[Tom MacWood]

You are correct, I do have a bias against fictional accounts, your speciality. Unlike Perrin, the Smiths, Carr, Buxton, Wendell, and the rest of the AC crew Tilly did not need to join the club? That is your explanation?

I did see Crump sitting on the bench, in fact I used that picture in my Crump essay. What is the reason you posted the picture...what does it show in your view?

At the time the 13th was discovered Tilly claimed it was Crump's idea; after Crump died Tilly said it was his idea along the 7th.

This is what Crump wrote in the Fall of 1912:

"I think I have landed on something very fine. It is 14 miles below Camden, at a stop called Sumner, on the Reading RR to Atlantic City--a sandy soil, with rolling ground among the pines."

According to the Tilly account Crump found the site in 1910...almost 3 years before, and he had been exploring it for a couple of years, why was he looking else where if that was the case, and why did he keep it a secret from his friends for so long?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Tillinghast was in the first foursome to ever play Pine Valley...he walked the site with Crump prior to purchase....he was close friends with Crump.   Why in the world did he need to be a member and frankly, so what if he wasn't?   What's your point??   Are you trying to suggest that he wasn't in the know there?

As far as the timing of finding the site, the group was looking at sites near the shore first and it was over time that the plan evolved to closer inland.   I don't know why Tillinghast would have said it happened almost three years ago, which would have been late winter 1910, frankly, and I also don't see why it matters.  

It's very possible that it was a brief conversation between Tilinghast and Crump at that time on the train, and then nothing happened for a few years.   Then, in 1912 when discussions started in earnest and shore sites were being looked at to no avail, Crump may have gone back to look near where he noticed cool land along the train route prior.   That's certainly what it sounds like from the JE Ford 1928 account, which I'll reproduce below.

It's clear that Howard Perrin was interviewed for the article, and wait...what's that I see beyond and above the 14th green?   My, is that the mysterious railroad bed and tracks?!? (scroll the blue bar over)   Patrick must have missed that somehow.    

I know you desperately want to discredit Tillinghast as a source because he directly and contemporaneously upsets your "anybody but Wilson" theory at Merion and your "Only Colt" theory at Pine Valley, but I for one am thankful that he was on the scene and told us accurately what happened in each case.

[Tom MacWood]

You are right, according to an article written by Tilly George Crump, Howard Perrin, Richard Mott and Tilly were the first to play over the eleven hole PV late in 1913. Tilly he had been given permission by Crump to write a series of articles on the development of the golf course. Is it your impression he was a close confidant and collaborator, or a journalist at that point? Who is Richard Mott?

Do you have any idea why Tilly was not a member of the club like the others? Short of money? Not among Crump's inner circle? Freeloader?

The reason Tilly's version of 1910 matters is because the story makes absolutely no sense based on the information we have, but a lot Philadelphia golfing legend makes no sense.

How come the letter did not say I say I've finally explored that site we've always viewed from the train window when going to AC, and boy is it good? Probably because it never happened, which explains why he looked at Absecon and Browns Mills before going to the present site.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Are you suggesting that your visual interpretation of the land of Pine Valley from a 100 year old photograph reproduced in a book is a superior one to Crump's real-world, in-personal visual perspective across 100s of acres from the train along nearly 1.5 miles of track, circa 1910??  


Mike, first, I don't believe it's 1.5 miles of track from behind the 2nd tee to behind the 14th green.

 i'm not "suggesting" it, I'm telling you that the physical properties of the site, Pine Valley's Golf Course, and the topography, in relation to the RR tracks, prevent anyone riding in a train along those tracks from viewing 95% of the golf course, since most of the golf course is elevated well above those tracks.

I don't need to view old photos to determine the relative elevations of the tracks and the golf course.
Those are easily obtained and verifiable.
"The" claim, and AWT's claim are FICTION.
It's physically impossible to see the great majority of the land that comprises the golf course from the RR tracks.
Sorry to debunk your myth

Or are you suggesting that Tillinghast, a close personal friend of Crump's, just made this stuff up to create a "myth" for you and MacWood to yet
 again pointlessly and groundlessly argue about with Philadelphians 100 years later?    

I can't tell you why AWT misspoke, but clearly his account, the myth, isn't supported by the juxtaposition of the tracks and the golf course, most of which is elevated high above the RR tracks.  Maybe his friendship led to his embellishment of the facts.
Or, put another way, he didn't let the facts get in the way of a good story/myth.

When you factor in the dense forest that occupied the site pre-construction, a prudent person would conclude that the account is a romantic
fiction perpetuated by those who seem to be enamored by myths    

I've walked that entire stretch of tracks all the way from the Clementon Amusement Park to the end and am quite familiar with what can be seen
 from there and if you can't see the unusual rolling topography throughout that Tillinghast told us impressed George Crump then you aren't
looking.

I notice that you've now modified your account/position and instead of specifically referencing the golf course you now reference "rolling topography".  Since you claim to be so familiar with the view from the RR tracks, tell us, can you see the 1st hole ? 2nd green ? 3rd green from the tracks ?  The 4th tee,  the 4th green ?  The 5th green.  The 6th tee ? Fairway ? Green ?  7th hole ?  8th hole ? 9th hole ?  10th hole ? 11th hole ?  12th hole ? 13th hole. 14th tee ? 15th fairway and green ?  16th tee and fairway ?  17th green ?  18th tee and green ?
AND, I'm not talking about the trees obscuring your view, I'm talking strictly about the elevation differentials.

Now, part  two.   Answer the question INCLUDING the trees    

A cynic might suggest that you are both trying to cast doubt on the credibility of poor ole Tilly, simply because his close connections with the
game and contemporaneous crediting of Wilson at Merion and Crump at Pine Valley back then flies in the face of your attempts at revisionist
history of Philadelphia golf 100 years later.

I'm not trying to just cast doubt, I'm flat out refuting the claim.  

[Jim Nugent]

In the article, Tilly says topo graphs will be a key to laying out the course, because the land is covered with scrub and underbrush. 

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

You should really read more and argue less.

Tillinghast tells us that Crump spotted the unusual rolling land from the train.   He didn't design the golf course from there, but made several followup motor trips to the site.

Or, perhaps you just like to argue pointlessly without facts?


Tom MacWood,

When the first golf was played at Pine Valley in November 1913, only 5 holes were open.   11 had been seeded.


More later...time to play golf.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

When the first golf was played at Pine Valley in November 1913, only 5 holes were open.   11 had been seeded.

Five or eleven, whatever the case it wasn't exactly a ribbon cutting event so lets not blow it out of proportion.

[JESII]

Pat,

If you were traveling through the very flat pinelands of southern New Jersey and saw the view up the valley from the 14th green don't you think you would be intrigued enough to go have a closer look? Although I have no proof that George Crump would have sat on that side of the train so I guess we're back to square one...


Tom,

What difference does it make if Tillinghast never joined Pine Valley? Does that somehow make him less familiar with these events that he had been writing about? Seems a strange argument from a guy who has always argued that mmbership of a club more or less excludes you from actually knowing, or honestly reporting on, what goes on at the club...



What was this thread supposed to be about Pat?

[DMoriarty]

Jim,  I think the issue TomM is addressing is Mike's nasty habit of exaggerating Tillinghast's involvement in and knowledge of these early projects.  He did the same thing with Merion for years, insisting that Tillinghast was out there in the field with them from the beginning, and that he was consummate insider as to what was ongoing.  Turned out that Tillinghast had never even been there during these early stages, and that all he knew of the project came from CBM.  He's doing the same thing here.  

It shouldn't matter whether AWT was a member, but Cirba has made it an issue by overplaying Tillie's level of knowledge, as if he knows for a fact that AWT was out there with Crump every day.   There is nothing to support this.  

And let's be honest here.  Cirba's inability to maintain any semblance of reasonableness makes these conversations impossible.  He takes these idiotic positions and we get distracted on these little irrelevant asides.   So long as he dominates every one of these conversations with his idiocy they will never be productive.

I mean for goodness sakes, his proof of AWT's closeness to the project was a photo of AWT on a bench with Crump.  

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

What difference does it make if Tillinghast never joined Pine Valley? Does that somehow make him less familiar with these events that he had been writing about? Seems a strange argument from a guy who has always argued that mmbership of a club more or less excludes you from actually knowing, or honestly reporting on, what goes on at the club...

Jim
It is always important to gather as much information as possible when evaluating these things, and I'm curious why one of the top golfers in Philadelphia and AC regular did not join the proposed course designed for the top golfers in Philly and AC winter regulars....although I think I know the reason.

I suspect the reason Tilly did not join was because he was spending considerably less time in Philadelphia. He was the Secretary at Shawnee, and was spending a good deal of time there, and Shawnee is not exactly in the backyard of Philadelphia. He listed Shawnee as his home course in 1913, 1914 and 1915. He was also traveling quite a bit on golf design projects, including a project in Florida in 1914. It is also possible he had been contemplating his eventual move to NYC, which came in 1915 or 1916. On a related note Tilly resigned his long time position on the GAP handicap committee late in 1913, likely for the same reasons.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Sullivan,

A good number of early photos seem to indicate that PV was a hostile site, not an ideal site, unless you consider swampland ideal.

When Bill Coore was kind enough to attend one of my GCA.com get togethers, I asked him how he found the holes at Hidden Creek.
He responded by saying that he walked the property incessantly, until it felt like golf.

While I can't say for certain, I doubt Crump had Bill Coore's inate, experienced or learned talent.
And, the property at PV seemed far more hostile than the property at HC.

With such dramatic elevation changes and such difficult terrain, it seemed to me that an individual with no prior design experience, traipsing about thick woodlands and swamps, would be hard pressed to envision those holes.  It seemed more likely that topos were a primary tool in discovering the holes and routing.

I was hoping that a 1910 topo of the area that includes PV might be available from the railroads or other sources.
If so, I was hoping to compare that topo with the "Red" and "Blue" topo.

One of the tangential or even primary reasons for doing this was to discover exactly how much of PV was manufactured.

It's hard to believe that the 1st green was a natural land form.

The same applies to many tees and some greens,

When you walk backwards, from behind # 18 green to # 1 tee at NGLA, you can see a good deal of the manufacturing.

Perhaps the same is evident at PV, such that, personal inspection, along with topo analysis, would enable you to understand how the course was built.  Where it was natural and where it was manufactured.

Hope that helps.

[JESII]

Jim Sullivan,

A good number of early photos seem to indicate that PV was a hostile site, not an ideal site, unless you consider swampland ideal.

When Bill Coore was kind enough to attend one of my GCA.com get togethers, I asked him how he found the holes at Hidden Creek.
He responded by saying that he walked the property incessantly, until it felt like golf.

He didn't say he walked until it felt like golf...he said he walked until he found spots, features...'little humps or bumps or hollows'...that felt like golf.

When you take the train from Philadelphia to Atlantic City you don't go up or down hills too much, so when you skirt around the highest point in southern New Jersey and can see some of it your bound to be intrigued. Add in the water features that are just as clearly visible from the tracks and it's not much of a leap of faith to believe George Crump first thought this location would work from the seat of the train. The exact details and timing of other potential sites is irrelevant.

As to the manufactured degree of several tees, greens and probably faitways, it's undeniable. Would a railroad topo indicate more specific than 10 foot increments? I think the exercise would be fascinating in real life but a useless process on 10 year old topo maps, but that's just my opinion...let's sneak out there and walk backwards ourselves!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

We remember Bill's response differently.

What could you see of the tract from the tracks through the trees ?
That land was a dense forest, not an open plain.

I suspect, like Crump's death, that the discovery of the tract has been portrayed differently over the years, perhaps romanticized, as it makes for a good story.

You have taken the views from the tracks as they exist today and assumed that those same views existed circa 1910, however, the old photos don't support premise.

I don't know about the specificity of the RR topos, but, the RR's were highly engineered, and keenly aware of the need to be above grade and potential problems, so I'd have to think that their topos were of a high quality and detail.

I won't "sneak" out there, but I would love to take a day and walk the course after I've studied ALL of the topos

[Mike Cirba]

For those actually interested in understanding the timeline and actual events as they happened, the following are all photos and articles written by Tillinghast under the pen name “Hazard” for American Golfer;

December 1909



November 1910



January 1911



February 1913



April 1913





May 1913  note the rolling terrain and the size of the trees





June 1913



July 1913



Dec 1913

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

AWT was a third party.

It's unfortunate that Crump didn't chronicle his endeavor like CBM did, then we could have the history, directly, from the horse's mouth, instead of an account from a third party who wasn't even a member

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

Did you even take the time to read any of the materials?

Sadly, your biases have become obvious and pathetic and your positions have reached the point of absurdity.

[Tom MacWood]

Patrick,

Did you even take the time to read any of the materials?

Sadly, your biases have become obvious and pathetic and your positions have reached the point of absurdity.

I have read all articles...what is your point in posting them?

[Mike Cirba]

I just think those interested in the actual facts should know the true story.

I'm quite happy to let Tillinghast speak for himself and let others judge his validity.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
I was just curious. In the past, when you have not liked the direction of a thread, you've had a tendency to vomit all over the thread in the form of posting a mother load of unrelated articles, and normally they are articles you've already posted a dozen or more times before. More or less as a distractionary tactic.

I don't believe those articles shed any light on the high improbable story Tilly told regarding the train window.

"I think I have landed on something very fine. It is 14 miles below Camden, at a stop called Sumner, on the Reading RR to Atlantic City--a sandy soil, with rolling ground among the pines."

This is what Crump wrote his friends early in the fall of 1912. According to the Tilly account Crump found the site in 1910...2 1/2 years, almost 3 years before....and had been exploring it during that period. Why was he looking at Absecon and Browns Mills if that was the case, and why did he keep the site a secret from his friends for so long?  

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

It has nothing to do with liking or not liking the direction of a thread.

If I see wild, unfounded speculation and I know the facts are different, I prefer to simply put those facts forward and leave it to others to find the truth.

I know you guys absolutely hate what Tillinghast wrote about Merion and Pine Valley because his contemporaneous accounts effectively kibosh your attempts to change history to your liking.   I can't help that, but understand how it can be frustrating to you.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

It has nothing to do with liking or not liking the direction of a thread.

If I see wild, unfounded speculation and I know the facts are different, I prefer to simply put those facts forward and leave it to others to find the truth.

I know you guys absolutely hate what Tillinghast wrote about Merion and Pine Valley because his contemporaneous accounts effectively kibosh your attempts to change history to your liking.   I can't help that, but understand how it can be frustrating to you.

Maybe it doesn't have to do with you not liking the direction of this thread, all I know is your most recent dumping of a ton of previously posted articles follows your past pattern, and for some reason you seem to be avoiding answering my questions.

I don't know who you guys are, but I have found Tilly's articles a very useful resource, but that doesn't mean I take everything he wrote as gospel. If something he wrote does not make sense or is contradicted by others, I'm going to dig further to figure what really happened.

"I think I have landed on something very fine. It is 14 miles below Camden, at a stop called Sumner, on the Reading RR to Atlantic City--a sandy soil, with rolling ground among the pines."

This is what Crump wrote his friends early in the fall of 1912. According to the Tilly account Crump found the site in 1910...2 1/2 years, almost 3 years before the letter....and had been exploring it during that period. Why was he looking at Absecon and Browns Mills if that was the case, and why did he keep the site a secret from his friends for so long?  

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

There are a million plausible reasons...well, at least a few...why it could have taken Crump from 1910 to 1912 to decide on the land of the present Pine Valley and to answer your other questions.   Your own essay about George Crump lists some of them.

You wrote;

It is not known precisely when George Crump and his friends decided to pursue the building of a first-rate golf course, an all-season facility, playable when Philadelphia’s other courses were not. It may have been on one of their trips to Atlantic City or perhaps at a national event competing on one of New York, Chicago or Boston’s finer courses. Whenever the critical moment occurred, it is clear the idea had been building for some time.

What we do know, in about 1910-possibly before, but most likely after-Crump and his inner circle met at the Colonnade Hotel to seriously discuss the building of a golf course. Simon Carr recalled, ‘Some few years ago, a dozen Philadelphia golf enthusiasts met in the Colonnade Hotel to discuss the project of establishing a golf course in the Jersey sands…They desired a course where there would be practically no closed season throughout the year. In discussing the problem, they had the seaside in mind, chiefly the region about Atlantic City.’ The venue for the meeting makes it clear who was leading the charge.

By 1910 the Crump family was actively trying to sell the Colonnade. It is reasonable to conclude the selling of the hotel and the desire to create a dream golf course were not unrelated. Crump had lost his wife only four years before and his father had died at a young age without ever enjoying the fruits of his labor. These events had to have affected Crump’s thinking and ultimately his plans. The idea of designing something of merit may have also appealed to him, after all his uncle and older cousin had been successful architects as well as hotelmen.

Jerome Travers gives us some insight into his thoughts: ‘To him Pine Valley was the dream of a lifetime come true….In his later years, when he had prospered and found his notch in the world of business as a hotel owner of wealth and affluence, his eyes and heart turned again toward the wooden spot in which he found so much joy in his youth. George Crump told me of it himself. The vision of Pine Valley transformed into a masterpiece of golf architecture came to him on one of those exhilarating expeditions he was again making over its white-grained expanses and through its quail-inhabited thickets….He was middle-aged, a fair measure of his life behind him…he stood on the threshold of his life, free of responsibility, unburdened with the cares of the world…he had weathered better than most men, to retire from the strife before it was too late to enjoy the fruits of his independence.’

In 1910 the hotel was sold for $300,000 to Martin Greenhouse, a local real estate mogul and the Trump of his time. It is unclear who owned the Colonnade in 1910. Henry Crump, George R. Crump, George A. Crump and George’s mother Elizabeth Crump may have owned it individually or in some combination.

Later that year Crump and his friend Joseph Baker embarked on a three-month European tour in order to play and study the premier courses of Britain and the Continent. Their itinerary included rounds at St. Andrews, Prestwick, Turnberry, Hoylake, Sandwich, Deal, Princes, Sunningdale, Walton Heath as well as golf courses in France, Switzerland, Austria and Italy....

...After returning Crump began looking for a suitable site. According to Simon Carr and Joseph Baker, initially he looked toward the sea. A site at Absecon was identified, on the coast near Atlantic City (where Seaview is today), but it was ultimately rejected because it was cursed with mosquitoes and they felt it was just too far from Philadelphia...

...There are a number of legends surrounding how Crump found the site. The two most common: Crump discovered the site gazing out the window of a train on his way to or from Atlantic City or Crump knew of the site from hunting trips, perhaps even as a boy. Another tale claimed he inherited the land from his father. An erroneous variation of the train story had British golf architect Colt on board with him.

The two most popular stories come from very reliable sources: the train window story comes from AW Tillinghast and John Arthur Brown, the hunting story from Jerome Travers and Alan Wilson. I suspect they are both true. He discovered the wild site from a train with perhaps an eye for shooting rather than golf, but once he began wandering the site gun in hand, he found the most perfect land for golf, land not unlike the rugged heathland outside London...

...In September 1912 Crump informed his friends about his discovery. ‘I think I have landed on something pretty fine. It is 14 miles below Camden, at a stop called Sumner, on the Reading R.R. to Atlantic City-a sandy soil, with rolling ground, among the pines.’ A sandy oasis surrounded by rather uninteresting New Jersey farmland-for centuries the winter headquarters and hunting ground of the Leni Lenape tribe.

A number of friends ventured out for a look. Crump and Howard Perrin spent several days trampling over the ground-studying every inch. Satisfied, Crump purchased the 184 acres from the landowner, Sumner Ireland. After completing the transaction, he immediately took up residence at the site, pitching a tent near where the present clubhouse sits-spending his days studying the land, searching for potential golf holes, alone and on occasion with friends.

The articles above tell us that Crump did NOT play much around Philadephia in 1910 because he was too actively engaged in business, most likely the sale of his hotel as you've indicated.   By the end of the year he was on an extended trip to Europe, supposedly involving business, but also where he evidently played a number of top golf courses and returned in early 1911.

His friends wanted to build a top-notch course near the shore, which seemed reasonable given the success of Atlantic City CC.   It is no surprise they looked their first, and perhaps at other available sites.

Do we even know if the land of Sumner Ireland was available for sale at that time?   Do we know if the price might have been prohibitive?   Perhaps like CBM with his mention of still looking at Montauk as late as November 1906, Crump was floating other potential sites as a negotiating ploy?  

Given your essay, Tom, I'm not sure at all what we're even arguing about?   You evidently agree with me and not with Patrick on virtually every point.

And while I'm at borrowing things from your essay, this picture of the 18th, of which the railroad runs along the right, gives some idea of the size of the trees on the site as well as their general thickness in the untouched areas;

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Did you even take the time to read any of the materials?

Yes

Sadly, your biases have become obvious and pathetic and your positions have reached the point of absurdity.

Rather than resorting to your typical blanket statements, could you identify, with precision, my biases and my positions that have reached the point of absurdity ?

You're the one who champions positions without the supporting facts

[DMoriarty]

No one hates the articles, Mike.  Just the idiotic conclusions you draw from them.  Your M/O is to post a bunch of unrelated articles as if somehow on their face they confirm your points.  They don't.  And you aren't capable of actually relying on the facts (if any) suggested by the articles either because there is no direct connection to your conclusions or because you are incapable of putting together a logically cohesive argument.

[Mike Cirba]

A bit more from Tillinghast describing his relationship with Crump, as well as his take on the status of the final four holes during Crump's lifetime, again from the amazing research of Mr. Joe Bausch;

January 27th, 1918



December 15th, 1918

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