The Underappreciated Post-Modern Appreciation Thread

[Jim Colton]

There are a number of post-modern courses that are ranked by the publications yet were 20th or below in the Doak love-fest otherwise known as the Top Ten post-modern ballot. Heck, Canyata and Black Rock didn't even make the list of nominees. Since one of Tom's goals for that post-modern ballot (other than massaging his massive ego) was to highlight underappreciated recent gems, let's dedicate this thread to highlighting the architectural merits of the courses listed below. Feel free to share pictures, thoughts (stick to the positives), etc.

Golf Digest (US Only)
2. Alotian Club (20th in post-modern poll)
4. Whistling Straits (22nd)
7. Victoria National (25th)
8. Canyata (Not on ballot)
9. Black Rock (Not on ballot)
[Include Gozzer Ranch (21st) because it would be ahead of Black Rock in the GD rankings if it had enough votes]

Golf Mag (2009 World)
5. Whistling Straits
7. Nine Bridges (on ballot, but didn't get any votes)
[Include Diamante (35th) since Greg T's seems to have inside info that it's cracking the new world list]

Golfweek (U.S)
4. Whistling Straits
10. Kinloch (32nd)


I've only played Whistling Straits from the list, but I can say that WS has a very strong set of dramatic par 3's.

[John Kavanaugh]

I thought Victoria National came out fantastic in your survey of possible top 10 courses built since 1995.  Do you have any idea how many people thought it should be part of the top 10 for it to end up so high.  I was very impressed with its showing.

[Ronald Montesano]

I've played Whistling and Kinloch and both blew my doors off. Kinloch was what I imagined Augusta NGC to be, yet it had some wild touches if you looked for them. The course will be on display in a few months at the USGA Senior Am.

I cannot imagine a better pair of unmatched bookends than Ballyhack and Kinloch. 160 miles apart as the crow flies, yet remind me of the separated at birth concept in life. Both courses would make my list of top 10 since 1995.

[Mike Nuzzo]

There is not room in the top 10 for any of those courses.

Kinloch is a very nice golf course designed by an even nicer guy.
I liked it a lot.
I had a bunch of courses that I liked graded similarly...
Beechtree, Rawls, Pine Dunes, Whispering Pines, Carlton Woods, Sand Ridge, Mirabel, Half Moon Bay, Paa Ko Ridge, Shadow Hawk, The Wilderness (Brauer), The Tribute, Old American...
But that same group also has some stinkers too... Silvertip, Dye Fore, Houston National and Aerie...

[Mark Saltzman]

I for one really liked Victoria National the one day I had the opportunity to play it.  All of the P3s make you go wow when you first stand on the tee (especially 7(?) and 16).  The final strectch of 15-18 is exceptional in either a stroke or matchplay setting.  You better hope you've found you're game by the time you stand on the 15th tee.  It has been a few years since I played the golf course and I only got to play it once, but it is a day I look back on fondly and I hope I am able to return to VN at some point in the future.  Easily my favorite Fazio.

[Sam Morrow]

There is not room in the top 10 for any of those courses.

Kinloch is a very nice golf course designed by an even nicer guy.
I liked it a lot.
I had a bunch of courses that I liked graded similarly...
Beechtree, Rawls, Pine Dunes, Whispering Pines, Carlton Woods, Sand Ridge, Mirabel, Half Moon Bay, Paa Ko Ridge, Shadow Hawk, The Wilderness (Brauer), The Tribute, Old American...
But that same group also has some stinkers too... Silvertip, Dye Fore, Houston National and Aerie...

I hate Houston National and I live about a mile away.

[JC Jones]

Jim,

I did laugh out loud at your original post.  Good stuff.

[Kevin Pallier]

Jim

I was surprised to see one of Tom's courses come out as low as it did - St. Andrews Beach ? I'd put it ahead of Sebonack as a fellow Doak design.

Again - I felt that the list was too US centric. Kennedy Bay (WA) and National Moonah (Vic) are every bit as good as many on thaat list. Given that many here have not heard of Ellerston is no surprise to me.

[Jim Franklin]

Victoria National is terrific. Way underappreciated by Golfweek and Golf Mag. Easily Fazio's best IMO. It is Top 10 modern for me and Top 20 overall.

[Andy Troeger]

Whistling Straits is the interesting one as its rated highly on all the other lists. I'll agree with Jim that the par threes are excellent and very dramatic. Even though they are all on the water, the green shapes and sizes add good variety to the shot requirements. I also think that the much maligned par five fifth isn't nearly as bad as its often made out to be. It doesn't fit especially well, but as a strategic par five I think it has some merit. Maybe its just that it was my only birdie on the day...

As mentioned Victoria National is one of Fazio's best. Its also a really solid club that would seem to appeal to this group--I didn't do a clubhouse tour or anything but its not high frills compared some of the other post-modern places. The course itself seems to be known for its difficulty which I don't think is that accurate. The first 13 holes have a great mix of short fours, a couple good fives, and tough threes. Its the final five holes where the course separates the players from the rest of us--I went from +4 after 13 holes to an 84 despite a par on the 16th. The 14th-16th compares well with any three hole stretch that includes a par 3, 4, and 5 consecutively that I've seen off hand, except 6-8 at Pebble. 13-15 at Pine Valley perhaps too.

Gozzer Ranch is my favorite Fazio and admittedly a bit more spectacular than VN. The argument certainly could be made that they are equals in terms of the architecture, but the scenery in northern Idaho is hard to beat. Gozzer is a good balance of challenge and playability, although I played so poorly that it was harder to tell than it should have been. Just realized that I need to get moving to get to work on time--will add more later.

[ed_getka]

[quote author=Kevin Pallier link=topic=49054.msg1108590#msg1108590 date=1311767271

Again - I felt that the list was too US centric. Kennedy Bay (WA) and National Moonah (Vic) are every bit as good as many on thaat list. Given that many here have not heard of Ellerston is no surprise to me.
[/quote]

Kevin,
    National Moonah was the surprise of my Australia trip a few years back. I didn't expect a lot, but some of you locals convinced me to check it out and I'm glad I did. It is certainly a modern course worthy of being part of the discussion. Who is Norman's design partner that was the principal on-site guy for National Moonah?

[Greg Tallman]

There are a number of post-modern courses that are ranked by the publications yet were 20th or below in the Doak love-fest otherwise known as the Top Ten post-modern ballot. Heck, Canyata and Black Rock didn't even make the list of nominees. Since one of Tom's goals for that post-modern ballot (other than massaging his massive ego) was to highlight underappreciated recent gems, let's dedicate this thread to highlighting the architectural merits of the courses listed below. Feel free to share pictures, thoughts (stick to the positives), etc.

Golf Digest (US Only)
2. Alotian Club (20th in post-modern poll)
4. Whistling Straits (22nd)
7. Victoria National (25th)
8. Canyata (Not on ballot)
9. Black Rock (Not on ballot)
[Include Gozzer Ranch (21st) because it would be ahead of Black Rock in the GD rankings if it had enough votes]

Golf Mag (2009 World)
5. Whistling Straits
7. Nine Bridges (on ballot, but didn't get any votes)
[Include Diamante (35th) since Greg T's seems to have inside info that it's cracking the new world list]

Golfweek (U.S)
4. Whistling Straits
10. Kinloch (32nd)


I've only played Whistling Straits from the list, but I can say that WS has a very strong set of dramatic par 3's.

Jim, I did not post any inside info here. The link to the Golf.com page that revealed the new courses on the list was posted by another person. Also, not clear what the numbering of the courses above signifies?

[Jim Colton]

Greg,

I didn't say you posted any inside info. The numbers correspond to the ranking of post-modern courses from the various publications (simply taking the top ten courses from each list opened since 1995). I put those full top 10's for comparison on the post-modern thread.

Jim

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

I didn't say you posted any inside info. The numbers correspond to the ranking of post-modern courses from the various publications (simply taking the top ten courses from each list opened since 1995). I put those full top 10's for comparison on the post-modern thread.

Jim

Gracias Jim and apologies but wanted to clarify that I was not releasing any info not available to the general public. Interesting results and just further demonstrates the differences between most on this site and the masses. 

[Kyle Henderson]

Kevin,
    National Moonah was the surprise of my Australia trip a few years back. I didn't expect a lot, but some of you locals convinced me to check it out and I'm glad I did. It is certainly a modern course worthy of being part of the discussion. Who is Norman's design partner that was the principal on-site guy for National Moonah?

Bob Harrison is the name you seek.

National - Moonah is a treat and certainly a much better use of an awesome plot for golf than its sibling the "Ocean."

I doubt it is among the 10 best courses built from 1995-2010, but certaintly it must be in the top 25-50.

[Tom_Doak]

Interesting results and just further demonstrates the differences between most on this site and the masses. 

Greg:

GOLF DIGEST panelists are as idiosyncratic a bunch as the treehouse here.  It would be a mistake to confuse their opinions with "the masses," but many do, just because they were the first magazine rating.

[Greg Tallman]

Interesting results and just further demonstrates the differences between most on this site and the masses. 

Greg:

GOLF DIGEST panelists are as idiosyncratic a bunch as the treehouse here.  It would be a mistake to confuse their opinions with "the masses," but many do, just because they were the first magazine rating.

I am not confusing Golf Digest panelists with the masses. I am listening to the thousands of golfers I have engaged and quizzed through the years. I think as a group they are closer to the "average golfer" in terms of taste than most of us on this site.

[Kalen Braley]

Greg,

The problem with that is that what the average US golfer wants is not in the best interest of keeping costs down.

Modern fast carts
Super quick greens that take extra maintainence and fertilizer
Lush green fairways....ditto on the maintainence and increased water inputs.
Giant white sand fairways that are in perfect condition.
Miles and miles of cart paths.
A fully stocked pro shop with over priced items that they rarely buy.
A big food operation that they rarely take advantage of.
Extra long tees which they have no business playing from.

Its no different from the average joe who loves thier McDonalds, Kraft Mac N' Cheese and drinking Budweiser....

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

The problem with that is that what the average US golfer wants is not in the best interest of keeping costs down.

Modern fast carts
Super quick greens that take extra maintainence and fertilizer
Lush green fairways....ditto on the maintainence and increased water inputs.
Giant white sand fairways that are in perfect condition.
Miles and miles of cart paths.
A fully stocked pro shop with over priced items that they rarely buy.
A big food operation that they rarely take advantage of.
Extra long tees which they have no business playing from.

Its no different from the average joe who loves thier McDonalds, Kraft Mac N' Cheese and drinking Budweiser....

You forgot watefalls... and NO I am not kidding in the least.

[Kalen Braley]

Greg,

The problem with that is that what the average US golfer wants is not in the best interest of keeping costs down.

Modern fast carts
Super quick greens that take extra maintainence and fertilizer
Lush green fairways....ditto on the maintainence and increased water inputs.
Giant white sand fairways that are in perfect condition.
Miles and miles of cart paths.
A fully stocked pro shop with over priced items that they rarely buy.
A big food operation that they rarely take advantage of.
Extra long tees which they have no business playing from.

Its no different from the average joe who loves thier McDonalds, Kraft Mac N' Cheese and drinking Budweiser....

You forgot watefalls... and NO I am not kidding in the least.

Agreed...I did indeef forget waterfalls!!

And lots of overgrown trees and plenty of flowerbeds

And big pretty ponds with fountains!

[Mark Saltzman]

Greg,

The problem with that is that what the average US golfer wants is not in the best interest of keeping costs down.

But who gives a s*** about keeping costs down, especially at a place like Alotian?

And what's wrong with waterfalls?  I, for one, enjoyed seeing them at Trump LA.  Did it make the golf course better? No.  Did it make the experience better? Yes.  Waterfalls - They're fun, they're pretty, they add a couple of bucks to the green fees.  Who cares.

[Kalen Braley]

Greg,

The problem with that is that what the average US golfer wants is not in the best interest of keeping costs down.

But who gives a s*** about keeping costs down, especially at a place like Alotian?

And what's wrong with waterfalls?  I, for one, enjoyed seeing them at Trump LA.  Did it make the golf course better? No.  Did it make the experience better? Yes.  Waterfalls - They're fun, they're pretty, they add a couple of bucks to the green fees.  Who cares.

Mark,

You serious about Trump LA?  Funny thing is, I asked my wife about them when we were down there a few years ago.  She said they were the most ridiculous thing she's ever seen on a golf course...and she doesn't even play.

[Mark Saltzman]

Greg,

The problem with that is that what the average US golfer wants is not in the best interest of keeping costs down.

But who gives a s*** about keeping costs down, especially at a place like Alotian?

And what's wrong with waterfalls?  I, for one, enjoyed seeing them at Trump LA.  Did it make the golf course better? No.  Did it make the experience better? Yes.  Waterfalls - They're fun, they're pretty, they add a couple of bucks to the green fees.  Who cares.

Mark,

You serious about Trump LA?  Funny thing is, I asked my wife about them when we were down there a few years ago.  She said they were the most ridiculous thing she's ever seen on a golf course...and she doesn't even play.

Kalen, as I sit here wearing my purple Trump golf shirt, I can assure that I am serious.

[Michael George]

To each their own re: waterfalls. I certainly am not the standard bearer to decide what is a great versus bad feature on a course.

However, the fact that every Trump course has an over the top waterfall does not help the cause.

Are there any great golf courses with artificial waterfalls.  Off the top of my head, I cannot think of one. 

I just think that waterfalls are the epitomy of artificial features on a golf course.   If the developer wants a large artificial waterfall, usually it is an indication that he does not understand what makes golf great and is doing it for the publicity (ie. Trump).

It is funny that Mike Keiser's original wish list given to Howard McKee for Bandon was a waterfall.  Thank God for Mr. McKee.

[Andy Troeger]

Getting back to my post from this morning...

Gozzer strikes a nice balance of creating challenge for the good golfer while having sufficient width for the average player. I seem to remember Kalen getting around in reasonable fashion. The first 5-6 holes are a nice start with the view of the lake on the 3rd and the driveable par four fourth being highlights. The course really gets going at the 7th which is set in a bit of a rock ampitheatre that's a cool unique setting. The 8th is more strategic as a par five with a couple carry center-line bunkers. The 9th turns hard right around a ravine for a tough finish to the opening nine.

10 is a great uphill par five with some risk/reward options for the bombers. Missing short/left is death. The 11th has a beautiful second shot to a great that looks like it falls into the abyss beyond. The 12th is a split-fairway par four that might be reachable for the longest of hitters, but is a strategic delight for most of the rest of us. The ending stretch is good, but that middle part of the course sets it apart.

I like Engh's Black Rock course down the road. Its a bit of a "love it or hate it" style as its proudly artificial and requires a cart. The mounding and shaping is similar to many of Engh's other courses, including some bowl greens and other wild shapes. Its the best course I can think of with a big fake waterfall, but it fits the theme. Again, you either love it or hate it. Black Rock features some heroic opportunites for the better players with high risk/high reward shots over water. It would be a great match-play course.

I'm not as high on Canyata as some of these others, but I will add that it has a few very high quality holes. I like the opening stretch a lot and the finish isn't bad. It just doesn't quite hold it together in the middle enough for its ranking IMO.