Mike
So do you think my explanation makes more sense than Tilly's?
Tom,
It makes a helluva lot more sense than Patrick's High-Speed Rail through south Jersey in 1910 nonsense. Of course, after his imagined Super-Highway on the end of Long Island in 1906 I've come to expect this from him.
What Patrick is failing to realize, simply because he evidently can't be bothered to actually read, much less research any of this on his own, is that this was the site of the Sumner Train STATION, where the train would STOP, and let passengers ON and OFF. Pretty difficult to do this at 60mph without loss of life and limb, I'll admit, but there you have it.
Later, that train station simply became known as Pine Valley.
Because I don't care about the history of any of these clubs, later today I'll be speaking with the head of the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines Rail Historical Society, who provided me with information on Friday related to the station in question. I've asked him what he thought might be viewable from that train in terms of the land in question, which he's extremely familiar with, having grown up in Pine Hill and having been a fireman at several blazes at Pine Valley. I'll let folks know what he says.
In the meantime, this same question to Tom Paul, who is extremely familiar with the land in question, garnered this response;
First of all, the land of Pine Valley in 1910-1912 was not exactly heavily forested, at least not in the same way it looks and is today. It may've looked that way in early aerials ( a solely vertical perspective) but on the ground the trees were small and spindly with a great deal of undergrowth. Some years ago I had a long conversation with Mel Dickenson at one of the Lesley Cups Matches, I think we were in Montreal, about the geological history of PV. Mel was a highly educated geo-scientist and he was PV's president right after Ernie Ransome. He believes the site of PV probably experienced a general forest fire or perhaps was just comprehensively logged (you do realize, don't you how completely some areas of the Eastern US were logged in the mid to late 19th century for ship building and just the general use of lumber?). Anyway Mel believes the trees of PV when Crump found it was a "second growth" that may've been less than 15-20 years old and the on-ground photos of it in the teens would support that theory. Plus Rick Sides discovered recently that the site was a sand mining operation. It was owned by the Lumberton Sand Co that belonged to the Ireland family.
From the train tracks you could see right up the 2nd (although the back of the 2nd tee was raised somewhat as was the entire 1st green). You could see right across the 1st hole to the triangulation where Mel Dickenson's house is and the 4th and up its hill. You could see the entire area the township building and the Ayshire replicate buildings are in and everything to the 1st hole side of it is on and including the clubhouse area. Of course you could see down along the entire 18th which has a pond to the right of it that is all below the RR tracks. As you proceed backwards along the 18th the land starts to rise near the tee and continues to rise for most of the second half of #17 which creates a bank down to the tracks. From there the land descends again around the first half of #17 and the water works behind it. It continues down from the middle of the 17th to the tee and stays flat behind the water works and drops down some more near the new 15th tee and 14th green (that area was once basically swamp) all the way along the 14th hole until it begins to rise again going up the tee. Therefore one could've seen across the land that is today some of the 17th the 16th, the 15th and right up the ridge to the right of the 13th.
The RR track bed is somewhat raised and considering a man sitting in a train car in that era would be at least seven feet above the RR tracks one could obviously see a lot of that part of the site from a train.
I have never been on a train on that line but Mayor Ott and I used to ride all over that course in his cart just checking stuff out (he had his own golf cart in his garage). And I really know that area because some years ago I got clobbered by Gary Cowan in the Crump Cup (losing on the 14th hole) and we just walked with our caddies all the way along the maintenance road that parallels the RR tracks from the 14th hole all the way back to the end of the 18th on the right.So, Tom...related to your question, this is what I think;
1) Crump hunted in south Jersey as a young boy, and throughout his life and was likely familiar with the land in question prior to the train ride.
2) Crump perhaps had the discovery, connecting the site to a potential golf and/or hunting site while riding the train and mentioned it to Tillinghast at the time, who was likely riding along with him.
3) When other possible sites for the course these guys were looking to build didn't pan out (in Absecon, etc), Crump went back to the site with Perrin at first, and then others, stopping at Sumner Station and then getting out to explore on foot.
Once Crump was satisfied in his mind, and perhaps had some discussions with the owner negotiating terms and feasibility, he went back to his group, sending a letter, and starting the club.
So Tom, we don't disagree...at least I don't think we do.
Patrick on the other hand thinks he has it all figured out because he saw a picture of some undergrowth in a book. Oh lord, save us from discovery process of those who want to argue with half a loaf!
