The Underappreciated Post-Modern Appreciation Thread

[John Kavanaugh]

Andy,

It is interesting to read your posts both before and after the day you became a rater. Can you tell that you have changed?

[Andy Troeger]

John,
I've been a rater for 90%+ of the time I've been posting, so the "before" sample size is pretty small. If you know the day I became a rater you've spent more time going over my old posts than I have myself. I assume that most people that care enough to read my posts also know the affiliation, so I try to post in a manner that represents myself and the magazine in a positive manner. I post too frequently about courses I like and too infrequently about courses I don't, but that's my personality anyway.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,
I've been a rater for 90%+ of the time I've been posting, so the "before" sample size is pretty small. If you know the day I became a rater you've spent more time going over my old posts than I have myself. I assume that most people that care enough to read my posts also know the affiliation, so I try to post in a manner that represents myself and the magazine in a positive manner. I post too frequently about courses I like and too infrequently about courses I don't, but that's my personality anyway.

My only question was if you can tell that you have changed. I did not go back and read your old posts, I am simply going by memory.  Change isn't bad.

[Andy Troeger]

If my posts have changed, I would tend to say reading and learning things here might have had more to do with it than the rater bit. The admitted benefit of being a rater is the opportunity to play golf courses--I've probably doubled the overall amount of courses I've seen in the last five years. Some of that is due to moving across the country and having lots of new places to see.

When I joined I certainly thought I knew more about GCA than I really did. That's probably still true, but if I'm lucky perhaps I'm now at the level that I thought I was at when I joined. But that's probably optimistic...

[John Kavanaugh]

I miss when Blackthorn was a good course. When raters start comparing Trump waterfalls I lose interest.

[Andy Troeger]

Blackthorn is a better course today than Trump National LA. And Blackthorn has seen better days, sadly.

Sultan's Run should be on this list--it was probably built around 1995! I went back there a few years ago the day after playing Canyata--I could make an argument that everything but the conditioning is just as good! Its mind-boggling to me that it doesn't even get a mention for the state public lists.

[Kalen Braley]

I would agree with Andy wholeheartedly on his comments on Black Rock.  It really is a love or hate thing.  The cool features with the waterfalls, and the green surrounded by rocks really does work well.  Its a completely fabricated course yes, but it is also a helluva fun roller coaster ride with plenty of strategic and risk/reward shots.

I should also note that the massive waterfall at Sanctuary that frames the 18th green from behind is also done very tastefully.

P.S.  Not that I needed any more "proof" but to see JK go after someone like Andy is all I need to know about John and his antics on this board.  I can't think of a more "nuetral/middle of the road/objective/non-offensive/doesn't play favorites" person than Andy on this entire board.

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin,
    National Moonah was the surprise of my Australia trip a few years back. I didn't expect a lot, but some of you locals convinced me to check it out and I'm glad I did. It is certainly a modern course worthy of being part of the discussion. Who is Norman's design partner that was the principal on-site guy for National Moonah?

Ed

Bob Harrison - though he no longer works for Norman - he has gone out alone.

Am glad you appreciated the courses down under as a seasoned well travelled golfer its good to see what you thought of them in relation to some of the things you've seen in your time.

[John Kavanaugh]

P.S.  Not that I needed any more "proof" but to see JK go after someone like Andy is all I need to know about John and his antics on this board.  I can't think of a more "nuetral/middle of the road/objective/non-offensive/doesn't play favorites" person than Andy on this entire board.

Kalen,

How is asking Andy if he has changed since becoming a rater offensive to him?  When I told him I missed the days he would tell us about lesser known courses that anyone could play he chimed in with a passionate post about Sultan's Run.  I don't believe that raters are a protected minority where only their own kind are allowed to discuss the nuances of the "gift".  I admire Andy and anyone else who chooses to teach and coach at the high school level.  He says that rating has made him smarter and afforded him the ability to play twice as many courses in the last 5 years as he had played his entire golfing life before.  Sounds like a no lose situation where everyone wins.  Maybe if we can all learn about courses like Blackthorn and Sultan's run which he discovered the old fashioned way the "gift" can keep on giving.

I do see how you would be offended if I asked you the same question, but I didn't.  I am curious though about the circumstances of taking your non-golfing wife around Trump L.A..  Care to share?

[Andy Troeger]

I actually thought John's question was fairly thought provoking--I do think becoming a rater, especially an active one, changes some things about the way we look at courses. I'm admittedly also more critical even when I play the local muni, as I did yesterday. I knew the 7th hole at Arroyo del Oso's Dam nine was goofy, but the 8th is rather strange too.

I still make the effort to see the non-rated courses in the area--admittedly NM is a bit bereft of quantity but I've seen every Golf Digest candidate course within four hours of Albuquerque, basically stretching though the entire state of New Mexico to Flagstaff, Southern Colorado, and El Paso. There's one in Show Low, AZ called Torreon that's about four hours away that I guess would be next up, but even for me that's a long drive for one course. Sadly, there just aren't very many "Sultan's Run's" out here. Courses that are any good at all in New Mexico have gotten quite a bit of billing here. Sultan's Run would be my #3 in the state behind Black Mesa and Paa-Ko. If there's an unknown gem its probably Pueblo de Cochiti, but its made every state list in recent memory.

[Bart Bradley]

P.S.  Not that I needed any more "proof" but to see JK go after someone like Andy is all I need to know about John and his antics on this board.  I can't think of a more "nuetral/middle of the road/objective/non-offensive/doesn't play favorites" person than Andy on this entire board.

Kalen,

How is asking Andy if he has changed since becoming a rater offensive to him?  When I told him I missed the days he would tell us about lesser known courses that anyone could play he chimed in with a passionate post about Sultan's Run.  I don't believe that raters are a protected minority where only their own kind are allowed to discuss the nuances of the "gift".  I admire Andy and anyone else who chooses to teach and coach at the high school level.  He says that rating has made him smarter and afforded him the ability to play twice as many courses in the last 5 years as he had played his entire golfing life before.  Sounds like a no lose situation where everyone wins.  Maybe if we can all learn about courses like Blackthorn and Sultan's run which he discovered the old fashioned way the "gift" can keep on giving.

I do see how you would be offended if I asked you the same question, but I didn't.  I am curious though about the circumstances of taking your non-golfing wife around Trump L.A..  Care to share?

John:

I think you are implying that being a rater changes the courses one goes to see -- specifically the lesser praised courses.  That is NOT universally true.  I was in Colorado this past weekend and I played Colorado Golf Club, Ballyneal and Murphy Creek.  I made arrangements to play these courses the "old fashioned way".  I payed full boat for all 3 for myself and my son.  I only wish I could come on this board and rave about Murphy Creek as it certainly was affordable golf....but unfortunately, it was no Sultan's Run.

Likewise, Andy deserves the benefit of the doubt.  We are all different after 5 years of reading/posting/studying about golf architecture and nearly everyone's posts evolve as they mature and get more knowledge and experience.  It would be very difficult to discern if the changes in Andy's posts are from being a rater or simply from time and experience.

Bang on a different drum,

Bart

[Kalen Braley]

I do see how you would be offended if I asked you the same question, but I didn't.  I am curious though about the circumstances of taking your non-golfing wife around Trump L.A..  Care to share?

Sorry to disappoint John...its a complete non-story.

We were in the LA area about 4 years ago on a mini weekend getaway. We were driving along the coastal roads taking in the sights and stumbled across it as I didn't even realize its location.  Safe to say I wasn't even close to being tempted to tell her to go get her nails down while I played a round. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Bart,

I'm glad you know members at Ballyneal and Colorado Golf Club where you can gain access without using your card.  Most raters I know are well connected though out the industry and rarely cold call courses.  I am glad that you do not either.

I did not mean to offend Andy and I doubt that he would say I had.  I have known him for almost 10 years and simply asked him if he had noticed a change in himself.  I think we all agree that the world would be better if I changed, so I do not see the offense in asking.

The houses at Murphy Creek are obtrusive to the point they can not be ignored.  I am happy for the people that chose my brother to design the course in that he delivered a product that people wanted to live near.  I would call that a successful relationship and project unlike the financial disaster that is Sultan's Run.  I live less than 60 miles from the course and play it often.

[John Kavanaugh]

I do see how you would be offended if I asked you the same question, but I didn't.  I am curious though about the circumstances of taking your non-golfing wife around Trump L.A..  Care to share?

Sorry to disappoint John...its a complete non-story.

We were in the LA area about 4 years ago on a mini weekend getaway. We were driving along the coastal roads taking in the sights and stumbled across it as I didn't even realize its location.  Safe to say I wasn't even close to being tempted to tell her to go get her nails down while I played a round. 

Are you telling me that you just dropped in and paid full fare at a course you knew you would not like during a weekend getaway with your wife?  My God man, don't tell me you were then also paired with strangers.  No wonder the divorce rate amongst Golfweek raters is higher than the national average.  Wow, that $300 could have gone a long way to pamper her, I don't get it.

[Kalen Braley]

I do see how you would be offended if I asked you the same question, but I didn't.  I am curious though about the circumstances of taking your non-golfing wife around Trump L.A..  Care to share?

Sorry to disappoint John...its a complete non-story.

We were in the LA area about 4 years ago on a mini weekend getaway. We were driving along the coastal roads taking in the sights and stumbled across it as I didn't even realize its location.  Safe to say I wasn't even close to being tempted to tell her to go get her nails down while I played a round. 

Are you telling me that you just dropped in and paid full fare at a course you knew you would not like during a weekend getaway with your wife?  My God man, don't tell me you were then also paired with strangers.  No wonder the divorce rate amongst Golfweek raters is higher than the national average.  Wow, that $300 could have gone a long way to pamper her, I don't get it.

John,

I must admit that was almost funny... only you could twist my words in your head enough to somehow think that a 10 minute pit stop with a quick look-around, turned into me actually playing LA Trump...

[John Kavanaugh]

I do see how you would be offended if I asked you the same question, but I didn't.  I am curious though about the circumstances of taking your non-golfing wife around Trump L.A..  Care to share?

Sorry to disappoint John...its a complete non-story.

We were in the LA area about 4 years ago on a mini weekend getaway. We were driving along the coastal roads taking in the sights and stumbled across it as I didn't even realize its location.  Safe to say I wasn't even close to being tempted to tell her to go get her nails down while I played a round. 

Are you telling me that you just dropped in and paid full fare at a course you knew you would not like during a weekend getaway with your wife?  My God man, don't tell me you were then also paired with strangers.  No wonder the divorce rate amongst Golfweek raters is higher than the national average.  Wow, that $300 could have gone a long way to pamper her, I don't get it.

John,

I must admit that was almost funny... only you could twist my words in your head enough to somehow think that a 10 minute pit stop with a quick look-around, turned into me actually playing LA Trump...

Sorry, when you were disparaging the course I thought you had taken the time to actually play it.  My mistake.  Now, you did play Black Rock I hope.

[John Kavanaugh]

Greg,

The problem with that is that what the average US golfer wants is not in the best interest of keeping costs down.

But who gives a s*** about keeping costs down, especially at a place like Alotian?

And what's wrong with waterfalls?  I, for one, enjoyed seeing them at Trump LA.  Did it make the golf course better? No.  Did it make the experience better? Yes.  Waterfalls - They're fun, they're pretty, they add a couple of bucks to the green fees.  Who cares.

Mark,

You serious about Trump LA?  Funny thing is, I asked my wife about them when we were down there a few years ago.  She said they were the most ridiculous thing she's ever seen on a golf course...and she doesn't even play.

Funny thing is that Sultan's Run also has a waterfall with water propelled by machine.  It is fun to look at and does affect play.  You would have to play the course to know that.

[Kalen Braley]

I do see how you would be offended if I asked you the same question, but I didn't.  I am curious though about the circumstances of taking your non-golfing wife around Trump L.A..  Care to share?

Sorry to disappoint John...its a complete non-story.

We were in the LA area about 4 years ago on a mini weekend getaway. We were driving along the coastal roads taking in the sights and stumbled across it as I didn't even realize its location.  Safe to say I wasn't even close to being tempted to tell her to go get her nails down while I played a round. 

Are you telling me that you just dropped in and paid full fare at a course you knew you would not like during a weekend getaway with your wife?  My God man, don't tell me you were then also paired with strangers.  No wonder the divorce rate amongst Golfweek raters is higher than the national average.  Wow, that $300 could have gone a long way to pamper her, I don't get it.

John,

I must admit that was almost funny... only you could twist my words in your head enough to somehow think that a 10 minute pit stop with a quick look-around, turned into me actually playing LA Trump...

Sorry, when you were disparaging the course I thought you had taken the time to actually play it.  My mistake.  Now, you did play Black Rock I hope.

Once again John...the words in the mouth thing.  I only disparaged the waterfalls, which were readily visible on the 1st hole from the access road.  But after taking a look around it is safe to say I would have little interest in playing the course....maybe in one of those beer imbing, cart golf scramble events it could be fun.

P.S.  I did actually play Black Rock in Idaho.

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,

Wow, you are exposing my simple mind.  I thought you went in and told them you were a rater and asked for a cart to take your wife for a look see.  Now I get the impression that you just drove on the access road and saw the waterfall.  Which is it?  Have you ever considered that fake waterfalls are designed to look best for people who play the course and not delivery drivers?  I think I may have even heard that you drive carts under the waterfall.  Did you get to experience this?

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Wow, you are exposing my simple mind.  I thought you went in and told them you were a rater and asked for a cart to take your wife for a look see.  Now I get the impression that you just drove on the access road and saw the waterfall.  Which is it?  Have you ever considered that fake waterfalls are designed to look best for people who play the course and not delivery drivers?  I think I may have even heard that you drive carts under the waterfall.  Did you get to experience this?

Lol...you must be really bored this morning John...being a simple mind and all! 

But if you must know, we saw it from the access road and while standing near the 1st tee.  2 different looks at it...enough to form a quick opinion.

And yes I've driven a cart under a waterfall too before...been there, done that. 

[Garland Bayley]

... I thought you went in and told them you were a rater and asked for a cart to take your wife for a look see. ...

Kalen a rater? ? ? Even Kalen is astute enough to know he can't get away with that claim.

[Kalen Braley]

... I thought you went in and told them you were a rater and asked for a cart to take your wife for a look see. ...

Kalen a rater? ? ? Even Kalen is astute enough to know he can't get away with that claim.

Garland,

Its funny stuff letting John jump to conclusions... I just figure I'd let J/K rant away about that forever as he sure seems to enjoy rater bashing!!  

[John Kavanaugh]

Looks like I owe Brad Klein an apology.  I thought he made both you and Garland raters.

[John Kavanaugh]

Since I know Garland and Kalen will be reading this I will post it here.  www.gilt.com is having the biggest sale of J. Lindeberg apparel I have ever seen.  Try as I might, the stuff just doesn't fit me.  This is not a good sign for upscale golf.  Good luck buddies!!!

[Garland Bayley]

Sorry,

I buy exclusively from Loudmouth golf.