Ross green contouring?

[RSLivingston_III]

Is there any documentation on the development of contouring in his greens. Is there a timeline in this development? I see many 'good' courses that could be great if they had more highly contoured greens, like the ocourses that are considered his best. I am not sure it changed over time or was a 'championship' course vs. 'members' course thing.

Any thoughts?

[RSLivingston_III]

Just bringing it up for another run.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ralph,

In 1929 Donald Ross crafted incredibly contourned greens at Mountain Ridge.

The 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th 11th, 12th, 16th and 17th have very pronounced contours.

The 9th, 13th, 14th and 15th have contours and the 7th and 18th have considerable slope, while the 3rd is fairly flat and the 10th moderately sloped.

[RSLivingston_III]

Ralph,

In 1929 Donald Ross crafted incredibly contourned greens at Mountain Ridge.

The 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th 11th, 12th, 16th and 17th have very pronounced contours.

The 9th, 13th, 14th and 15th have contours and the 7th and 18th have considerable slope, while the 3rd is fairly flat and the 10th moderately sloped.

Thanks Pat.
Can I ask if you know of any from his first decade here in the US, that might have as pronounced of contouring?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ralph,

Brad Klein would be better qualified to answer that question

[RSLivingston_III]

Brad was actually my first contact, but I wanted to see if the treehouse had anything to add.

The more I think about this the more I realize I have not seen anything written about an intententional use of contouring to add challenges to the putting part of the game. I suspect it didn't come along until the development of the rubber ball and that balls propensity to roll. But then again, maybe it did start with the more sluggish gutty ball.
It also seems like it has to be tied into green mowing capabilities and developments in grasses.

[Neil Regan]

Ralph,

  Siwanoy was designed in 1913 - 1914 and opened in 1915. Almost all the greens all have significant contour, with maybe 5 of them having "dramatic" contour. As a set, their contours are not as pronounced as those at Mountain Ridge, but there are almost no straight or flat putts outside of a few feet. Tom Winton might have had a lot to do with that.

[Bradley Anderson]

I don't think it is possible to verify a genuine evolution  in his style. Many of the original greens have been tampered with and changed. And there may have been sublte differences in how they were built, depending on who was in charge of the projects.

I have one interesting story about his greens contouring: recently Clem Wolfrom (going on his 50th year as supt of Detroit Golf Club) told me that his father Clarence Wolfrom (a Detroit greenkeeping legend) was involved with shaping the final grade on the greens at Western Golf Club. And Donald Ross provided a lot personal oversight and training over the work that Clarence put in to the contouring of those greens. According to Clarence, Ross was right there watching, and especially careful to grade good surface drainage in the greens, with the water having more than one place to drain off the greens.

[JNC Lyon]

From the 15 or so Ross courses I have played, it is hard to identify a chronology of Ross green design.  I'm guessing his greens were more site specific than anything else.  Look at Oak Hill's East and West courses, where the greens are very different on two courses built at the same time (but on different pieces of property).  There are a couple of themes I see in Ross greens, regardless of the time period:

Ross looked for high points on which to build greens.  This is especially true on both courses at Oak Hill.

On downhill holes, Ross would keep greens at grade level in the front and then push them up at the back.  This made greens easy to construct, and it also makes them very difficult to read.  Examples:

1, 9, 10, 13, and 17 at CC of Rochester
5 and 10 at Monroe
14 at Oak Hill (West)
6, 10, and 15 at Schuylkill

On steep uphill holes, Ross would bench two-tiered greens into hillsides.  Examples:

16 at Schuylkill
3 at CC of Rochester
12 at Orchards
9 and 18 at Mountain Ridge
13 at Oak Hill (East)--since modified by RTJ

On flat pieces of land, Ross would use spines protruding from the back of the green to keep things interesting.  Examples:

12 at Jeffersonville
8 at CC of Rochester
1 at Thendara

Of course, then I see greens like 7 and 9 at Thendara, and all of my theories go out the window. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

JNC,

I don't think Ross's greens were site specific in terms of contour.

His work at Mountain Ridge in 1929 is definitely NOT site specific on many greens.

#'s 1*, 2, 4*, 5, 6*, 8*, 11*, 12*, 13, 15, 16 and 17 are pretty unique, with the asteriked greens really contoured, and MOST of the greens are built up on manufactured foot pads, especially toward the back of the green.

[JNC Lyon]

I think Ross greens varied from site to site, and he was usually pretty good at either building the greens according to what the land gave him or, if the land was bland, building something wild.  Some of the wildest greens at Mountain Ridge (I'm thinking 1, 2, 4, 11, and 12) are on the flatter portions of the property.  This is true of 7 and 9 at Thendara, which are maybe the two wildest greens I have ever seen from him.  Both are set on dead flat land.

[Sean_A]

Is it possible to work a timeline with courses which we know haven't had their greens altered very much?  Also, in my experience, Ross greens tended to be watered down (evil green speeds rearing its ugly head again) rather than trumped up. 

Ciao

[Anthony Fowler]

Ralph, many of Ross' New England courses have some exciting contours.  Essex, Wannamoisett, Whitinsville, and the Orchards all have some dramatic greens (and Essex was pretty early in Ross' career).  A lot of these greens are dramatically pitched back-to-front, but there is quite a bit of internal movement as well (especially given their small size in some cases).  Of those four courses, I think Whitinsville has the most exciting greens, and you don't have to go past the first hole to see some dramatic movement.  This is probably not the same degree of internal contour that you'll see from MacKenzie, Maxwell, Doak, or Coore, but given the size of the greens and the nature of the courses, there is plenty of interest on the greens.

[PCCraig]

I think Ross' greens varied greatly from course to course probably because he was most likely not the one actually building them, but his associates.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean Arble,

Mountain Ridge, 1929,doesn't have watered down versions, they're virtually intact

[michael damico]

On steep uphill holes, Ross would bench two-tiered greens into hillsides.  Examples:

13 at Oak Hill (East)--since modified by RTJ

13 is a punchbowl-like green that is extremely deceiving to putt as it looks nearly flat, but really everything breaks to the middle of the green and drains out the front approach.

14 is the short par 4 with the uphill, blind, two-tiered green, that is built almost on the top of the ridge (as 15's new tees are situated on the top by Fazio)

the now 9 (West) green is a double tiered green nestled into the hillside about 3/4 the way up.

or wait... the now 6 (West) is the camelback hole with the three-tiered green situated about 5/6 the way up the ridge.

and...the now 15 (West) which is a small punchbowl dug out of the top of yet another ridge on the property.

ooooh...and my favorite, the now 7 (West) which is nestled into the hillside with little internal contouring.

Fazio also moved 18's green closer to the edge of the ridge to make it sit as a plateau about 5/6 the way up the clubhouse ridge instead of the original green having a run up approach to the green situated on top of the hillside.

and how can anyone forget 2 and 9 greens on the East? Situated on top of their respective ridgelines, probably better examples of what you were speaking of, at least in my mind.

[JNC Lyon]

Michael,

14 is probably the best example on the East Course--what a great short par four!  It might be my favorite on the East Course.

9 West is a cool green, but it is the only green on the West Course that is not a Ross original.  Ross's green was situated at the top of the hill, pretty much where the snack bar is now.  7 is ultimately benched green on the West Course, as is 1, which follows the two-tiered theme, but flipped on its side.  8 is another one.  It is three tiers now, but my father remembers playing it as a kid when the green only had two tiers (the back tier wasn't there).  That's my theory on why the hole plays the yardage even though it is well downhill--the yardage plate is to the center of the original green configuration.

Imagine the 15th green on the West Course if they shaved down the back banks to fairway height?  I love that hole, but it always kills me to play it because I know how good it could be.

In terms of the Fazio changes, he redid four greens.  On the East Course, Ross built greens on high points, well back of the lowest points on the hole.  This way, golfers could bounce shots in, and the greens would drain well.  Fazio took four greens at high points (5, 6, 15, and 18) and moved them to low points, close to water hazards (5, 6 and 15) or a dip (18).  Of course, 5, 6, and 15 washed out constantly in the early years, and the 15th green is constantly falling into the pond.  None of these greens are playable for anyone except the low-handicapper.

Michael, how long did you work at Oak Hill?  I'm guessing you worked for Jeff Corcoran--he's actually my across-the-street neighbor here in Rochester!

[michael damico]

volunteered for the 2003 PGA and 2008 Senior PGA. Worked under Jeff his first 3 years there and then for a Fall after graduating grad school; great guy.

Last I heard, Fazio will be coming in and reworking ALL of the greens he built (which you mentioned) for the 2013 PGA.

I also have drawings of what other changes they will be doing in order to make a more permanent 'professional/tournament' capable driving range which will result in the destruction of the original closing holes on the West (now 7, 8 and 9). Surely would be a shame to lose those holes.

I did not know about 9W green, nor have really noticed the change from the original drawings, but always figured there was some toying with that green when I was cutting cups and could only find 3 pinnable locations. Put it on the back saddled ridge one Sunday after a loooong Saturday night; learned my lesson later that day.

[Rick Shefchik]

Northland Country Club (1927, begun in 1924 or so) has a set of intact Ross greens. Not much interior contour, except for the two-tiered 3rd green and a bit of a swale in the middle of the large 14th green, but plenty of very steep back-to-front canting, mostly derived from the sloped nature of the property.

The 18th green at Interlachen (1921) is famously contoured with a backstop, a middle section that's pinable, and a false front.

[RSLivingston_III]

Thanks guys, some good information added to the thread.
Had hoped for an easy answer but looks like a month in the archives at Pinehurst is required to answer this. Glad Ross drew the greens for many of his courses.
Now the question (for me) becomes would this be a worthwhile endevour or just meaningless minutia that really adds nothing to the history of the game?
I am now leaning towards the later.

[Mark McKeever]

Inserting shameless plug to come see the wild Ross greens and Schylkill...PM me.
Mark