[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat's not really upset about range finders, I think he just yearns for a return to the days when you had to use your eyes and play the game far more by feel. I  think it is a cool notion, but as others have said, those days are long gone.
Not really.
Some clubs prohibit their use in competitions.
Pine Valley being one of them

So Pat is wrong to expand his rant to say rangefinders cause slow play.

Not just range finders, but everything that aids in determining distance.

Just ask yourself, is play faster or slower since these aids were introduced.
Play is slower.
Estimating yardage isn't difficult and should be an important required skill.

Just think, as you're walking to your ball you're calculating the distance on your next shot, you reach your ball, reconfirming the distance, select your club, hit the ball and move on to hit your next shot.

Sadly, perhaps, I have built shooting the distance into my pre-shot routine, (shooting takes 5 seconds max) and I guarantee that I play as fast as
anyone on this board. And knowing the exact distance does not take the fun out of the game. If I'm 160 out I probably hit full 7, at 165 I'll go to
cut 6. If I'm in rough and the greens are rolling, I'll probably hit 8. I'm not saying I am good enough to play like the pros, but I think it is fun to work
out a proper strategy based upon knowing the exact distance, just like the pros.

Those claiming it only takes 5 seconds to determine distance are deluding yourselves.
I've observed the process and it's not a quick one.
I see golfers shooting 60 yard flip shots........ 3 times, just to make sure.
I see them, frustratingly, shooting over and over again because they can't sight the flagstick and keep getting background object's readings..

Ban all measuring devices, remove all distance markers and after one year play would speed up dramatically.
And, golfers would once again develop the skill to determine distance.

Today, one of my partners and I determined distance within 3 yards on almost every hole, and I don't have the best distance vision


Slow play is caused by slow players, period.


It's also caused by the pursuit of determining the exact distance. 

[David_Elvins]

I see golfers shooting 60 yard flip shots........ 3 times, just to make sure.

[/quote]
Pat,

I have seen plenty of golfers in the past pace out 60 yard shots.  Tell me that isn't slow? 


The best thing about this thread is that you have once again manged to get 3 pages (and counting) of largely superficial responses by posting some superficial comments about how things were better in the old days.  You would think we all would have learnt by now. 

[Mark Pearce]

Brad,

What the hell is a laser noise?  Sounds like sometjhing from a 1980s BBC Children's Sci-Fi program.

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,

The caddies at Pine Valley know every distance and give you this information when you get to your ball.
When you play there, do you tell your caddy NOT to give you the distance so you can eyeball it and play by feel?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bill

Caddies are there to carry ones clubs some think they are there for help, if you cannot read the Links then you are free to ask for help  - I do not ask as it would spoil my, note the use of the word 'MY' game. In the end you have to ask yourself am I a Golfer or a just a player.

I was and am a Golfer.

Melvyn

[archie_struthers]

 

Slow play is primarily caused by players who don't get it.   They are not prepared to play when it is their turn.   Only thru education and peer pressure have I seen this problem alleviated.    It also requires serious commitment from management /golf committees, who can't succumb complaints from slow players who don't want to conform.  

From the superintendents side, they need to set up the course correctly, particularly on weekends (busy days) so as to make pace of play faster. Middle/ easy pins and tees etc etc

It's a total commitment , and certainly easier at private clubs !

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's another sign to consider:


How would you like to be playing behind your group?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

The caddies at Pine Valley know every distance and give you this information when you get to your ball.
When you play there, do you tell your caddy NOT to give you the distance so you can eyeball it and play by feel?

Bill,

I may be different than most golfers in terms of information from a caddy.

I usually establish a relationship whereby caddies don't volunteer any information unless I request it.

I never had caddies read putts for me until my vision became impaired.
I always felt that reading my own putts, and learning from my mistakes, made me a much better reader of greens.
A lot of shots are "feel" shots, why would you ask a caddy about a feel shot.

At PV, like many courses, being below the hole is critical, and the greens are fairly large, so there's plenty of margin.

I find it interesting that some are attacking my position, I suspect that's being done to justify their reliance on measuring aids, or to defend their inability to judge distance.

Like kids who can't do math in their heads because they've come to rely on calculators, golfers can no longer judge distance because they've become reliant on measuring devices.  Golfers no longer use their eye to judge distance, panic and delay play when the distance isn't provided to them.

You're all inferior golfers who lack a specific skill set 

[John Kavanaugh]

[

I find it interesting that some are attacking my position, I suspect that's being done to justify their reliance on measuring aids, or to defend their inability to judge distance.

That is true in my case.  I have not purchased a laser device but have found myself addicted to the information my playing partners provide.  Sadly, when competing, my desire to beat my opponent within the boundaries of the rules trumps the purity of my golfing heart.  It does, without question, like all the rules, slow down the game.

[Mark Pearce]

I will admit that I recently acquired a range finder.  Last Friday, playing in a corporate day with a client in his late 40s and another contact of a similar age, I used it.  By about the 3rd or 4th, we were playing a game where the client would guess the yardage before I measured it.  He was, on every occasion, within 10 yards and nearly always within 5.

We set off first, by the way and, as we stood on the 18th tee the group immediately behind was putting on 14.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is the need for precise distance a function/factor of medal play versus match play ?

[Mark Pearce]

Is the need for precise distance a function/factor of medal play versus match play ?

I can't see why it would be.  Do you have a reason to think it might be?

[John Kavanaugh]

Is the need for precise distance a function/factor of medal play versus match play ?

No. How can you beat an opponent at medal play without beating him on at least one hole in match play unless he is DQ'ed for using an illegal distance aid?

[Joe Bausch]

I was playing Rock Manor recently and the carts had GPS.  One time i poke my head under the cover to get a yardage off the monitor, hit the little arrow to bring up the next screen for the yardage, and a pop-up ad for some business comes up!  Geez, just like surfing the web.

[Jud_T]

Is the need for precise distance a function/factor of medal play versus match play ?

To some degree yes, and in particular the tour players playing almost exclusively at medal play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I see golfers shooting 60 yard flip shots........ 3 times, just to make sure.

Pat,

I have seen plenty of golfers in the past pace out 60 yard shots.  Tell me that isn't slow? 


The best thing about this thread is that you have once again manged to get 3 pages (and counting) of largely superficial responses by posting some superficial comments about how things were better in the old days.  You would think we all would have learnt by now. 
David,

The truth is that the pace of play is worse now than it was "in the old days"

And, it's worse despite all of the letters and signs advising golfers to play faster, it's worse despite all the distance devices which are claimed to save time.

There is NO reason that a foursome should play in more than 3 hours on a golf course without an unusual configuration/situations.

I have two very dear friends, both have been members of their respective clubs for over 20 years.
Yet, on every shot they ask the caddy for yardage, which direction the wind is blowing (can you imagine that, they need the caddy to tell them or confirm to them, which way the wind is blowing, as if it changes every 15 seconds,  The ask which way the putt breaks, whether it's uphill or downhill or flat, and on and on and on.  And, they're rarely ready to play when it's their turn.

Why do golfers wait until it's their turn before they begin analyzing their next shot ?

And, when you tell them to speed up, they either tell you they're not slow, or that they need to take their time because each shot is important.
One of them, refuses to pick up.  He can be on his way to a 12, but, he's going to finish, even though, other members of his group have already finished the hole and their score will be used in the match he's involved in.

Another fellow, also a friend, shoots every distance there is, even if he's standing on a marked sprinkler head, on a course he's been playing for 25 years.

The "culture" of golf has been corrupted by the "me" generation.

Fast play is the exception, not the rule, and it should be the other way around.

Those requiring a constant data feed are the "Prima Donna's" of golf. and as someone stated, their punishment should be playing behind themselves.

[/quote]

[David_Elvins]

There is NO reason that a foursome should play in more than 3 hours on a golf course without an unusual configuration/situations.

I will give you a good reason.  I prefer to play a foursome round in 3.5-4 hours rather than 3 hours.  So do a lot of peole I play with. 

[Ronald Montesano]

You can get a constant data feed and play quickly...data does not influence number of waggles, prompt club selection (if you truly know and trust your numbers), hip shimmies, head cocks and other idiosyncracies that slow golfers to a crawl. Golfers who shoot high numbers can play quickly, while scratch and better golfers can be slow as constipation.

So many have touched on it, yet I will reiterate...when "amateurs" attempt to do things that "professionals" do, the former are bound to screw up. When the "professionals" do it poorly (faster play) to begin with, the "amateurs" will compound the error, adding additional time and sequences to the process.

Finally, consider attitude. Many golfers feel that they have earned their time on the course and, by gum, if they want to take extra time on, say, every shot, tough tittles. They've paid and earned the slot.

How do you combat that, especially on a public course?

[Patrick_Mucci]

There is NO reason that a foursome should play in more than 3 hours on a golf course without an unusual configuration/situations.

I will give you a good reason.  I prefer to play a foursome round in 3.5-4 hours rather than 3 hours. 
So do a lot of peole I play with. 

David,

What you and others don't seem to understand is the following.

Once you set the pace at 3.5 to 4 hours, the course can never recover and achieve 3 hour rounds.

If you play in 4 hours, nice and comfortable for you, you wreck the day for every group behind you that wants to play in 3 or 3.25 or 3.5 hours.  That's selfish on your part.  There's no reason why a round should take you more than 3 or 3.5 hours.  If you play in 4 hours, you're doing something wrong.  Perhaps playing from the wrong tees or something else, but, you're definitely doing something wrong.

Yesterday, in 95 degree heat, we played in 3.25 hours and we didn't rush, we just played.

Ron,

I agree, there's a different dynamic at public courses, and, as I stated above, once a slow play round is in place, faster rounds can't be achieved.

I have a number of suggestions for improving the pace of play at public courses, but, many are dependent upon so many variables and circumstances.

For instance.
On the first groups out, and groups that follow them.
Charge a green fee, and refund a portion of it if the group completes play within an alloted time frame.

ie, if the green fee was $ 100 and the group plays in less than 3.5 hours, refund $ 25 per golfer.

That way, the other golfers in the group would enforce fast play, knowing that a member of their group was going to cost them money for their slow play. they would apply the Jockey's whip and try to get the round in in under 3.5.

In addition, the groups behind them would be encouraging ( ) them to play faster.

I have other suggestions, but, that's for another thread.

What I don't understand is why so many of you are resisting playing at a reasonable pace 3 to 3.5 hours at the most is NOT rushing.
Now, if you're a bunch of guys in your 80's I can understand that you have physical limitations that make 3 to 3.5 hours difficult.
But, if you're under 70, there's NO reason to take as long as you do.

[David_Elvins]

Pat,

Thanks for the lecture, but what you and others don't seem to understand is the following.

Once you set the pace at 3.0 to 3.25 hours, the course can never recover and achieve 2.5 hour rounds.

If you play in 3 hours, nice and comfortable for you, you wreck the day for every group behind you that wants to play in 2.25 or 2.5  or 2.75 hours.  That's selfish on your part.  There's no reason why a round should take you more than 2.5-2.75  hours.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

Not every culture perceives time in the same manner. Few higher minds if any envy those on the clock.

[Jud_T]

What if they timed guys on tour and the fastest guys got to be first out BOTH Thursday and Friday morning while the turtles would bring up the rear?  I bet you'd see some improvement in pace of play then...

Pat, I agree with most of what you're saying, but it's really simply the difference between public and private golf in the States we're talking about.  I think the private side is in pretty good shape in this regard, with the exception of medal play tournaments.  As for the public side, I see little hope for the weekend hurry up and wait set....

[JC Jones]

Patrick,

Not every culture perceives time in the same manner. Few higher minds if any envy those on the clock.

Pat cannot be reasoned with.  5 hours spent on the golf course is better than 5 hours spent doing much of anything else.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Pat,

I'm with you buddy!

Also, regarding caddy management, at my home course since I walk and carry all the time I find a caddy at a "big time" club can be disorienting.

I don't mind them shooting the yardages so much as when we get around the greens they tend to go overboard poking the flagstick to the point on the green where I am supposed to hit the ball, pace be damned.

Last week I was at Baltusrol and read the riot act to my caddy. No input unless asked for!, period!

A very pleasurable round ensued!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Not every culture perceives time in the same manner. Few higher minds if any envy those on the clock.

Pat cannot be reasoned with.  5 hours spent on the golf course is better than 5 hours spent doing much of anything else.

JC,

Depends on whether you have your clothes on or off.

5 hours on the golf course is no joy, it's a grind, unless it's spent playing 27 or 36 holes.

What you and the other cretins fail to understand is that today's young couples both work and have shared responsibilities, therefore time is precious, and the need to play quickly so that they can get home to help out with the children is critical.  Being gone for 7 hours isn't acceptable. (5 hour round plus half hour commute each way, plus warm-up prior to play and socializing after play)

A 3 hour round is acceptable.

At most clubs you'll now find young married golfers teeing offat 6:30-7:00-7:30 so that they can play their golf and get home to see their kids or engage in activities with their family.

A three hour round is critical to them being able to play golf.

A 5 hour round is a death sentence and ruins everybody's day.

Those who have played with me know I play quickly without rushing, and that my preferred pace is 3 hours.
That's not to say I can't enjoy myself in a 4 hour round, but, anything longer is intolerable.

If you take 5 hours to play, we won't be playing any time soon.
There is NO EXCUSE for taking that long.
At several clubs I'm familiar with, you'd be prohibited from teeing off prior to 2:00 pm, if you took 5 hours to play.

But, the selfish "me" generation thinks nothing of ruining a round for everyone else as long as they take their time and play at their 5 hour pace.

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