[Jeff_Brauer]

Would you knowingly tell the "lie" to others ?

Would you perpetuate the myth ?

I think it's a distinction of integrity, intellectual and academic.

Pat, why would Tillie tell those lies to others?  That is the real question.


I disagree with you that new facts have become available.  You and TMac have just announced that you have discovered another Philly "legend" with no real facts to back it up.

To quote your man crush, "The soul of golf shrieks" when guys like you start making up crap for your own agenda based arguments.  Get real and back up your arguments with something, or leave them alone.


Anyone can see the general character of the land around PV is different, even without seeing into the land that far.  For that matter, we don't know what roads or openings there were back then.

As for TMac, he has to ignore some writings - such as Tillie saying the land was just as it was when Crump first saw it three years ago, in favor of his interpretations that he couldn't be looking at PV because he was also looking at other sites.  He doesn't tell us why not, because he can't. 

Again, the soul of golf shrieks when you guys post.

[JSlonis]

"The club property is located along the main line of the Philadelphia and Reading Railway to Atlantic City, and has been pointed out as a beauty spot by hundreds of travelers to and from the shore."  - Philadelphia Evening Ledger, October 31, 1914

Sure it was....but only after they began clearing the site of trees in early 1913. The site was covered with a thick forest of trees prior to the clearing effort, and if you have any doubts simply look at one of the old aerials. They reveal a thick forest of trees in all directions, including the other side of the RR tracks. Crump and his friends only discovered how good the site was on foot or horseback or both. These legends die hard, especially in Philadelphia.

Simon Carr, January 1915:

"The tract was heavily wooded with pine and oak, and had an undergrowth as dense as a jungle. For a month it was gone over carefully on foot; every detail of conformation was noted...During the following winter and early spring, enough of the land was cleared to reveal the main features of the property, and to disclose the contour of the ground."

[/color]

Have you ever been to South Jersey or even seen the site where Pine Valley exists?  

YES, I've been going there since 1964, so I think that gives me a reasonable degree of familiarity.

Regardless if it was covered in trees and growth,

REGARDLESS ?
That's the whole point, one which you rejected, then embraced and now discard.

Simon Carr declared it was inpenetrable, heavily wooded with Pine and Oak and underbrush as thick as a jungle.

So now, Mike, Jeff and all of the supporters of the myth, how could anyone possibly see 25 feet, or even 50 feet into that forest ?
Tell us, with 40+ foot high Pines and Oaks adjacent to the tracks, with underbrush as thick as a jungle, how could anyone see anything beyond 50 feet, let alone elevation changes 1/4. 1/2 and 1 mile from the tracks ?  Fact is, they couldn't, the woods and underbrush obscured everything not immediately adjacent to the tracks.

Your blind support of the myth is absurd in the face of the facts and prudent reasoning.

you'd have to be blind not to see the difference of this land and its topography if you rode by it.  

Mike, how can you say that ?
Don't you understand that if a dense barrier of tall trees and dense undergrowth obstructed your vision at 50 feet that you couldn't see the elevation changes 1/4. 1/2 and 1 mile away ?

How much longer are you going to cling to the myth in the face of Simon Carr's detailed description telling you that the land was an inpenetrable forest ?

Especially without all the surrounding development at the time, this particular piece of property must have stuck out like a sore thumb.

YIKES.
You can't be that blind, that idealogically driven that you can't see the sheer folly, the sheer stupidity, the sheer inaccuracy of your remarks.
Remarks made in desperation, trying to justify your now destroyed myth..
Remarks made in an attempt to salvage your position.

Mike, the Titanic has sunk, and you're in your stateroom, remaining in denial as to your fate

There is no other site in SJ that is even remotely like the land in Pine Valley or even some of the land you'd find at Trump's Pine Hill course.
Two things.  As I said to Jim Sullivan, the topos of the area don't support your contention.
And secondly, it doesn't matter, you could NOT see the elevation changes, you could not see the terrain from the train due to the dense, tall, Pine and Oak trees and dense undergrowth.  

A contemporaneous source, one intimately involved in almost every facet of Pine Valley, Simon Carr, told us so, yet you continue to dispute him, while at the same time posting third party newspaper articles and claiming them to be "The Gospel".
Surely, even you see the idiocy of your position.  

It's a geological oddity in the middle of what is a fairly flat area of land.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
Just take a look at USGA survey/topo maps of the area and you'll see plenty of elevation changes .
The site that the 18 hole course occupies at Pine Valley is NOT unusual topo surrounded by flats.

Given that, it's certainly not a stretch to think that Crump would want to go explore the site after seeing it.  

Yeah, sure, except that they could NOT see it from the train.
It was obscured by a dense forest of pines and oaks, with jungle like underbrush.

I understand that he couldn't have known how great this site actually was by view from a train, but it wouldn't take you long to figure it out once there on foot.

Oh, so now, in the face of overwhelming evidence supporting my premise, you're changing your tune.
The problem is, he couldn't see anything from the train.

I think this gives credence to Tom MacWood's premise that he uncovered more about the site on horseback and foot, after being familiar with it from prior experience, and not from seeing the site from the train.

As to Tom MacWood's shift in position from his early essay to current date, it's not unusual to amend one's position as more information is uncovered.

Some, despite the revelation of information to the contrary, still cling to their original position.
To Tom's credit, he's altered his position as the facts have come to light.

Pat,

I wrote what you responded to, not Mike.  I simply don't understand how it is difficult to fathom that Crump may have spotted this site on his many travels between Philly and AC.  Pine Hill has the highest elevation in all of South Jersey except for one small spot in Tabernacle.  It is the highest point in Camden County, the area through where that train traveled. If you are taking the train ride that they did, how could you not notice a distinct difference in the land around Sumner Station/Pine Valley compared with the rest of the route to the shore?  I've traveled the inner road along the tracks on the property, there are plenty of trees and scrub now, even if there were no course there, they wouldn't prevent me from being able to tell I'm traveling uphill quite a bit.

What is the issue here exactly?  It's been reported that Crump spotted this site from the train, that he further explored it on foot.  Likely all true to some extent or another.  Is it the assertion of your group that the whole train story is a total myth? If so, why?  What would be the point for Tillinghast to give an invalid account of what occured?  It's not like someone else is trying to take credit for finding the site and creating the club. Why would there be any motivation to skew the facts?

[JSlonis]

The Pine Hill site that Trump's course sits on is the former site of Ski/Action Mountain.  The ONLY area large enough and with enough elevation that was ever used for skiing in SJ.  It was open from the 1960's until 1986.  Given that Pine Valley sites at similar elevation, I would think that an intellegent person in either 1810, 1910, or 2011 would notice something different was going on topographically in that region of SJ.  

[Tom MacWood]

Have you ever been to South Jersey or even seen the site where Pine Valley exists?  Regardless if it was covered in trees and growth, you'd have to be blind not to see the difference of this land and its topography if you rode by it.  Especially without all the surrounding development at the time, this particular piece of property must have stuck out like a sore thumb. There is no other site in SJ that is even remotely like the land in Pine Valley or even some of the land you'd find at Trump's Pine Hill course. It's a geological oddity in the middle of what is a fairly flat area of land.

Given that, it's certainly not a stretch to think that Crump would want to go explore the site after seeing it.  I understand that he couldn't have known how great this site actually was by view from a train, but it wouldn't take you long to figure it out once there on foot.

I have been to Philadelphia and South Jersey, and I probably should ask you if you have ever done any historical research, but I won't because it has no bearing. This is what Crump wrote to his friends and fellow AC train traveler in the fall of 1912:

"I think I have landed on something very fine. It is 14 miles below Camden, at a stop called Sumner, on the Reading RR to Atlantic City--a sandy soil, with rolling ground among the pines."

Does that sound like he found the site in 1910, as Tilly claimed, or that it was an obvious landmark to all who often made that train trip from Philly to AC?

[Mike Cirba]

There's a full moon out tonight, yes?

[Tom MacWood]

Would you knowingly tell the "lie" to others ?

Would you perpetuate the myth ?

I think it's a distinction of integrity, intellectual and academic.

Pat, why would Tillie tell those lies to others?  That is the real question.


I disagree with you that new facts have become available.  You and TMac have just announced that you have discovered another Philly "legend" with no real facts to back it up.

To quote your man crush, "The soul of golf shrieks" when guys like you start making up crap for your own agenda based arguments.  Get real and back up your arguments with something, or leave them alone.


Anyone can see the general character of the land around PV is different, even without seeing into the land that far.  For that matter, we don't know what roads or openings there were back then.

As for TMac, he has to ignore some writings - such as Tillie saying the land was just as it was when Crump first saw it three years ago, in favor of his interpretations that he couldn't be looking at PV because he was also looking at other sites.  He doesn't tell us why not, because he can't.  

Again, the soul of golf shrieks when you guys post.

We are talking about Crump's discovery. Why would you put all your eggs in Tilly's basket while ignoring what Crump and others said?

[Tom MacWood]

There's a full moon out tonight, yes?

I think you and the others must operate under a constant full moon. As far as I can tell your method is to start with an accepted truth, and then to take and manipulate the research in order to support the accepted truth, in stead of the other way around, gather and interpret the research in order to discover what really happened. Your method results in Colt, CBM, Barker and Alison getting swept under the rug.

[Mike Cirba]

The link below takes you to a topographical survey of the area around Pine Valley.

Beginning on the railroad just below (southeast of) Clementon Lake, the land begins to take on very unusual characteristics.

Feel free to navigate at will to look for other places in south Jersey and you will find flat, flat, flat.  

As Jamie, Jim Sullivan, and others who have been there many times point out, you couldn't have missed the uniqueness of the rolling, sandy site from a plane, from a train, from a box, with a fox.

Not unless you wanted to create your own version of highly adulterated, agenda-driven, revisionist history, that is.

http://www.topoquest.com/map.php?lat=39.79306&lon=-74.97704&datum=nad27&zoom=8&map=auto&coord=d&mode=zoomin&size=m

[Tom MacWood]

As Jamie, Jim Sullivan, and others who have been there many times point out, you couldn't have missed the uniqueness of the rolling, sandy site from a plane, from a train, from a box, with a fox.

Not unless you wanted to create your own version of highly adulterated, agenda-driven, revisionist history, that is.

This coming from a guy who spent a good year trying to prove Wilson travelled overseas in 1910 (by way of Argentina I might add), and when that didn't work he unsuccessfully tried to discredit Ancestry.com and the ship records. As I said earlier in the thread legends often die hard...especially in Philadelphia.

[JSlonis]

Tom,

Since no one here seems to want to answer my questions, I'll repost the same paragraph I wrote last night...

What is the issue here exactly?  It's been reported that Crump spotted this site from the train, that he further explored it on foot.  Likely all true to some extent or another.  Is it the assertion of your group that the whole train story is a total myth? If so, why?  What would be the point for Tillinghast to give an invalid account of what occured?  It's not like someone else is trying to take credit for finding the site and creating the club. Why would there be any motivation to skew the facts?

I don't need to do any historical research, I've lived in this area for 31 years. I knew in 6th grade that the land around Pine Hill was vastly different from nearly everything else in the area. In the grand scheme of things, I don't really care if the site was spotted in 1910, 1912 or whenever. What difference does it make it at all? I just find it funny that people who weren't around at the time can make such positive assertions that it couldn't have occurred as reported.

[Jeff_Brauer]

And every time TMac tells us how legends develop and die hard around PHilly, he exposes his true agenda, facts be damned.  That is all this is.  Tmac somehow thinks he is going to get famous by debunking established history, and so he tries pretty hard to do it, again facts be damned.  If he wants to point out Mike's erroneous Merion theories on the Wilson trip, then we ought to point out his ridiculous, but strongly (maybe legendaryily?) held belief that Barker designed Merion, despite all evidence to the contrary.

I ask the same questions as Jamie - what reason do you have to believe that Tillie would lie, purposely create a legend, endanger his position as a writer by telling untruths that could have easily been corrected by others involved at any time, etc. etc. etc.  Just because you can't imagine Crump seeing the site in 1910 by train, and then looking at other places before coming back to this one?

Why put all you own eggs in the "doesn't make sense" basket when your theories have made such little sense in the past?  And, what about Jamie's (and I think I asked it earlier) question as to why it matters?  Tillie interviews Crump, Crump says he first saw it from a train.  What part of looking at other sites excludes this from being true in your mind?

Wasn't there a time when we agreed that first person accounts from contemporairies were historical sources, rather than far away analysis?  And yet, that is what you base all your arguments on. Truly, I don't get it.  And truly, the soul of golf and all who love its history shriek at buffoons who call these guys liars and try to change their words from afar.

[Jeff_Brauer]

To be more charitable about it, is it really possible to ascertain the validity of Tillies writings or what happened absent any real new facts?  Pure analysis is certainly subject to charges of an agenda.  But, there is no smoking gun presented to show that what he wrote was purposely legend creating and not fact, is there?  

When Pat or Tmac produces something to that effect, it may be worth reconsidering.  But, just selecting and ignoring other contemporary reports really doesn't change what happened.  Guessing what Crump may have saw from a train is certainly not evidence of anything.

[JMEvensky]

 But, there is no smoking gun presented to show that what he wrote was purposely legend creating and not fact, is there?  

You haven't been paying attention.This isn't about proving anything--it's about obfuscating the record enough so that no proof will ever be sufficient.

[Jeff_Brauer]

My bad!

[JMEvensky]

My bad!

Still no reason for you to stop opining on what PROBABLY transpired back in the day.

You only design/build golf courses for a living--it's not like your opinion is worth anything.Who are you to bring real world experience into the conversation?

[Tom MacWood]

This is what Tilly wrote in a Phila paper early in 1913:

"Nearly three years ago George A. Crump, the well-known player, was on one of the Reading Railway trains bound for the seaside links. Glancing out of the window, he saw a tract of land which rivetted his attention instantly, for, unlike the usual flat Jersey landscape, this mediately it occurred to him that the land would be ideal for a golf course. It is situated close by the railroad tracks, about 15 miles from Camden near Clemonton."

This is what he wrote around the same time in American Golfer:

"To Mr. George A. Crump we must give the credit of the discovery for he found it as he chanced to glance out the window of rapidly moving train. That particular tract was different from the rather monotonous south Jersey flat country, yet there it was with beautiful undulations and hillocks."

This is what Tilly wrote in Golf Illustrated in 1933:

"I have told of our winter habit of taking the train from Camden for the hour's run to Northfield. George Crump invariably was of the party and on several occasions I observed him looking from the train window as we passed through a section about twenty miles out. As a matter of fact his attention had been attracted by a freikish bit of country in South Jersey, freakish because it was totally different from the monotonous flat lands of those parts. At first he said nothing to any one, but quietly, as was his wont in everything he did, he visited the tract and toll option on one hundred and eighty acres of gently-hilled, pine covered, sand land--the tract which he had so intently studied from the passing train."

It makes a great story doesn't it? They began making those trips to AC in the early 1900s...how many times do you think they passed that spot between 1900 and 1912 when he told his friends he thought he had found the spot?

Jerry Travers said Crump told him he had hunted there as a kid. Alan Wilson said he discovered the site while on a shooting trip. Elsworth Giles said Crump with dog and gun roamed the wild uninhabited waste. Thomas Uzzell said Crump's father, who was a great huntsman, purchased the site as a hunting preserve, and the son inherited the property. To my knowledge Tilly was the only contemporaneous source for the great train story.

[Tom MacWood]

I think it is time to introduce some reality to this discussion in the form of a time line:

8/1910 - Crump sells the Collonade Hotel

10/1910-12/1910 - Crump and Baker go on a golf trip to Europe

1/1911 - It is reported Crump will now be playing more golf, business had occupied his time in 1910 preventing him from playing.

Simon Carr wrote that a dozen friends met to discuss the development of a winter course; Crump is given the responsibility of finding the site. HW Wind claimed that meeting took place in 1912.

Carr and Joseph Baker said Crump first looked near Atlantic City on the coast. According to Baker the site Absecon was rejected because of mosquitos. Baker the next site he considered was Browns Mills. It is unknown why that site was rejected.

Fall/1912 - Crump writes his friends telling them he believes he has found the site.

10/1912 - The site is purchased.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

You forgot one of Tilly's accounts;

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I am wondering how he could have inherited the property and still purchase it from Sumner Ireland?  If you have any info on that, it might sway my opinion.  If he owned it, he surely would have known about is some other way than by train.

BTW, when was the Baker and Carr accounts written?  Close to the inception of the golf course or later?  I would tend to believe the closer to the event accounts.

[Mike Cirba]

I think it is time to introduce some reality to this discussion in the form of a time line:

8/1910 - Crump sells the Collonade Hotel

November 1910 - American Golfer



10/1910-12/1910 - Crump and Baker go on a golf trip to

January 1911 - American Golfer



1/1911 - It is reported Crump will now be playing more golf, business had occupied his time in 1910 preventing him from playing.

Simon Carr wrote that a dozen friends met to discuss the development of a winter course; Crump is given the responsibility of finding the site. HW Wind claimed that meeting took place in 1912.

Tom...why didn't you mention that the meeting took place at the Colonnade Hotel, which Crump sold in 1910 as you've indicated above?   Simon Carr wrote the following, which was published in Golf Illustrated in January 1915;

SOME few years ago, a dozen Philadelphia golf
enthusiasts met in the Colonnade Hotel to discuss
the project of establishing a golf course in
the Jersey sands. They felt that the few summer
months, during which the clay soils of the Philadelphia
region keep in condition for playing golf, are not
enough to satisfy those golfers who are truly fond of
the game.

They desired a course where there would be
practically no closed season throughout the year. In
discussing the problem, they had the seaside in mind,
chiefly the region about Atlantic City; but the great
distance from Philadelphia, and the extreme difficulty
of securing a suitable location, caused the
project of a seashore course to be dropped.
The region outside of Camden was searched in all
directions, until, finally, Mr. George A. Crump discovered
a perfectly wonderful bit of golf land at
Sumner Station, on the Atlantic City Division of the
Reading Railroad, thirteen miles outside of Camden.
"I think we have happened on something pretty
fine," he reported to his friends in Philadelphia. His
friends hastened down to have a look at the discovery.
The tract was heavily wooded with pine and oak, and
had an undergrowth as dense as a jungle. For a
month it was gone over carefully on foot; every detail
of conformation was noted; the soil carefully examined
in all parts, and, finally, in October, 1912, a
tract of 184 acres was purchased. The golf club was
then organized, a State charter secured, and title to
all the property was taken.

Carr and Joseph Baker said Crump first looked near Atlantic City on the coast. According to Baker the site Absecon was rejected because of mosquitos. Baker the next site he considered was Browns Mills. It is unknown why that site was rejected.

Fall/1912 - Crump writes his friends telling them he believes he has found the site.

10/1912 - The site is purchased.


Tillinghast writing about the project in the January 1913 Philadelphia Bulletin, the January 1913 American Cricketer and the February 1913 issue of American Golfer;

[JESII]

Is there any chance the Browns Mills site was the one owned by George Crump's father?



Pat Mucci,

On a recent blast email offline you suggested the trees on the Pine Valley property were at least 40 feet tall and extremely dense in 1910. Can you prove it? I don't believe it for one second. There aren't many trees there today that are 40 feet tall.

The fact is, the terrain from the 14th green - 17th tee across the swamp and up the slopes would have been fairly visible, more than enough to intrigue you and I to go have a closer look if we were considering building a course in southern New Jersey.

[Ian Andrew]

how much of Pine Valley was "discovered/designed" by field expeditions versus topos ?

Patrick,

He used topo because I have the stick plan he did prior to his work with Colt. He spent a lot of time getting a routing to his satisfaction. We know he desiged the course in stages and began construction before having a final routing knowing the first set of holes were fine, while other parts needed more thought.

The key to the design was time and patience. He never settled but continued to explore and refine as he went (even soliciting other opinions for alternatives).

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

I think TMac's essay mentions the location, and infers it means Crump is in charge of the venture, rather than being given the task of the venture, and site finding.  And yes, Carr's account makes it sound as if they didn't start looking SE of Camden until after the seaside was dismissed.  So, he was a preist, so I guess TMac won't accuse him of being a liar.  I can understand that!

However, I don't know that this doesn't reconcile with Crump having noted the land earlier, then followed the general original desires of the group to look at the seaside, and when that fell through, to go back to Clementon for another look at the dream land he once saw (or something close to it, as who knows exactly what site he saw from the train window)  No doubt the final decision was made after many site walks, but I never had the impression that Tillie wrote that, only that the general land forms struck Crump as something great for golf.

Perhaps he was just telling Tillie that it was ironic that he ended up on land he once saw from a train window, and Tillie, with his writers eye, realized that was a nice story.  A nugget of truth that makes a good headline.  If that is all TMac is saying, then there may be some truth to that.  

Of course, we won't know, and it really doesn't matter.  I agree with his original assessment that there is and can be truth to all parts of the site discovery story and that its hard to single out one definitive truth, because things just really don't happen in nice neat packages most of the time.

BTW,

Like Ian, I went back and re-read Patrick's original premise. I will go with Ian's answer.

[Rick Sides]

Ian,
Can you post the Crump stick plan?

[Tom MacWood]

Crump, Tilly and friends began making those trips to AC in the early 1900s...how many times do you estimate they passed that spot between 1900 and the fall of 1912 when he told his friends he thought he had found the spot?

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