneous description of the property was "old news" to you and Mike Cirba ?
Give me a break, you guys were touting the site as some kind of oasis in a desert, plainly visible to any and all who rode the train.
A dense pine and oak forest covered with underbrush so thick it was like a jungle doesn't sound like a site with horizonlike sight lines.
And, the elevation changes would be obscured by the forest, especially from the tracks which sit well below the majority of the site.

You have egg on your face, you just can't come to terms with it.
God forbid that you're wrong and I'm right...... again.

You and TMac have just announced that you have discovered another Philly "legend" with no real facts to back it up.

You're confused.
I don't think that Tom MacWood or I have claimed to have discovered anything.
In addition, based on my recent trip to PV, I thought that Pine Valley was in New Jersey.
Did I make a wrong turn somewhere ?

To quote your man crush, "The soul of golf shrieks" when guys like you start making up crap for your own agenda based arguments. 
Would you cite what you claim I "made up" ?
If you can't, please print your profound apology.

Get real and back up your arguments with something, or leave them alone.

Simon Carr's description of the land differs from what you and the other cretins were maintaining, doesn't it.
His description matches mine, doesn't it.
So, I didn't make anything up.
I based my views on the ground level and aerial photos circa 1910, while you and Mike based your position on some newspaper articles, your desire to take a contrarian position and your unrealistic goal of trying to prove us wrong.
It turns out that Simon Carr's contemporaneous account, is in perfect harmony with the photos and my position.
That must bother you no end.
Having to admit that I'm right has to ruin your day.

Anyone can see the general character of the land around PV is different, even without seeing into the land that far. 

NO, you can't.
And anyone that says they can is a liar.
I''l put you on East Atlantic Ave and you couldn't tell me what exists 100 yards north and south of that road if you didn't have any previous knowledge of the area.  So don't hand me that line of crap.  Your personal experience with that area is severely limited, so don't pretend to hold yourself out as an expert as to the general character of the land around PV.  The general character of that land isn't flat, except where they typically lay the railroad tracks..

For that matter, we don't know what roads or openings there were back then.

Then how can you be so certain of what you allege that Crump saw ?

As for TMac, he has to ignore some writings - such as Tillie saying the land was just as it was when Crump first saw it three years ago, in favor of his interpretations that he couldn't be looking at PV because he was also looking at other sites.  He doesn't tell us why not, because he can't. 

I can't speak for Tom, I'm sure that he can speak for himself on this and other issues.
Could you clarify and define exactly where Crump was when he made that statement ?
And, could you tell us where he was when he first saw the land 3 years prior ?
Was he embarked upon a field trip ?
Or was he Standing on the roof of the caboose as it passed the site ?

You can't cite a general statement and then place your interpretive specificty upon it, that's dare I say it ? ...... Intellectual Dishonesty 

Again, the soul of golf shrieks when you guys post.

No Jeff, that's just an echo coming from you.

[Ian Andrew]

Topos would seem to supply far more reliable data for the novice.

Pat,

"If you can read a topo - it's not a common skill"

Assuming you're right about the original condition being dense.
They would need to remove trees to create the base contour plan.
There was no aerial surveying then.

I worked on a large site that was as you described Pine Valley
We cleared centrelines to find out what we had (rock was our issue).
We then shifted holes towards the land we thought was either best or simply buildable.

The more we cleared the more we refined the design.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The original question about topos vs. field walks makes for interesting discussion, even if it’s one of those that we won’t know exactly. 

We know he had topo maps and marked them up.  We know he walked the property.  He used both.  Who can know which he used more and at what time in the process?  The red blue map gives us a hint. 

I know Bill Coore would walk and walk.  I know I wouldn't walk too far until I had a few test routings on the topo. 

Not only do we not know how Crump might have proceeded to lay out his own dream course, I get the impression Crump had no idea exactly how he would proceed when he got started and started to sort of feel his way with both methods.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

That's the question, for a novice, would the topo or field walks reveal more in terms of potential hole sites ?

Certainly, the combination would seem produce the best results, but, could a novice detect the ground features suitable for golf on a raw or hostile site ?

And, wouldn't it be easier to relate your concepts to others on a topo versus trying to tell someone how the land plays out.

[JESII]

Pat,

You're going to have to substantiate your claim that the property was covered with a dense forest of 40+ foot tall pine trees. One of the courses long time residents thinks there was a forest fire across the whole area 15 - 20 years prior to Crump finding the site.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

I agree a combo would be best for most people.  And while a novice, it isn't that hard to learn to read a topo map. I recall a  science excersise in about third grade where they tried to teach us that concept by building a clay landform in a plastic box, filling it with water to 1" levels, and tracing the topos.  Again, as a freshman in LA school, it was easy enough to learn, to.  Who knows, maybe Crump asked his surveyors for a quick lesson.

And, if it was as dense as you say it was, when you walk the woods, you usually keep your eyes down, looking for logs you may trip over, or snakes.  That said, I have never seen a property without at least a few paths cut through it to get me to basic locations.

So, yes, some kind of combo I believe.  As to exactly what proportion, we can never be sure.  And for that matter, it wouldn't surprise me if it varied over the course of the long routing process, from walks early until he learned the topo, to topo in main planning, to more on site visits later to refine.  As Ian says, as the process goes on, its more and more what you see on the ground that shapes the final tweaks.

At least, that has been my experience.

[Mike Cirba]

All,

You can see the height of the trees on the other side of the tracks in the two pictures Paul Turner posted previously, and 40 feet might be accurate if you put 2 or 3 atop each other.  

Plus, as Paul mentioned, the track is elevated above the surrounds approximately 10 feet.   Add another 7-8 feet that a passenger would be elevated and it's clear that there are a number of places around the property where a rider would be looking DOWN onto the property.

Further, if Crump was traveling during winter to Atlantic City (which he was)  all of the deciduous tree leaves and undergrowth would be GONE, as is evident in the picture of the 17th below.   Ask Joe Bausch about the difference walking Cobbs Creek in the winter versus the summer and what you can see on the property.

This is all very funny and ironic.   In the case of NGLA, despite CBM's description to the contrary, Patrick tells us that CBM and Whigham were able to completely route the course in a day or two on horseback over what CBM tells us was an overgrown, forbidden site they could only navigate on horseback.

Here, he argues that you couldn't even SEE the undulations of the surrounds enough to interest Crump from the tracks, first because the train was moving too fast.   When it was pointed out to Patrick that there were two train stations within 1.4 miles of each other along this section, one right off today's 1st fairway, suddenly the issue became the growth.    

I have no doubt that sections had a lot of underbrush, but it's funny that some people don't see this for what it is...another transparent attempt to argue meaninglessly about a course that Tom Paul is connected to in a transparent effort to goad him back to this site.

He's also completely full of crap.






More about this nonsense later...

[Mike Cirba]

We have been told repeatedly that there is no way Crump spotted the site from the train in 1910.  

We have been told that for a variety of unbelievable reasons, including the speed of the train.  

More credibly, we have been told that it doesn't fit the timeline...that we know Crump looked at sites in Absecon and Browns Mills, NJ at some point, before settling on the present site, and it is presumed that all of this happened in 1912.

However, in looking at Jim Finegan's Pine Valley book last night, I came across something that virtually proves that Crump was already looking at sites for a golf course as early as 1910, including the area around Pine Valley.

First, it's important to note that Absecon is in Atlantic County, near Atlantic City, and over 40 miles as the crow flies from Pine Valley.   Similarly, Browns Mills is in Burlington County, or well northeast (about 27 miles as the crow flies) of Pine Valley, which is in Camden County.

Next, consider the letter Howard Perrin wrote to prospective members of the club, sent on April 1st, 1913.   It begins;

Dear Sir:

For some years, (bold mine) a number of men who are interested in golf for golf's sake have been thinking about the possibilities of a golf course easily accessible to Philadelphia, where the ground conditions were such as to allow the maximum amount of winter play.  This place has been located by George A. Crump, some fifteen miles below Camden, on the line of the Reading Railway, just below Clemonton, NJ.   It is sandy, rolling, wooded country, with streams of water flowing through it.   Near enough to a town to solve the caddy question and easily accessible, both by railroad and automobile.  After satisfying himself that all of the various conditions of the soil, the general layout of the ground for a golf course and its accessibility were favorable, and acting upon the advice of friends, he has purchased 184 acres for the purpose...

So, we know that this was something these men had been looking at for "some years" by early 1913.   We also know that Simon Carr told us that the men originally met to discuss this at the Colonnade Hotel, which was owned by George Crump until the latter part of 1910 when he sold it, so it is likely that the original meeting took place sometime prior.

After selling his Hotel in 1910, Crump went abroad on a golf trip with a man named Joseph Baker.   In 1950 Baker wrote a memoir for the express purpose of setting down for posterity some facts about the founding of Pine Valley.   Finegan, quoting Baker, said that Baker claimed to have been a hunting companion of Crump's "on more than fifty trips over the United States."

Baker is quoted further regarding the trip Crump took in October to December 1910;

"In 1910 we (Baker and Crump) made a three-month trip to Europe, playing on various courses - Walton Heath, Sunningdale, Turnberry, Prestwick, Hoylake,...St. Andrews...then we went down to Dover, where there are three golf courses (Royal St. Georges, Royal Cinque Ports, and Princes), and he played 54 holes in one day.   From there we went to Carlsbad, Luzerne, Nice, and the Cagres Club.   Rome and Egypt completed our trip to Europe and we returned home..."

Finegan then goes on to say;

A postcard dated December 1st, 1910, that Crump sent from England to his brother-in-law Ralph Kellam, in Merchantville, suggests that the traveler had in the forefront of his mind on this European odyssey the task he would undertake when he got home, a task he was eager to tackle.  "Please buy for me a large map of Camden Co. of most recent date."

Now, perhaps Crump in the middle of a three-month dedicated golf trip abroad simply wanted to find how to drive from Philly to Voorhees, or Gibbsboro...   , but the much more likely scenario is that Crump had already spotted land from a train that he was interested in pursuing further.   Whether such a map would have had topographical lines is unknown.

Tilinghast wrote in January 1913;

"If I had not been sworn to secrecy I would have told you about this long ago.   Now, I am at liberty to do so."

Why the need for secrecy?   Why the somewhat lengthy delay?   Why the need to look at other possible sites (although we don't know the timeframe for when he looked at Browns Mills and/or Absecon, and Baker doesn't tell us)?

Frankly, we don't know for certain.   Perhaps the land owned by Sumner Ireland wasn't for sale at that time?   Perhaps it was but Crump was hoping to get it at a better price?   Perhaps like CBM foisting the story of still looking at Montauk as late as November 1906 he was looking for a negotiating chip?   Perhaps there were still sand mining and/or lumbering operations taking place on the property?  

Whatever the case, this idea that the couldn't have first spotted the land in 1910 because of the "why did he keep it secret for so long?" theory that seeks to discount Tillinghast's account of a train ride seems to fail quickly in the face of this accumulated evidence.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
There is no record of Crump playing any golf in 1910 (other than his trip abroad). It was said GAC was consumed with business, and as a result he was absent from all the big local events (and national events). Ironically Tilly was not very active either, he was busy building Shawnee. It appears that the story, although entertaining, was completely BS.

[JSlonis]

Mike
There is no record of Crump playing any golf in 1910 (other than his trip abroad). It was said GAC was consumed with business, and as a result he was absent from all the big local events (and national events). Ironically Tilly was not very active either, he was busy building Shawnee. It appears that the story, although entertaining, was completely BS.

I don't follow...What story is BS?

[Mike Cirba]

Mike
There is no record of Crump playing any golf in 1910 (other than his trip abroad). It was said GAC was consumed with business, and as a result he was absent from all the big local events (and national events). Ironically Tilly was not very active either, he was busy building Shawnee. It appears that the story, although entertaining, was completely BS.


Tom,

Are you really that low on ammunition and unable to respond to the new evidence at hand?   Your statements are rapidly becoming more desperate than Patrick's, and that's saying a lot.

Are you saying that Crump never played golf in the year 1910?   Tillinghast wrote in November of 1910 that Crump was not playing tournament golf because of business, but was in Europe (golfing).   He mentioned nothing about Crump not playing golf with friends that year.



Are you also saying that Crump took no train rides during 1910, or that none of his business took him to Atlantic City or any place in south Jersey he may have taken the train to visit?

Tillinghast wrote in January 1913 that "nearly three years ago" the train ride took place.




Are you saying that Crump played no golf in Atlantic City during the winter of 1909/1910 that would have been the time of the trainride?

December 1909 - American Golfer, Photo by Tillinghast

[Tom MacWood]

I don't follow...What story is BS?

The story that Crump discovered the site while looking out the train window on golfing trip to AC in 1910. He wasn't even playing golf in 1910, and apparently neither was Tilly.

Mike
I have no idea if GAC made any train trips or not in 1910, but Tilly specifically said they were on a golfing excursion to AC. No golf = no golfing excursion to AC = bogus story.

[Tom MacWood]

There is a reason why the others claimed Crump discovered the site while hunting.

[JESII]

There is a reason why the others claimed Crump discovered the site while hunting.

What do you think that reason was?

[Tom MacWood]

....the reason is Crump told them thats how it happened. When you think about it Tilly's story never really made much sense anyway....they made 100+ trips by the site, but for whatever reason that particular trip registered with Tilly, when he saw Crump looking out the train window, as if that is something unusual. Its pretty common for people to be looking out train, plane and automobile windows. Add to it that Crump apparently never mentioned to anyone at the time what he saw or what he was looking at. Add to it that apparently neither man was playing golf in 1910. Add to it that Crump considered two other sites before deciding on the present site in 1912, two years after this tale supposedly took place. Add to it Crump's letter to his AC friends in 1912. Add it that Tilly was a notorious drinker, and as you know hitting the sause is not really conducive to observation faculties....

[Joe Bausch]

....the reason is Crump told them thats how it happened. When you think about it Tilly's story never really made much sense anyway....they made 100+ trips by the site, but for whatever reason that particular trip registered with Tilly, when he saw Crump looking out the train window, as if that is something unusual. Its pretty common for people to be looking out train, plane and automobile windows. Add to it that Crump apparently never mentioned to anyone at the time what he saw or what he was looking at. Add to it that apparently neither man was playing golf in 1910. Add to it that Crump considered two other sites before deciding on the present site in 1912, two years after this tale supposedly took place. Add to it Crump's letter to his friends in 1912. Add it that Tilly was a notorious drinker, and as you know hitting the sause is not really conducive to observation faculties....

Goodness gracious.

[Mike Cirba]

wow...when Joe Bausch can no longer refrain from comment at the ludicrous and obvious agenda designed to discredit Tillinghast because of what he wrote contemporaneously about Pine Valley (and Merion), you know things have gone completely off the rails here.   

[Tom MacWood]

Joe
All things considered I don't think this bogus story is such a big deal, especially in comparison to the other bogus local tales....like Wilson's trip abroad in 1910, Crump losing his life due to a tooth ache, etc.

[Anthony Gray]

Joe
All things considered I don't think this bogus story is such a big deal, especially in comparison to the other bogus local tales....like Wilson's trip abroad in 1910, Crump losing his life due to a tooth ache, etc.

  What was his cause of death?

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

Joe
All things considered I don't think this bogus story is such a big deal, especially in comparison to the other bogus local tales....like Wilson's trip abroad in 1910, Crump losing his life due to a tooth ache, etc.

  Is it true that Crump made a trip abroad in 1910 to Scotland to tour the golf courses?

  Anthony