[Tim Martin]

It's not the user, it's not the equipment, it's the CULTURE that's develop;ed.

Just ask a guy who plumb bobs from 9 angles what he sees that he wouldn't have seen if he began figuring out his putt as he approached the green, marked, cleaned and looked at it from behind the ball PRIOR to it being his turn to play.

Is excruciating the proper term to describe watching the guy plumb bob from 9 angles on a 6 footer and then miss 6 inches low?

[J Sadowsky]

I have a free rangefinder app on my DROID, but I don't use it very often while playing - it's just faster to guesstimate from the nearest 200/150/100 yard marker or note a sprinkler as I walk up to my ball.

It is occasionally helpful, however.  For instance, if one "happened" to be playing their second shot from the wrong fairway, it probably doesn't matter what the nearest sprinkler head says.

[J Sadowsky]

It is all in the attitude - playing ready golf and walking at a sensible pace.

I know this is not totally typical as we all knew the course very well, but on Tuesday night I played foursomes (traditional version - 2 ball alternate shot) matchplay in a club competition and we finished in 2.15. Partners walked ahead whilst tee shots were hit and then played when they got to the balls. We all met on the green and putted where necessary. As it was matchplay we could conceed short puts.

2 hours 15? We were told at Muirfield when we played 36 that this was the expected pace for our foursomes game in the afternoon. After a big lunch. I can say it was a miserable experience keeping up with that pace. I love my 3 hour rounds and often go around quicker. But 2 hrs 15 isn't fun for me. That's just my personal view!

During my wedding I was able to twice get out first on a not-so-crowded resort course and do 2 hour rounds, but that was as a solo.  I have no idea how a foursome can do that, particularly on a links-type course (unless one immediately abandons all hope of looking for any ball that ends up in the rough and not immediately spotted by a forecaddy).

[David Whitmer]

Complaining about the change in culture, or longing for previous times, is a fruitless endeavor. The culture is what it is, and it will not change or go back. Perhaps professional golf is to blame. Amateurs who watch the pros consequently do what they do, whether it's plumb bob, buy a huge putter Jack used in 1986, twirl the club after a good shot, or spend time figuring out their distance and what club to use. If the pros spend forever getting ready to hit a shot, then why shouldn't I?

Yes, some guys like Rory McIlroy and Rickie Fowler are quick, but they are the minority and the pro culture will not change. Therefore, the culture for the rest of us won't change either. So, accepting the fact that the days and culture of 50 years ago are not coming back, do you want a guy walking around trying to find a marker, or do you want him to whip out his range finder and spend 10 seconds figuring out his yardage? Give me the second guy.

The Ford Model T is not coming back, Converse's Chuck Taylor gym shoes are not coming back, and the days of no yardage markers are not coming back. If you complain about their existance and argue for their removal, all you'll do is drive yourself nuts. Instead, let's try to figure out how to speed slow guys up given the current culture. If you can get rid of all range finders, yardage plates, and 150 markers, I'll be in your corner. But we all know that will never happen.

[J Sadowsky]

Ah, whoops.

Still, seems rather rushed.  You ever get to talk to your partner in those 2 hours?

[Steve Kline]

Guys,

I think you're all missing the big picture.  If you went to GB&I, instituted the US handicap system and changed the culture from match play to medal, I fear you'd see a significant lengthening in time per round.  It's simply silly for the average hack to be grinding over his 3-putt for a snowman so he can post a proper medal score for handicap and "know how well he played the course" every time out.

You think guys playing in their buddy money game are grinding over three foot putts? Heck, I generally see putts given as overly generous which is why Americans tend to have lower handicaps than Brits and generally can't play to them in when forced to putt everything out.

[Jim Tang]

I use a Skycaddie and it take maybe 5 seconds for me to get the yardage once I'm at my ball.

I get guys want to play quickily.  I do too.  But, it isn't all about pace of play.  I'm not sure I would want to play a round of golf in 3 hrs.  

I want to enjoy the round, enjoy my surrounds.  I want to think about the shot and how best to get the ball to the hole.  I HATE slow play.  However, pace of play isn't the only factor in a round of golf.

If I can get it done in 4 hours, I'm pretty happy.

I once looped for a guy from Chicago Golf who literally started fast walking after his ball once it had left the club face, while it was still in the air.  His follow through was him walking forward to the next shot.  I'm not sure I would enjoy that type of golf.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

I recently played at Sunnybrook GC, an old line club in the Philly 'burbs, again after about a 10 year or longer interval. When I played there before there were no yardage markers. There was no caddie available on that day so we relied on the scorecard that had distances from trees and bunkers. When I played there recently, there were yardage markers on sprinkler heads,my host had a laser and I had a Garmin G5 GPS device. Times change. Members change. Technology advances. Slow play is a function of many factors but it really shouldn't happen at  private clubs where slow play is frowned upon and warning letters happen. I'm sure you weren't playing your local muni on a weekend where they pack them in at 7 or 8 minute tee time intervals and the quality of most of the golfers aren't single digit handicappers.

See Biil Yates interview here in the Feature Interview section.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/interviewyates/

[Michael George]

Maybe I have read Golf in the Kingdom too many times, but I have resisted the GPS systems.  Just takes part of the joy of the game away for me.  Kind of like taking a cart v. walking.  You still play the same shots.  However, you miss so much about a golf course when you take a cart versus walking.  

Something special about walking a golf course, finding a yardage plate, determining the shot that you want to hit and executing.  All part of the experience.

Don't have a problem with others having GPS systems - as long as they don't try and shoot yardage for the entire group - that is quite annoying.  Nothing worse than a guy with a new GPS system.  I think those guys like shooting yardage than playing golf.

[Michael Ryan]

I walk my municipal golf course and carry my own bag.  I would love to say that I have amazing depth perception and can look at a flag and know that it's 135 yards away.  I don't have that ability.  My entire life I have had to find the nearest marker and pace off my number from the nearest 150, sprinkler head, etc. to figure out the distance to the middle of the green.  I then have to estimate where the flag is based hopefully on a color system that isn't always accurate.  I spent good money on a laser 3 years ago.  I now set my bag down, pull the laser, shoot once and get the exact number to the flag.  I can tell you that from the time I arrive at my ball, set my bag down and pull the trigger-I am 20 seconds faster with the laser than without.  I wish more people at my muni had GPS, lasers, etc.  It would speed up play as I'm constantly behind groups of golfers who are walking around looking for yardages and wasting time before they hit. 

[Will Lozier]

Patrick: Any decent player, with a quality caddie, would be able to make it round most courses in 3 hours.  Very few have the opportunity to do so.  I would think that given your argument, marking & cleaning your ball on the green should be disallowed as well, no?  Going back to the true roots and spirit of the game - play your ball as it lies?  Reintroduce the stymie?  Culture IS the problem.

I am really on your side of the argument.  Solo, I went round Swinley twice in 5 hours.  Even managed 36 at Highland Links in well under 7 - anyone who has walked Cape Breton can appreciate that as a brisk pace.  I really like the idea of an indiscreet 150 rock far off the fairway but, as a former caddie at Bandon, I can truly the appreciate the enjoyment (and true satisfaction) of eyeballing a distance and creating a shot for my player in his/her mind.  Or, when playing, doing it myself.  But...that is a different kind of game (the ONLY kind really!) that the VAST majority of American golfers (the real culprits here) never see where the same exact shot can come off many, many ways and have varying results due to wind, contour, firmness, etc. - and THAT is where the true joy of golf lies.  

In order for the culture to change, Professionals need to get on with it.

Justin: During your WEDDING!?  You are very clever!

[J Sadowsky]

Well, you know how cocktail hours can get, Will!

[Kalen Braley]

I'm baffled that we're 62 posts in and Melyvn has resisted the urge to jump in and give us the 5 paragraph lecture.  Good on ya Mel for showing some restraint. 

I would honestly like to put this problem on the individual players but I can't. I put this clearly on course marshalling for not demanding 4 hr rounds from thier patrons.  The things we know:

Lasers can be used quickly or slowly
GPS can be used quickly or slowly
Golfers can have quick or slow pre-shot routines
Golfers can take 1 practice swing or 5
Golfers can be Jim Furyk on every green or John Daly
Golfers can play ready golf or not.
Golfer can hit provisionals on questionable shots or spend 10 minutes looking for a ball that went OB.
Etc.
etc.

They are all just symptoms of the wider problem of slow play being acceptable.

[Jud_T]

The Ford Model T is not coming back, Converse's Chuck Taylor gym shoes are not coming back, and the days of no yardage markers are not coming back.

http://www.famousfootwear.com/Shopping/productdetails.aspx?catalog_name=web&pg=1007963&p=69924&CMP=OTC-Froogle&partnerid=Froogle&cpc=Froogle&campaign=Converse&group=Athletics&cpckw=Mens%20Chuck%20Taylor%20All%20Star%20Hi%20Black

[A.G._Crockett]

I'm baffled that we're 62 posts in and Melyvn has resisted the urge to jump in and give us the 5 paragraph lecture.  Good on ya Mel for showing some restraint. 

I would honestly like to put this problem on the individual players but I can't. I put this clearly on course marshalling for not demanding 4 hr rounds from thier patrons.  The things we know:

Lasers can be used quickly or slowly
GPS can be used quickly or slowly
Golfers can have quick or slow pre-shot routines
Golfers can take 1 practice swing or 5
Golfers can be Jim Furyk on every green or John Daly
Golfers can play ready golf or not.
Golfer can hit provisionals on questionable shots or spend 10 minutes looking for a ball that went OB.
Etc.
etc.

They are all just symptoms of the wider problem of slow play being acceptable.

Bingo!

I walk and play fast; if people stay out of my way, I can hoof it around in under 3 hours, and I'm an old man!  And I can do that whether I use my rangefinder or not.  Often, at my home course, I leave it in the car, but NOT because I want to play quickly.  I leave the rangefinder out because I know the golf course, and because I'm cutting weight in my bag, like I leave out a few extra golf balls and so forth.

At an unfamiliar course, I can play MORE quickly WITH the rangefinder; I make fewer mistakes, spend less time pacing/guessing, and hit fewer shots.

I absolutely HATE slow play; it is a curse on our game.  But the use of rangefinders is way, way down the list of reasons for it, and under certain circumstances can speed play if properly used.  It is unarguable.

(Disclaimer:  No one could have more respect for the opinions of Patrick Mucci than I when it comes to the welfare of golf.  When he says something like this, it is always worthy of consideration, and while I may disagree, I ALWAYS think about what he has said very carefully.)

[Garland Bayley]

...
What I do find somewhat amusing are the players who use their distance aids to tell me exactly how far I am for my shot.  It's a nice gesture but I'm thinking "Based on the previous shots you've seen me hit, what gives you the idea that I have any clue how far I'm going to hit this ball?"

I see them coming and try to get my shot off before they can get me a yardage. They get the clue real fast.

[Mark Pearce]

Brian,

Muirfield is rather longer than Huntercombe but has paths specifically for foursomes (each green has two paths leaving it, one to the next tee, another to the fairway/green on the next hole).  I think 2hr 15 mins is unrealistic.  I have, however, played in both foursomes and singles that have got round in 2hr 30 mins, each time with at least one septuagenarian in the group.  It's a bit of a rush playing singles but not too bad in a foursome.

[Garland Bayley]

...
You should also include the guy who discusses every putt with his caddy or partner in minuscule detail... but never makes anything. There is much more time wasted on greens than anywhere IMHO.
...

This gets back to the sign I suggest gets posted in every club house.

If you are not on tour, you are not good enough to play slow.

[Mark Pearce]

The problem with that sign, Garland, is that it encourages the belief that the better you are, the more "right" you have to play slow.  I know several low handicappers at my club who are dreadfully slow.  I'm sure they'd nod knowingly at that sign and think that being a 2 handicapper allowed them to be slower than me.

[Garland Bayley]

The problem with that sign, Garland, is that it encourages the belief that the better you are, the more "right" you have to play slow.  I know several low handicappers at my club who are dreadfully slow.  I'm sure they'd nod knowingly at that sign and think that being a 2 handicapper allowed them to be slower than me.

And which tour do they play on?

[Jud_T]

Garland,

The tour players are not good enough to play slow either.  They're just taking advantage of a pace of play policy that has no teeth and is not vigorously enforced...

[John Kavanaugh]

...
You should also include the guy who discusses every putt with his caddy or partner in minuscule detail... but never makes anything. There is much more time wasted on greens than anywhere IMHO.
...

This gets back to the sign I suggest gets posted in every club house.

If you are not on tour, you are not good enough to play slow.

What is wrong with beating the people against who you compete?  I'm rather proud of myself for winning a local Pro-am this Monday by shooting 69.  Why do you want to rob people like me from the joy of winning?  Do you know how rare it is for a 51 year old fat miserable prick like me to feel light on his feet?  Don't be so selfish and let a dog have his day.

[SL_Solow]

Cmon Barney; you're not so miserable.  Great round.

[John Kavanaugh]

Cmon Barney; you're not so miserable.  Great round.

Thanks, sometimes after a hard loss that is on top of what seems like an endless series of losses I often wonder why people complete.  It only takes one win to remember why. 

My experience with slow play centers around people who putt everything out against those who give many putts.  We have a penalty for three putts that results in entertaining but slow scenarios.  I never make a tee time without asking who is both in front and behind our group.  I respect people who don't compete and are just looking for some exercise while golfing a ball and we let them go first.  We can all get along without having to bifurcate the game into the pros and us.

[JMEvensky]

Garland,

The tour players are not good enough to play slow either.  They're just taking advantage of a pace of play policy that has no teeth and is not vigorously enforced...

While I agree that the PGA Tour is sometimes hard to watch due to slow play,they aren't out there just playing a game--it's their livelihood.

Many posters decry imitating the PGA Tour for equipment,course set up,venues,and everything else.Their pace of play is just another example of the difference in our respective definitions of golf.

You and me and most everyone else are out there playing a game--they aren't.

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