[Matt Schulte]

I realize that Pete and Herb wanted to replicate links playing conditions by using fescue grasses in the fairways at Whistling Straits.  However, in that climate fescue cannot be cut very short.  My experience was the loss of "fast and firm" rolls that are so much a part of true links golf.  Additionally, the greens seemed very receptive.  As such, the player has the option of flying the ball to the pin more.  In my opinion the whole experience would be much more fun had the course conditions encouraged more ground game.

[Paul Richards]

matts:

I have played Whistling Straits on multiple occasions.

Each and every time, it played hard and fast.

Maybe you just visited at a bad time?

[Tom Doak]

Matt,

I haven't seen Whistling Straits since the fall before it opened, but Tom Mead in my office did help them with the grassing of the course when they decided they wanted to go with fescue.

A lot of the people who have tried fescue fairways in America are afraid to cut it short, because the conventional wisdom is that it will go away.  Yet on British links it often appears tight as linoleum.

If they're still mowing at 3/4 of an inch, that negates one of the great advantages of fescue -- being able to putt the ball from 10-20 yards off the green.  An approach shot may bounce home because of the firmness of the turf, but real links conditions mean the ball should ROLL.

At Pacific Dunes we planted Colonial bentgrass with the fescue, and since they aren't worried about the bentgrass failing, they're not afraid to mow it short.  There's still a lot of fescue there, so I'm not sure it would go away at Whistling Straits if they mowed it shorter.

Tight fescue is the best playing surface in the world.  You just can't ever have a pure stand of it like Americans want.

[John_McMillan]

Tom -

High Pointe was a fescue design in very similar climate to Whistling Straits (though they've redone the greens with bent).  What were the design issues you faced in putting fescue in there?  Were there concerns that it could not be closely mown?  Given the fairly easy summers of Northern Michigan (and of Wisconsin), I can't imagine them being that stressful on shortly cut grass.  Does the conventional wisdom only apply to fescue grown further south in the US?

[RJ_Daley]

I wish someone with great turf knowlege would answer this question authoritatively.   My super friends in Nebraska tell me that the fescue issue is mostly about the relative humidity whereas SH is drier and colder than WH in micro climate.   Thus, SH fairways are fescues and WH fairways are planted in blues with only the wide surrounds seeded in fescue.  Disease in the heat and humidity of the Platte River Basin is tough on the fescues.  

WHistling Straits is much cooler in degree days, yet can have brief periods of 88-90s heat.  But, nights and days are generally cooler right next to the lake, and humidity is relatively high.  So, is the issue that even though WS is cooler than Nebraska, it isn't as cool as the north sea courses?  Is that why they can manage the fescues at shorter cutting heights in Scotland?  Fescue is not as agressive to respond to injury from divots either, I don't believe.  How about a short course on this issue from a turf head?

[Bob (Guest)]

This is not a short course on fine fescue but I do want to clarify a few things.  First, the colonial bent that Tom Doak speaks of is not a creeping bent.  In most places in Ireland and Scotland it serves as more of a nurse grass and the fescues then dominate (and there is always a little poa annua sooner or later -what they call in the British Isles meadowgrass).  The presence of the bent helps the turf take the wear as well.  A typical mix would be 80% fine fescue and 20% non-creeping bent (such as Colonial, but there are others such as Lance).

All the experiences I have had with fine fescues in the British Isles have been a success.  However, at good seaside links course they promote very strong root growth to make it through times of increased wear of drought.  Let's not forget that most of the Seaside Links course in the British Isles have been around for a 100 years+.  This is certainly advantageous in developing good stands of fine fescue with very strong roots.  Perhaps they do not have the strong rooting to make it through times of wear at Whistling Straits??

I think some of the biggest issues with Whistling Straits are the high temperatures in the summer and the growing medium.  The summer temps. can be 75-85 any day of the week all summer.  I have never seen an 85 degree day on the sea in lBritish Isles links golf.  The growing medium at Whistling Straits is modified as well.  It has been capped with sand and topsoil.  This may affect the sand/soil enough to modify the performance of the fine fescue.

It may also have to do with the varieties of the fine fescue.  Are they the creeping fine fescues? (chewings, slender creeping red, etc.)  If not they may not lay down as well.  The great thing about fine fescues in links courses is that they are mown at about 1/2" and they lay down with a little wear like they are mown at 1/8" and play very fast.

Having said that - everytime I've played Whistling Straits (Straits Course) it has played fast.

One thing I DID like is that the slightly longer fairway grass  resulted in a "flyer" lie almost all the time which often encouraged you to bounce the ball onto the green.  

I would agree that the greens are quite receptive and if you do get a good lie or are hitting to a par 3 they will hold very well and you can "throw it at the pin".  Again, the greens are the new bentgrass variety (A or G series).  This does not exist on British Isles links courses.

Do they get far more play than your typical seaside links and the turf suffers accordingly - I would say yes.  Whistling Straits sells out tee times for months in advance and has players from sunup to sundown.  But, then again St. Andrews does too (although I think they are an exception).

It's tough to say unless you're the superintendent at Whistling Straits.  It's very easy to sit back and criticize but few of us know the details of the circumstances they have to deal with.  Matts - you would certainly be complaining alot more if the turf was shaved down and was dead (not just brown) on your next visit.

[BCrosby]

Bob -

Great post.  I am a layman and know little about turf issues.  But always happy to learn.

Question:  I live in Atlanta and don't recall seeing creeping fescue in this part of the country.  Is it a variety that does not survive our hot summers?

Bob

[Michael_Stachowicz]

The only thing I can add is that fescue does not like cart traffic.  Fescue is extremely sensitive to wear in high traffic areas.  Mixing with colonials would mean that the colonials would persist in the wear areas after the fescue is long gone.

As stated earlier, fescue has almost no lateral growth to recover from divots.  So a fairway divot repair program is a must.

I'm afraid fescue sounds like a great idea, but the golfing masses would percieve it as substandard, no matter how good the playing surface is.  It doesn't have the candy green most golfers look for in a top golf course, which is unfortunate.

[RJ_Daley]

Thank you for you input and information Bob.  Indeed, the soil structure of the sand and slightly clayey cap placed over the hardpad undergrade at Whistling is a big factor.  I think the fairways tend to be more firm by virtue of the soil structure countering the slightly higher cut of their fescue/rye blend fairways.  I imagine compaction is minimized with walking only policy and the only vehicles on the fairways are the mowers themselves.  

Wild Horse's blue fairways are cut at 5/8, I think.  They are as fast if not faster than Whistling because the soil structure is very high content, and favorable particle size sand.  The rhizome creeping nature of blue and response to fert/K helps it to recover from divot injury fast.  The mixed bunch/rhizome growth nature of fescues are tougher to recover fast.  Sand Hills has less rounds per year by far than either WS or WH, so that is a big factor too. Plus, the sand blowing out there, practically top dresses itself and keeps down thatch or puffiness, also aiding in fast conditions, I think.

[Tom Doak]

"The masses would perceive it as substandard."

That depends on where you are!  Can anyone here recall anyone coming back from Sand Hills or Bandon Dunes and complaining about the "substandard" turf?  [I've only heard it once or twice, and it was from someone who was emphatic before they saw the course about fescue being the wrong choice.]

I think the fescue works better at Sand Hills and Bandon Dunes because they're isolated, and there's nothing else to compare them to.  On the other hand, when High Pointe was practically across the street from The Bear, or Spanish Bay from Pebble, or Whistling Straits from Blackwolf Run, and when the green fees are high, the paying customer wants to know why they didn't use the "better" turf next door.

Fescue will work in heat [I've seen the Sand Hills when it's 100] or humidity [not many dry days in the U.K.], but not heat AND humidity.  It's also not worth a crap unless the soil is truly sandy, and I'm not sure the soils at Whistling Straits were suitable.  But, I still think they should mow it tighter and see.  If it doesn't hold out, then overseed it with bent like everyone else wants them to.

RJ:  One of the most brilliant decisions they made at Wild Horse was how to grass the place.  They used the bluegrass fairway mix you discussed to address divot-healing concerns, but switched to fescue 30-40 yards in front of the greens, so you can play all the links shots around the greens which I talked about.

[Travis_Hood]

If I'm not mistaken, the fairways and greens at the Warren Course at Notre Dame were supposed to be Fescue.   C and C had the same ideas, but the turf couldn't withstand the traffic.  

[Anthony_Nysse]

The turf at Warren Course was originally Fescue, but the powers that be had difficulty establishing it, so bent was used.

[Matt Schulte]

It will be very interesting to see what happens between now and 2004 for the PGA Championship.  It is impossible to precisely control distances off fairways of that length.  I can only image the players responses if they left them that length.  

I agree, unfortunately, the (American) golfing public appreciates the  color of the turf more than they do how it actually plays, which truly is a shame.  

While we are on the subject of Whistling Straits, can anyone explain to me how hole #5 fits in with the rest of the design?  For a moment I thought I was at Sawgrass!

[RJ_Daley]

My understanding, I could be wrong, is that in that area of the property there was some wetland issues and trading off between the county, the corps, and state resulting in mitigation and a restricted corridor in which they could work.  While #5 doesn't fit the rest of the design, it very well may play difficult from extreme back tees that I never heard anyone has used.  

Also, does anyone know if they have ruled out the idea of a composite course.  I feel a bit stupid for even asking because for starters, the turf is bent FWs on the Irish course and fescue FWs on the Straits.  I doubt if that has ever been done before for obvious good reason...

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