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Tom MacWood

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GCGC and Herbert Fowler
« on: July 24, 2011, 12:34:51 AM »
Herbert Fowler claimed there was a hole at GCGC based upon the famous 16th at Walton Heath (which was the 17th at the time). The 16th was long par-4 or shortish par-5 (460 yards). Does anyone know what hole Fowler is referring to?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 12:38:22 AM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: GCGC and Herbert Fowler
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2011, 12:56:57 AM »
Tom,

The long par 4's at GCGC are 6, 8, 10, 11 and 15

Only 3 par 5's, # 4, 13 & 17

What's the 17th at WH like ?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCGC and Herbert Fowler
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2011, 10:11:17 AM »
Here is a link to a picture and schematic of the hole. It is the current 16th hole:

http://www.waltonheath.com/TheCourses/CourseGuideOld.aspx#

The hole has been lengthened in modern times, back in the day it was 460 yards. I don't believe there were any trees on this hole back then either.

This is Wethered & Simspon's description, it made their eclectic Ideal Golf Course:

"A fine test of two shots. The tee shot must be long and kept well to the right, as the fairway area that receives the tee shot slopes sharply from right to left. A long second will find the plateau green, well guarded on the right by a bunker and by heather on the left. Visibility quite perfect."

This how Darwin described the hole in his 1910 book. In that book there is also an excellent painting of the hole by Rountree:

"It is the duty of every golf course is to have a good seventeenth hole, and the seventeenth at Walton certainly need not fear comparison even with the Alps and the Stationmaster's Garden. We must begin by hitting a long, straight drive between bunkers on the right and some particularly retentive heather on the left, but that is comparatively speaking, an easy matter. The second shot is the thing--a full shot right home on to a flat green that crowns the top of a sloping bank. To the right the face of the hill is excavated in a deep and terrible bunker, and ball ever so slightly sliced will run into that bunker as sure as fate. To the left there is heather extending almost to the edge of the green, and, in avoiding the right-hand bunker, we may very likely die an even more painful death in the heather."
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 10:14:47 AM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: GCGC and Herbert Fowler
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2011, 10:15:41 AM »
Tom,

# 4 seems to fit the description

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCGC and Herbert Fowler
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2011, 10:36:00 AM »
I think you are right. If I recall correctly it is one of the few greens not level with the ground. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: GCGC and Herbert Fowler
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2011, 12:15:53 PM »
I would have said #4 as well.  The green is only raised half as much as the Walton Heath hole, and you approach it more straight-on, instead of the green being offset to the left.  The only other hole which is anything like it is the long par-4 sixth, if a flipped version would count.  But I am surprised Fowler would think either of them was similar to the famous hole at Walton Heath.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCGC and Herbert Fowler
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2011, 01:29:04 PM »
I don't believe Travis ever played Walton Heath, so its doubtful it was the inspiration. Likewise I don't believe Fowler ever saw GCGC, or at least he hadn't in 1920 when he made the statement, so I suspect he got the information word of mouth. Probably from HH Barker, or Jerome Travers, or maybe CB Macdonald, and I suspect they said the hole was similar, and not a replica, as Fowler suggested.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: GCGC and Herbert Fowler
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2011, 02:13:44 PM »
I think you are right. If I recall correctly it is one of the few greens not level with the ground. 


And, you have to stay right off the tee to avoid a nasty bunker.

The green is elevated above the fronting fairway and flanked by a bunker short right.