Pine Valley and Topos

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

That's correct.

One other bit I found in re-reading another of Tilinghast's reports of the train story is his statement that he had known of the plans for over a year by January 1913, which means that Crump had been looking at it for quite some time, even if involved with looking at other potential sites (i.e. Absecon, Brown's Mill) that the group of friends had been considering.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

That article also answers TMac's question of why "did he sit on it."  He didn't.  He motored out there several times and became more convinced with each trip that it could be made into a golf course.  In other words, he didn't make a split second decision, which seems reasonable enough for someone contemplating a "dream course."  While it may seem an obvious decision in hindsight, he obviously considered many sites and factors for a few years before pulling the trigger.

So again, why is it so hard to believe that he (as reported by someone not known to lie and exagerate in any other circumstance) caught a quick glimpse of some unusual property on the train, and then went back and studied it in detail?

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

You got me!   I have no idea what or why these guys are arguing about!  

I sense on some level they are seeking to discredit Tillinghast as an expert witness because they don't like what he wrote contemporaneously about PV and Merion but who the heck knows...maybe they just like to argue! 

[JESII]

Tom,

What did Jerome Travers and Alan Wilson say about locating the site based on hunting there? The Browns Mills Site looks a more likely candidate for that discovery. Also, who was Joseph Baker? And can you just type the pertinent section?

[Tom MacWood]

Mike,

That article also answers TMac's question of why "did he sit on it."  He didn't.  He motored out there several times and became more convinced with each trip that it could be made into a golf course.  In other words, he didn't make a split second decision, which seems reasonable enough for someone contemplating a "dream course."  While it may seem an obvious decision in hindsight, he obviously considered many sites and factors for a few years before pulling the trigger.

So again, why is it so hard to believe that he (as reported by someone not known to lie and exagerate in any other circumstance) caught a quick glimpse of some unusual property on the train, and then went back and studied it in detail?

"I think I have landed on something very fine. It is 14 miles below Camden, at a stop called Sumner, on the Reading RR to Atlantic City--a sandy soil, with rolling ground among the pines."  ~~GA Crump, Autumn 1912

Interesting, so from 1910 to late 1912 Crump was motoring out to this site and convincing himself with each trip that it could be made into a golf course? I don't think your version of the legend makes much sense when you consider Absecon was the first he considered, and Browns Mills was the second site.

When did Crump and friends get together and decide they wanted to create a course like PVGC?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

What did Jerome Travers and Alan Wilson say about locating the site based on hunting there? The Browns Mills Site looks a more likely candidate for that discovery. Also, who was Joseph Baker? And can you just type the pertinent section?

Joseph Baker was Crump's close friend who he traveled to Europe with in 1910. To my knowledge he was only one asked to write a complete account of Crump's formation of the course....from their trip abroad to Crump's death. Travers said Crump discovered the site while hunting; Wilson said he discovered the site while on horseback. Most accounts say he found the site while hunting, Tilly is the exception. I agree with Pat when he said Tilly's story was designed more to entertain than to tell the accurate story.

[JESII]

And Baker said the current Pine Valley site was the first site Crump considered?

[Tom MacWood]

Jim
Have you asked your local friends to share Baker's account with you?

[JESII]

No. I've asked on this thread as well as on th chain of emails, although on the emails I wasn't specific about Baker. I simply asked for any pertinent info. Why are you so uncomfprtable posting or writing what he said?

[Tom MacWood]

I've been asked not to. I have no idea if your interest in this subject goes beyond the casual, but if it does, and I was you, I would seek out the best local sources of information on the subject.

[JESII]

Casual is probably a good word for it.

What did Baker say happened?

[Tom MacWood]

I'm sorry I just updated my previous post...I've been requested not to...what do you make of that?

[JESII]

Ironic!

Send it to me offline and I'll keep it out of the public conversation.

This place is strange, probably too strange or me...

[Tom MacWood]

Thank you for being so discrete.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I am just quoting from the Tillie article that says he saw it from a train in 1910, and then motored out to see the site.

What part of that do you think is wrong?  Tillie was writing for a newspaper, which presumably had some ethical standards against making stuff up, as you seem to think he was doing now.  Tillie was not writing fiction for the newspaper to the best of my knowledge.  So, is this yet another guy that you are accusing of being a poster child for unethical behavior? 

Do you know of some motivation for Tillie to write that thing if he wasn't told that directly by Crump?  Unless you can provide some sort of evidence of misdoing, other than your "common sense" which can't quite seem to grasp the idea that a man looking to build his ideal course just might be scouting different sites over three years, assessing the merits of all of them, I will side with Tillie.  And, we know from some of your other "logical" interpretations that you really have little common sense in this kind of matter.

[Mike Cirba]

As shown on this thread, Tillinghast wrote that Crump was intrigued by the rolling site based on a train ride in three separate publications, and he wrote it once he was given permission by Crump to go public with the details of his efforts to date.   Tillinghast, being close friends and frequent traveling companions with Crump tells us in January 1913 that he had known about this for over a year.

He wrote about the train in American Golfer, in the American Cricketer, and he wrote it in the local Philadelphia paper.

It is absurdly illogical to think he was lying and you'd have to be an idiot not to see the landform from the train.

Tom MacWood wrote in his essay that Tilinghast was probably telling the true story, yet now seems to backtrack for reasons unknown.    Perhaps he didn't realize prior that Tillinghast wrote in 1918 that George Crump made all the design decisions for the golf course and deserved most of the credit?

[Mike Cirba]

Relevant to this thread is something posted earlier today by Joe Bausch, which I'll reproduce below;

The article that begins this thread by Rice indicates accomplished amateur golf John G. Anderson accompanied him on the trip to PV in 1916.

Anderson wrote for the NY Sun, and not long after Crump's death he penned this article, published on February 4, 1918, and it is a good read, IMO:

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood wrote in his essay that Tilinghast was probably telling the true story, yet now seems to backtrack for reasons unknown.    Perhaps he didn't realize prior that Tillinghast wrote in 1918 that George Crump made all the design decisions for the golf course and deserved most of the credit?

Mike
Unlike you and your Stepford wife counterparts I try to make sense of these inconsistent and sometimes contradictory stories. I still think my interpretation makes the most sense, and there is no way in hell he discovered the site 1910. See his letter in the Fall of 1912 and see his looking at two sites prior to.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike
Unlike you and your Stepford wife counterparts I try to make sense of these inconsistent and sometimes contradictory stories. I still think my interpretation makes the most sense, and there is no way in hell he discovered the site 1910. See his letter in the Fall of 1912 and see his looking at two sites prior to.


Tom,

That's pretty funny...glad you still have your sense of humor! 

Although, I do have to ask, who exactly are my Stepford Wife counterparts?  Anyone you'd care to name?     

Also, which interpretation of yours would you say makes the most sense...the one you wrote in your Crump essay, or the contrarian one you've espoused on this thread?   You do realize you've done a 180 here from your very reasonable, thoughtful former interpretation to this new extreme position designed to discredit Tillinghast, probably spurred on by Patrick's latest bout of madness motivated to goad Tom Paul to come back here on GCA.   

[JSlonis]

"The club property is located along the main line of the Philadelphia and Reading Railway to Atlantic City, and has been pointed out as a beauty spot by hundreds of travelers to and from the shore."  - Philadelphia Evening Ledger, October 31, 1914

Sure it was....but only after they began clearing the site of trees in early 1913. The site was covered with a thick forest of trees prior to the clearing effort, and if you have any doubts simply look at one of the old aerials. They reveal a thick forest of trees in all directions, including the other side of the RR tracks. Crump and his friends only discovered how good the site was on foot or horseback or both. These legends die hard, especially in Philadelphia.

Simon Carr, January 1915:

"The tract was heavily wooded with pine and oak, and had an undergrowth as dense as a jungle. For a month it was gone over carefully on foot; every detail of conformation was noted...During the following winter and early spring, enough of the land was cleared to reveal the main features of the property, and to disclose the contour of the ground."

Have you ever been to South Jersey or even seen the site where Pine Valley exists?  Regardless if it was covered in trees and growth, you'd have to be blind not to see the difference of this land and its topography if you rode by it.  Especially without all the surrounding development at the time, this particular piece of property must have stuck out like a sore thumb. There is no other site in SJ that is even remotely like the land in Pine Valley or even some of the land you'd find at Trump's Pine Hill course. It's a geological oddity in the middle of what is a fairly flat area of land.

Given that, it's certainly not a stretch to think that Crump would want to go explore the site after seeing it.  I understand that he couldn't have known how great this site actually was by view from a train, but it wouldn't take you long to figure it out once there on foot.

[Mike Cirba]

Jamie,

Thanks for coming by and introducing some much needed sanity to the discussion.

It's been in very short supply here lately. 

[JSlonis]

Jamie,

Thanks for coming by and introducing some much needed sanity to the discussion.

It's been in very short supply here lately. 

I could only bite my tongue for so long, it was starting to hurt. 

After reading all this mess, I'm still not sure what the big issue is.  He found the site plain and simple.  Whether it was from the train, on foot, on horseback or who knows what...likely all of the above.  He found it, made history and created a masterpiece.  Good enough for me!

[Patrick_Mucci]

"The club property is located along the main line of the Philadelphia and Reading Railway to Atlantic City, and has been pointed out as a beauty spot by hundreds of travelers to and from the shore."  - Philadelphia Evening Ledger, October 31, 1914

Sure it was....but only after they began clearing the site of trees in early 1913. The site was covered with a thick forest of trees prior to the clearing effort, and if you have any doubts simply look at one of the old aerials. They reveal a thick forest of trees in all directions, including the other side of the RR tracks. Crump and his friends only discovered how good the site was on foot or horseback or both. These legends die hard, especially in Philadelphia.

Simon Carr, January 1915:

"The tract was heavily wooded with pine and oak, and had an undergrowth as dense as a jungle. For a month it was gone over carefully on foot; every detail of conformation was noted...During the following winter and early spring, enough of the land was cleared to reveal the main features of the property, and to disclose the contour of the ground."

[/color]

Have you ever been to South Jersey or even seen the site where Pine Valley exists? 

YES, I've been going there since 1964, so I think that gives me a reasonable degree of familiarity.

Regardless if it was covered in trees and growth,

REGARDLESS ?
That's the whole point, one which you rejected, then embraced and now discard.

Simon Carr declared it was inpenetrable, heavily wooded with Pine and Oak and underbrush as thick as a jungle.

So now, Mike, Jeff and all of the supporters of the myth, how could anyone possibly see 25 feet, or even 50 feet into that forest ?
Tell us, with 40+ foot high Pines and Oaks adjacent to the tracks, with underbrush as thick as a jungle, how could anyone see anything beyond 50 feet, let alone elevation changes 1/4. 1/2 and 1 mile from the tracks ?  Fact is, they couldn't, the woods and underbrush obscured everything not immediately adjacent to the tracks.

Your blind support of the myth is absurd in the face of the facts and prudent reasoning.

you'd have to be blind not to see the difference of this land and its topography if you rode by it. 

Mike, how can you say that ?
Don't you understand that if a dense barrier of tall trees and dense undergrowth obstructed your vision at 50 feet that you couldn't see the elevation changes 1/4. 1/2 and 1 mile away ?

How much longer are you going to cling to the myth in the face of Simon Carr's detailed description telling you that the land was an inpenetrable forest ?

Especially without all the surrounding development at the time, this particular piece of property must have stuck out like a sore thumb.

YIKES.
You can't be that blind, that idealogically driven that you can't see the sheer folly, the sheer stupidity, the sheer inaccuracy of your remarks.
Remarks made in desperation, trying to justify your now destroyed myth..
Remarks made in an attempt to salvage your position.

Mike, the Titanic has sunk, and you're in your stateroom, remaining in denial as to your fate

There is no other site in SJ that is even remotely like the land in Pine Valley or even some of the land you'd find at Trump's Pine Hill course.
Two things.  As I said to Jim Sullivan, the topos of the area don't support your contention.
And secondly, it doesn't matter, you could NOT see the elevation changes, you could not see the terrain from the train due to the dense, tall, Pine and Oak trees and dense undergrowth. 

A contemporaneous source, one intimately involved in almost every facet of Pine Valley, Simon Carr, told us so, yet you continue to dispute him, while at the same time posting third party newspaper articles and claiming them to be "The Gospel".
Surely, even you see the idiocy of your position. 

It's a geological oddity in the middle of what is a fairly flat area of land.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
Just take a look at USGA survey/topo maps of the area and you'll see plenty of elevation changes .
The site that the 18 hole course occupies at Pine Valley is NOT unusual topo surrounded by flats.

Given that, it's certainly not a stretch to think that Crump would want to go explore the site after seeing it. 

Yeah, sure, except that they could NOT see it from the train.
It was obscured by a dense forest of pines and oaks, with jungle like underbrush.

I understand that he couldn't have known how great this site actually was by view from a train, but it wouldn't take you long to figure it out once there on foot.

Oh, so now, in the face of overwhelming evidence supporting my premise, you're changing your tune.
The problem is, he couldn't see anything from the train.

I think this gives credence to Tom MacWood's premise that he uncovered more about the site on horseback and foot, after being familiar with it from prior experience, and not from seeing the site from the train.

As to Tom MacWood's shift in position from his early essay to current date, it's not unusual to amend one's position as more information is uncovered.

Some, despite the revelation of information to the contrary, still cling to their original position.
To Tom's credit, he's altered his position as the facts have come to light.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Unlike you and your Stepford wife counterparts I try to make sense of these inconsistent and sometimes contradictory stories. I still think my interpretation makes the most sense, and there is no way in hell he discovered the site 1910.

See his letter in the Fall of 1912 and see his looking at two sites prior to.


Tom,

That's pretty funny...glad you still have your sense of humor! 

Although, I do have to ask, who exactly are my Stepford Wife counterparts?  Anyone you'd care to name?     

No, you can not speak the name of he who cannot be named.
Lord Voldemort.

Also, which interpretation of yours would you say makes the most sense...the one you wrote in your Crump essay, or the contrarian one you've espoused on this thread?   

My guess is that Tom's interpretation has transitioned to his current position as the facts have revealed themselves.

I happen to be a huge fan of AWT's.
His body of work, while small when compared to some contemporaries, is truly outstanding.

You do realize you've done a 180 here from your very reasonable, thoughtful former interpretation to this new extreme position designed to discredit Tillinghast,

See my remarks above.

probably spurred on by Patrick's latest bout of madness motivated to goad Tom Paul to come back here on GCA.   

"Madness" in your eyes because I disputed your blind and factless support of a myth.
A myth that none other than Simon Carr has debunked.

As to my motivation, it was what I said it was, an effort to debunk another myth and get to the facts.

I have no interest in "goading" Tom Paul to return to GCA.com.
I've asked him to return, via posts on GCA.com, personal emails and in phone conversations with him.

I've advised TEPaul and others that I prefer to devote whatever time I have to discussiong GCA solely on GCA.com as I think it's a valueable forum.

While TEPaul has chosen to remove himself from responding on GCA.com, I haven't.

TEPaul continues to "lurk" on GCA.com because he has a passion for architecture but he may still be under the spell and doing the bidding of Lord Voldemort, hence, his fingers are under an unusual spell that prevents him from typing replies on GCA.com.

Only he can break the spell.

He's torturing himself

It would be like chaining me to a stripper's pole in Las Vegas and telling me I can't use any appendage for any reason.
Pure torture to watch the cavorting knowing that you can't participate.
That Lord Voldemort sure is a heinous creature

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jamie,

Thanks for coming by and introducing some much needed sanity to the discussion.

It's been in very short supply here lately. 

I could only bite my tongue for so long, it was starting to hurt. 

After reading all this mess, I'm still not sure what the big issue is.  He found the site plain and simple.  Whether it was from the train, on foot, on horseback or who knows what...likely all of the above.  He found it, made history and created a masterpiece.  Good enough for me!

Jamie,

While it's true that a masterpiece was crafted, I think it's intellectually and academically important to get the facts right.

I think there's a distinction to be drawn.

If a peer of yours just won $ 1,000,000 gambling illegally, and he told his friends and family and a prospective new employer that he just put $ 1,000,000 in the bank due to his hard work that resulted in obtaining several new clients and commissions worth $ 1,000.000, and you knew what really happened, would you feel comfortable with the perpetuation of that myth ?

Would you knowingly tell the "lie" to others ?

Would you perpetuate the myth ?

I think it's a distinction of integrity, intellectual and academic.