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Tom MacWood

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Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #500 on: August 29, 2011, 07:07:15 AM »
Is someone forcing you to read every thread?

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #501 on: August 29, 2011, 09:22:12 AM »
Mike
Where did you read the NGLA was routed using a topo?

CBM said the property was surveyed at some point, but we have no idea when, and he said a contour map was used during construction. The two earliest plans for the course that I'm aware of are the blueprint in the CBM biography and the schematic on the first scorecard, and neither is a topographic plan. The blueprint looks to be the oldest.


Tom,

Would you agree that the course was routed either using that blueprint plan or prior?

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #502 on: August 29, 2011, 09:26:34 AM »
I believe everyone agrees Tilly lied about Crump's death. And the train story is obviously bogus, other wise you could have answered my questions with reasonable answers. We have the letter to his friends from September 1912, where he tells them he has discovered the site. How could he have discovered the site early 1910, and then rediscovered it almost three years later? That makes no sense. Why was he looking at other inland sites in 1912, if had already discovered this most spectacular site.

Shelley's rationalization makes no sense either, but of course most of the local myths make no sense. I don't care how dense the vegetation, if you are walking over the site you will know it is rolling in nature, you are going to see all the valley's and streams, and you are going to know it is largely sand based. If he was hunting over the site in 1909 then he did not discover it by train in 1910.

Crump told his friends he discovered the site in the latter half of 1912, and that is what I believe. It is very strange how the local hero's first person accounts are often ignored in the process of perpetuating these local myths.



Tom,

If everyone here believes that Tilly lied about Crump's death and/or about the train story I wish they'd speak up.

The only one's here who have claimed that seem to be you and Patrick...everyone else seems to think it's very likely both the train and the hunting stories are true and have said so.

As far as what Crump told his friends.   He wrote to them he "landed on something pretty fine" in the year 1912.   He didn't tell them when he found it, and it easily could have been a few year's prior and kept it to himself for his own good reasons, which is exactly what Tillinghast claimed.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 09:58:51 AM by MCirba »

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #503 on: August 29, 2011, 09:39:47 AM »
By the way, what difference does it make one way or the other if a topo map was used?

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #504 on: August 29, 2011, 09:55:07 AM »
Dan,

I think folks see some significance in the evolution from the practice of simply staking out the ground on foot vs using a map back in the office, or even to navigate and route on the ground.

I'm not sure it equates to the invention of the wheel or discovery of fire, but for some of us trying to understand better how things evolved it was a step of some significance.  

Personally, I think CBM was the first to do it here, probably based on some things he learned abroad, and possibly advice he received abroad.   We know he acquired scale maps of the holes and features of the holes he was impressed with overseas.  

For him to try and re-create them here with any degree of accuracy, I believe he would need to know pre-construction, and even pre-routing, what the contours of the Sebonac Neck property to route and build NGLA.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 09:56:44 AM by MCirba »

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #505 on: August 29, 2011, 09:56:11 AM »
Mike - thanks...

Tom MacWood

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Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #506 on: August 29, 2011, 09:57:43 AM »

Tom,

Would you agree that the course was routed either using that blueprint plan or prior?

I don't understand your question....blueprint or prior?

Crump died from a self inflicted gun shot wound...the cause of death Tilly reported was false. That is a lie in my book, now if you want to rationalize it thats fine with me, but the story is still untrue. Are you saying not everyone agrees Tilly's story was false...they still believe he died of a toothache?

Landed on something pretty fine would seem to indicate he just discovered something pretty fine. No? The PV group was formed some time in 1912, and Crump was give the resposibility of finding the site and apparently, based on the letter, he did not mention the present site to his boys. And the first two sites he considered were Absecon and Browns Mills. The letter was sent in September 1912.

If he found the site in 1910 why did he wait until September 1912 before telling the group?

If he discovered the site in 1910 why did he explore Absecon and Browns Mills first?

It can be difficult to have a reasonable discussion with someone who suspends logic and common sense in order to perpetuate a myth or myths.

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #507 on: August 29, 2011, 10:10:43 AM »
Tom,

All of us have answered your questions here repeatedly.   If you think our answers make no sense, that's fine...I'm not sure how else we could explain differently.   Believe as you will.

But, we don't even know if the property Crump found was for sale in 1910, do we?   Or if it was, was the price prohibitive?  

We do know that Crump spent almost all of 1910 trying to get the sale of his hotel finalized so that he would have liquid assets..We don't know if there were other financial and/or personal affairs he needed to get in order first and how long that took before essentially becoming a hermit devoted to building a golf course, do we?

We don't even know if Crump's friends were ready to form a club back in 1910, do we?   Or, isn't it more likely it was just a few of them talking about the idea theoretically and not practically at that time?

We do know that the group wanted to look near the shore first, don't we?   Thus, we have Absecon with its mosquitoes, and about halfway there we have Brown's Mills, which was discounted for unknown reasons.

We also know that Crump was looking at Camden County by the end of 1910, requesting the map from his brother-in-law.   Even Patrick seems to believe that story.

So Tom...there are a lot of unknowns and knowns that could easily point to him first finding the site in 1910, even if you once again think it's illogical.

Frankly, at this stage, I think everyone is tiring of this pointless debate and if anything useful remains of this thread it's the discussion of the use of Topos.   I'm ready to engage on that topic, are you?

In answer to your NGLA question, my question to you lacked some clarity....let me try again.

Since we are in agreement that the blueprint drawing was the first artifact that we know of still in existence, would you agree that it is possible that the routing of NGLA took place using that map?

Or, put another way, would you agree that it's a pre-construction map?

Patrick,

Why would you say that the history books don't tell us exactly what was written on the back of the postcard?

Crump wrote to his brother-in-law Ralph Kellam, in Merchantville, on December 1, 1910;

"Please buy for me a large map of Camden Co. of most recent date."
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 10:56:46 AM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #508 on: August 29, 2011, 01:01:49 PM »
I'll post the full article later this evening, but for those actually looking for the first reported source of the tooth story, on January 25th, 1918, the Philadelphia Evening Public Ledger reported, in part;

"Builder of Famous Pine Valley Golf Course succumbs to abscess on brain"

"He and Howard Perrin...had arranged a few days before to take a trip south."

"He had been bothered for some time with his teeth and had had a number extracted.   It is believed that infection from the teeth resulted in an abscess of the brain."  

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #509 on: August 29, 2011, 01:41:55 PM »
Pat,

Regarding the picture of Crump in the woods that became Pine Valley, if it was taken in 1909 how did they know it was the same 184 acre parcel that became PV?



Tom M,

Didn't Crump buy the land in October 1912? How could he have possibly first seen it less than three months earlier?

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #510 on: August 29, 2011, 03:33:28 PM »
"It is not known precisely when George Crump and his friends decided to pursue the building of a first-rate golf course, an all-season facility, playable when Philadelphia’s other courses were not. It may have been on one of their trips to Atlantic City or perhaps at a national event competing on one of New York, Chicago or Boston’s finer courses. Whenever the critical moment occurred, it is clear the idea had been building for some time."

"What we do know, in about 1910-possibly before, but most likely after-Crump and his inner circle met at the Colonnade Hotel to seriously discuss the building of a golf course. Simon Carr recalled, ‘Some few years ago, a dozen Philadelphia golf enthusiasts met in the Colonnade Hotel to discuss the project of establishing a golf course in the Jersey sands…They desired a course where there would be practically no closed season throughout the year. In discussing the problem, they had the seaside in mind, chiefly the region about Atlantic City.’ The venue for the meeting makes it clear who was leading the charge."

"By 1910 the Crump family was actively trying to sell the Colonnade. It is reasonable to conclude the selling of the hotel and the desire to create a dream golf course were not unrelated. Crump had lost his wife only four years before and his father had died at a young age without ever enjoying the fruits of his labor. These events had to have affected Crump’s thinking and ultimately his plans. The idea of designing something of merit may have also appealed to him, after all his uncle and older cousin had been successful architects as well as hotelmen..."  

"...After returning (from abroad) Crump began looking for a suitable site. According to Simon Carr and Joseph Baker, initially he looked toward the sea. A site at Absecon was identified, on the coast near Atlantic City (where Seaview is today), but it was ultimately rejected because it was cursed with mosquitoes and they felt it was just too far from Philadelphia."

"Once the seaside was ruled out, the region outside Camden was searched in every direction. At one point Crump considered a location at Browns Mills on the edge of Pinelands region of central New Jersey. It is not known why that site was not chosen, but Crump eventually settled upon a site 15 miles south of Camden. And what a site it was-a sandy wasteland, covered in pine, oak and brush, punctuated by streams and small lakes..."

"...There are a number of legends surrounding how Crump found the site. The two most common: Crump discovered the site gazing out the window of a train on his way to or from Atlantic City or Crump knew of the site from hunting trips, perhaps even as a boy. Another tale claimed he inherited the land from his father. An erroneous variation of the train story had British golf architect Colt on board with him."

"The two most popular stories come from very reliable sources: the train window story comes from AW Tillinghast and John Arthur Brown, the hunting story from Jerome Travers and Alan Wilson. I suspect they are both true. He discovered the wild site from a train with perhaps an eye for shooting rather than golf, but once he began wandering the site gun in hand, he found the most perfect land for golf, land not unlike the rugged heathland outside London..."

"...Early the next year (1913) Crump began clearing the site to open up its full possibilities-no small task. At first dynamite was used, but it was largely ineffective due to the sandy soil. Eventually they brought in huge steam powered winches. At one point 22,000 trees had been uprooted before they grew tired of counting (some estimates place the number at 50,000). An army of men, horses and machines-one can envision the furious activity..."

"...January 1918 George Crump is dead. Crump committed suicide on the mourning of the 24th at his home in Merchantville. The coroners report gave the cause of death as ‘Gun shot wound, Head, Suicide, Sudden.’ Others in the home at the time included his mother, his brother Ralph, who lived there as well, and a maid..."

"...Almost ninety years after his death a number of unresolved questions persist. Why was the cause of his death misreported as complications related dental problems? Some have theorized the story was in fact true or at least partially true, that the severe pain associated with dental problems led to Crump’s suicide. While it is true illness is sometimes a cause for suicide, normally it is a terminal or debilitating disease, not a temporary malady, which is easily treatable."

"The day before his death it was reported Crump had been out greeting acquaintances, not exactly consistent with a person in physical agony. However it is consistent with a person who has settled upon suicide, where there is tendency for the depression or anxiety to clear up right before the suicidal act, often the day prior the suicidal person may appear at peace or even optimistic-the calm after the storm and before the final act. As for the cause of his death, perhaps it was just easier for friends and family to attribute it to dental problems and not face the root cause."

"Another probable reason for the false report was the stigma associated with suicide, particularly in those days. It may be more complicated than that however. There was certainly guilt and embarrassment involved, not necessarily guilt for Crump or his actions-but guilt among his friends for allowing him to get to that point. The entire burden for the project fell upon Crump. It became an obsession, and when events began turning against him the solitary burden was too great. Alan Wilson noted the irony, Crump worked and slaved to see his dream turned into a reality for his friends, ‘we who had advised so much and helped so little.’"

"The question remains, why did Crump take his life? We will never know for certain. There is no evidence he left a note, and even if he had, the underlying reasons would not necessarily be evident. What we do know is Crump was totally consumed with the project. He had no job or career. He had no wife or children. He had many friends, but he lived in isolation. His entire life was dedicated to one task-building Pine Valley."

"And as we have documented, the project encountered numerous delays and setbacks. At the start it was hoped the course would be ready in a little over a year, but five years later only fourteen holes were finished and even those had serious maintenance issues. With world war raging and everything on hold, there were no prospects for the completion any time soon. To make matters worse, Crump had spent a fortune to get this point. If his money was not exhausted, it was nearly exhausted. (Several reports after his death indicated his money was gone) We will never know what was going through his mind that cold dark January mourning, but it had certainly been a tumultuous few years."

* The above are all excerpts from Tom MacWood's very good essay titled "George Crump - Portrait of a Legend", which can be found in its entirety at this link;

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/thomas-macwood-george-arthur-crump-portrait-of-a-legend/

« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 03:35:43 PM by MCirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #511 on: August 29, 2011, 06:53:51 PM »
Pat,

Regarding the picture of Crump in the woods that became Pine Valley, if it was taken in 1909 how did they know it was the same 184 acre parcel that became PV?

Jim,

Do you think that Shelly just made up the date and location ?

Or do you think he had information at his disposal that would pinpoint the date and location ?

After all he was officially charged with crafting the history of Pine Valley.
A member in good standing since 1928 who began playing the course in 1925.

I doubt that he would resort to wild fabrication and am sure that he had ample evidence to support his statement.



Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #512 on: August 29, 2011, 07:32:30 PM »
Jim,

Shelly does not explain or provide any evidence as to what led him to the conclusion that the picture was from 1909 and well as specific to the land of Crump's subsequent purchase.

Also, as promised earlier today, here is the January 25, 1918 Philadelphia Evening Public Ledger;

« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 08:08:49 PM by MCirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #513 on: August 29, 2011, 08:46:02 PM »
Pat,

I'm going to the step before that...to the person that gave the picture to Shelly. Why would the exact location of the picture be relevant in 1909? The hunting acreage in in the pine barrens would have been 1000X the 184 acres Pine Valley was eventually sited on. If the train story desn't make sense logically, the picture makes even less sense.

Any chance you an keep the cap on the green marker?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #514 on: August 29, 2011, 11:07:14 PM »
Tom M,

Didn't Crump buy the land in October 1912? How could he have possibly first seen it less than three months earlier?

How long do you think it took Mackenzie to realize CPC and Royal Melbourne were good sites? Coore & Crenshaw at Sand Hills? Alison at Hirono? Thompson at Cape Breton? I believe Barker and CBM & Whigham spent one day at Merion before recommending the site. I'm not sure I understand your second question. I don't know when GAC first saw the site, but the Tilly 1910 train story makes no sense for a number of reason including the fact Crump was not playing golf in 1910.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 11:16:43 PM by Tom MacWood »

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #515 on: August 30, 2011, 04:13:38 AM »

Jim,

Presumably, whoever took the picture put a date on it.  Remembering the date, even the year, of specific pictures is difficult years after they are taken.  Unless, of course, this picture was somehow unique and therefore memorable.

Presumably, whoever took the picture noted the location.  Given it was the backwoods in a relatively undeveloped area, I'm not sure how they would have known the location was on that 184 acres, unless they regularly went there and knew some specific landmarks that they could identify later when the course property was bought.

Presumably, whoever took the picture noted that it was a hunting trip, although there is nothing in the photo that would be associated with hunting.  No guns.  No trophy game.

A lot of presumptions.

Maybe it's just a myth.   ;)


Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #516 on: August 30, 2011, 04:21:17 AM »


Quote
Crump wrote to his brother-in-law Ralph Kellam, in Merchantville, on December 1, 1910;

"Please buy for me a large map of Camden Co. of most recent date."


And, what if the most current map of Camden County was the following Topographical Map from 1872?  Which doesn't have contour lines on it, yet is titled a "Topographical Map".  What if one of the then contemporaneous meanings of "topographical" was different from our current understanding of the term?

What do you suppose that Crump would have been looking for on a map of Camden County?  Contours? Property ownership? Something else?









Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #517 on: August 30, 2011, 05:10:40 AM »
Tom MacWood,

What new facts have come to your attention since you wrote your essay that now cause you to reject virtually all of your factual material, analysis, and conclusions in that essay, "George Crump - Portrait of a Legend"?

Also, did you see my question about the NGLA Blueprint?   Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 05:15:35 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #518 on: August 30, 2011, 06:36:30 AM »
Tom,

All of us have answered your questions here repeatedly.   If you think our answers make no sense, that's fine...I'm not sure how else we could explain differently.   Believe as you will.

You have not answered my questions, you skirted most of them. 

But, we don't even know if the property Crump found was for sale in 1910, do we?   Or if it was, was the price prohibitive?  

Why would it matter if the property was for sale in 1910. The PV group was not formed until in 1912, and we know the property was obviously up for sale in 1912.

We do know that Crump spent almost all of 1910 trying to get the sale of his hotel finalized so that he would have liquid assets..We don't know if there were other financial and/or personal affairs he needed to get in order first and how long that took before essentially becoming a hermit devoted to building a golf course, do we?

He was busy with business...this is your explanation? You ignore the fact that he was so busy with business that there are no records of him playing golf, not to mention two reports stating he was away from the game. Making a golf trip to AC improbably, if not impossible. Now you have the gaul to claim it prevented him from purchasing the property. Why didn't he purchase it in 1911? The property was for sale then too. Hell there was nearly 700 acres of land Clementon that went for auction in 1911.

We don't even know if Crump's friends were ready to form a club back in 1910, do we?   Or, isn't it more likely it was just a few of them talking about the idea theoretically and not practically at that time?

Shelley, Wind and others said the group was formed in 1912.

We do know that the group wanted to look near the shore first, don't we?   Thus, we have Absecon with its mosquitoes, and about halfway there we have Brown's Mills, which was discounted for unknown reasons.

We also know that Crump was looking at Camden County by the end of 1910, requesting the map from his brother-in-law.   Even Patrick seems to believe that story.

We have no idea why he purchased the map, but if you want to assume it was for the search of a golf course site, why would he purchase a map if he has already discovered the site?

So Tom...there are a lot of unknowns and knowns that could easily point to him first finding the site in 1910, even if you once again think it's illogical.

Yes, he looked at Absecon and Browns Mills first, and I'm still waiting for your answer. I thought you said you've answered my questions repeatedly. If he discovered the site in 1910 why did he explore Absecon and Browns Mills first?

Frankly, at this stage, I think everyone is tiring of this pointless debate and if anything useful remains of this thread it's the discussion of the use of Topos.   I'm ready to engage on that topic, are you?

As I have said before...in order to believe these myths you have to suspend common sense and good judgment. This is just the latest example.

In answer to your NGLA question, my question to you lacked some clarity....let me try again.

Since we are in agreement that the blueprint drawing was the first artifact that we know of still in existence, would you agree that it is possible that the routing of NGLA took place using that map?

Or, put another way, would you agree that it's a pre-construction map?

Patrick,

Why would you say that the history books don't tell us exactly what was written on the back of the postcard?

Crump wrote to his brother-in-law Ralph Kellam, in Merchantville, on December 1, 1910;

"Please buy for me a large map of Camden Co. of most recent date."


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #519 on: August 30, 2011, 06:56:34 AM »
Jim,

Shelly does not explain or provide any evidence as to what led him to the conclusion that the picture was from 1909 and well as specific to the land of Crump's subsequent purchase.

Also, as promised earlier today, here is the January 25, 1918 Philadelphia Evening Public Ledger;



Who dies from a tooth ache? Is that even possible? You would have to be an idiot to believe someone died suddenly from a tooth ache. Assuming it is possible for abscess to go from a tooth into your brain, I've got to believe that it would be extremely painful and not so sudden. But all the reports said he died suddenly.

One his obits said he was out and about the day before greeting people on the street, in great spirits. Another obit said he had planned a Southern golf trip with Howard Perrin. Would you plan a golf trip if you were in physical agony? Another report said he had been having intermittent tooth problems and had some teeth removed. That tells me he had no problem seeking medical treatment. But for some reason we are to believe that he either did not have this checked out or doctors could not find it? Huh? Was his casket open or closed, what would be the reason for a healthy man who died suddenly to have his casket closed? No, he did not shoot himself because he was depressed, we believe he died suddenly of a tooth ache.

You have to suspend common sense and good judgement to believe he died of a tooth ache. Howard Street obviously knew how he died...what are the odds none of his other friends knew...what are the odds all of his friends knew?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #520 on: August 30, 2011, 07:48:32 AM »
This is getting really gauche.   However the man died, please let him rest in peace.


Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #521 on: August 30, 2011, 08:07:21 AM »
Tom MacWood,

What new facts have come to your attention since you originally wrote your essay that now cause you suddenly to reject virtually all of your factual material, analysis, and conclusions in your very good essay, "George Crump - Portrait of a Legend"?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/thomas-macwood-george-arthur-crump-portrait-of-a-legend/

If you need me to cite examples I'd simply say I can't go through three paragraphs without finding something you wrote then that you now suddenly wholly reject.   I'm quite certain everyone else here could as well.

Is it because back then you were objective and over the years on this site developed a dislike of all things Philadelphia due to differences with a few former members here?   It sure appears that way, Tom.

I can see Patrick feeling bitter and resentful now that Philadelphia has clearly supplanted NYC as the sports capital of the world, but I figured out in Ohio with the Bengals and Browns and Reds and Indians you're just used to that kind of thing by now.  ;)  ;D

Because, for the most part, I really agree with your conclusions in that essay and think you did a very nice job with it.   I'm not sure why you disagree with yourself now, but I still very much agree with the Tom MacWood who wrote that piece.

As far as the "idiots" who might have believed someone died of an infection back before antibiotics were invented, they may want to check this out;

http://mouthdoctor.net/braininfection.cfm

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070924025805AA3hFh8

Also, did you see my question about the NGLA Blueprint?   Thanks.


Patrick,

Did you ever read Tom MacWood's essay?  

If so, your argument is with him, not me.   I believe his essay is solidly researched and comes to some well-grounded conclusions.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 08:33:19 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #522 on: August 30, 2011, 10:01:43 AM »
Reject virtually all my factual material, analysis and conclusions? Don't you think that is a slight exaggeration. What conclusion or conslusions have I rejected other than the bogus train story? I concluded he found the site while hunting, and I have not changed that conclusion.

When I wrote the essay I did not have access to the Philadelphia Inquirer archive or other local newspaper archves. I have since confirmed that there are no reports of Crump playing in any local or national events in 1910. There are no reports of him playin golf at all. I have also discovered a number of articles in 1910 that report the ongoing ownership issues he was having with the hotel, which delayed it being sold. Those reports in conjunction with the reports that said he was away from the game, and the fact he looked at Absecon and Browns Mills prior to, have led me to believe the 1910 train story is bogus.

It was reported Crump died of an abscess of the brain. The links you cited are about bacteria from a tooth abscess spreading to vital organs that results in severe illness. Crump was obiously not severely ill. He was in good spirits and good health the day before, and planning to go on a golf vacation. He died suddenly, and his death came as a complete shock to his family and friends. Open or closed casket? Like I said you have to suspend logic, common sense and good judgement to believe the majority of these myths.

Yes, for the third time I did see your question, and it made no sense to me. Could you restate it or clarify it?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 10:09:28 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #523 on: August 30, 2011, 11:12:12 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for responding.

Why would the Philadelphia Inquirer report about Tillinghast (who wrote for a competing paper) and his friends taking a train ride to play social golf over the winter of 1909/1910?   

For that matter, why would any newspaper do that?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #524 on: August 30, 2011, 11:34:45 AM »
Tom M,

Didn't Crump buy the land in October 1912? How could he have possibly first seen it less than three months earlier?

How long do you think it took Mackenzie to realize CPC and Royal Melbourne were good sites? Coore & Crenshaw at Sand Hills? Alison at Hirono? Thompson at Cape Breton? I believe Barker and CBM & Whigham spent one day at Merion before recommending the site. I'm not sure I understand your second question. I don't know when GAC first saw the site, but the Tilly 1910 train story makes no sense for a number of reason including the fact Crump was not playing golf in 1910.


Tom,

How is this possibly your answer to a very reasonable question? It undermines your credibility a great deal. Completing a land acquisition within three months of first discovering it, and therefore considering it, would be a monumental task. Your timeline is off.