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JLahrman

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Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2011, 12:46:59 AM »
The "myth" probably pertains to "how" these things are used. If the golfer stands around and waits until it's his turn to hit and then hauls out his "aid" to determine distance, then yes, it isn't helping speed play. But that's another story.

This is our winner, ladies and gentlemen.  The root cause of slow play is people not being ready to hit when it is their turn.

There is nothing more aggravating to me than standing on a tee, watching four guys out in the fairway with a clear green in front of them, and not one of them is doing anything resembling preparing to hit their golf ball.

You can usually read your putt while another player is putting.

If your ball is on one side of the fairway and mine is on the other, I will start my preshot routine while your ball is in the air.  There are two other guys who can watch your shot.

Etc. etc. etc.

David_Elvins

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Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2011, 12:49:09 AM »
Pat,

When you used to play competition golf you used to play 5 hour+ rounds. 

When you played last week you played 9 holes in 1.5 hours? 

And you reckon the pace of play is getting slower?????
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2011, 01:04:18 AM »
One of ways we've found that these devices speed up overall play in a tournament is by fewer lost balls or hazzard rulings. For example, on dogleg holes with high grass bordering the fairway we save a lot of time when players are not searching for balls. Measuring devices have reduced these delays because players know what club will get them into trouble if they hit through the dogleg and they back off. Thus, fewer searches... which moves everything along. I will gladly give up a 10 or 15 laser measurement if it saves a five minute search in the weeds for some guy's ball. Big net gain there.

Same with hazzards. When players know exactly how far it is to reach or clear a hazzard fewer of them hit into the hazzard. It is just a fact... at least in our events. Fewer players in the hazzard means a faster round for all concerned.

But, this seems to be about one golfer's experience, in one group, with one slow player that got on his nerves. I agree, it can make for a frustrating day.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Sean_A

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Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2011, 03:33:37 AM »
I think Pat is comparing today's golfer with a time before there were any of the devices on hand to figure out yardage.  The yardage gun backers seem to be comparing guns to yardage books and markers.  I have only been in the company of players with a gun a few times.  Most slowed the game down - imo, but that may be a situation where a learning curve will improve matters.  I have been in the company of guys with books countless times and without exception they all slowed the game down.  Markers can be a problem too for those who don't pay attention as they walk.  I have come to the conclusion that Burnham has the best compromise; stones at 150 well off fairways whhich can give a guy some general idea of yardage from most anywhere.  They are not obvious or obtrusive and can easily be ignored.  In fact, most visitors/guests have to be told of their existence.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2011, 03:42:42 AM »
I think Pat is comparing today's golfer with a time before there were any of the devices on hand to figure out yardage.  The yardage gun backers seem to be comparing guns to yardage books and markers.  I have only been in the company of players with a gun a few times.  Most slowed the game down - imo, but that may be a situation where a learning curve will improve matters.  I have been in the company of guys with books countless times and without exception they all slowed the game down.  Markers can be a problem too for those who don't pay attention as they walk.  I have come to the conclusion that Burnham has the best compromise; stones at 150 well off fairways whhich can give a guy some general idea of yardage from most anywhere.  They are not obvious or obtrusive and can easily be ignored.  In fact, most visitors/guests have to be told of their existence.   

Ciao

Although I feel privileged to be firmly planted in the Pat Mucci and Melvyn Morrow camp over this, I have of late been softening my view to the extent that what Sean is advocating above is where I think the ideal lies... 150 yard markers at each side of the fairway with nothing else... General idea needed... Forget the pacing off...

I still believe though that the game would be better without any markers, certainly on the links courses of GB&I... It's a little different on water laden, soft parklands... But for those who didn't grow up eyeballing the distance, it's really a lot easier than you think after a little practice... Plus it adds some element of "feel" back in to the game, something we are all fans of...

Sean_A

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Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2011, 04:04:23 AM »
Ally

I too wish there were no yardage aids except on the tee or the card.  You do, however, raise a good point I hadn't thought of; modern courses with a preponderance of water and other hazards.  I am fortunate that I don't come across this style of golf often and it is therefore easily avoided, but some folks don't have that many options. 

BTW - Burnham has stones on only one side of the fairway - usually the side where it can be discretely placed.  At Pennard there are markers, but for years I didn't know they were measured to the front of the greens - that is what I mean by a general idea which still relies heavily on eye balling. 

I think its a shame golfers don't want to play a game of cat and mouse with a course and its designer.  I find it incredibly fun trying to figure shit out based on what we think we know of an archie and what we can see.  Thats how certain very cool elements stick in my memory.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Kline

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Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2011, 07:08:14 AM »

As for caddies... how many of them now use ranger finders to give you a distance? Of the last six caddies I have had, four of them used range finders. As a matter of fact, one forgot his range finder and asked to borrow mine!  ;D

 

At Pinehurst, the caddies had to buy laser guns from the club. When I took a caddy this spring I got one of the few remaining legendary black caddies. He has been caddying there since the 40s or 50s and he is old enough he only does single bags and the club lets him use a cart which he can drive anywhere. So, he is trying to use the gun all day to get the yardage and can never get it to work right. I gave it a try and it was a piece of cake. So on 18 he tries the gun for the umpteenth time and it keeps reading 32 even though it is close to 5 times that. Finally, he looks around for 3 seconds, looks at the flag, and says "You have 156." for fun one of the other caddies had wondered over. He pulls out his gun and says "You have 156."  ;D ;D ;D


I still like using my range finder. And there are many other things that are much bigger factors in terms of slow play. Not being ready when it is your turn. Practice swings. And, worst of all, thank you Nicklaus,not hitting the shot until you are completely ready. If we are going to ban anything it should be any and all practice swings.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2011, 07:17:40 AM »
Pat,

You are certainly right on this.  However, I fear the horse left the barn around the time of Secretariat.   We need clubs with no markers, no scorecards, no slope and rating and no gps or cell phones allowed (I think there are a couple).  And it wouldn't hurt if the PGA tour's pace of play rules actually had some teeth and were vigorously enforced....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2011, 07:18:57 AM »
Mike W and Pat

I read your disagreement with interest and would chalk it up to the simple distinction between golf...and tournament golf. (Real tournament golf, that is, and not handicap / club events.)

As for golf and distance aids, I am all for any argument that gets golfers away from them.

I will repeat the argument I've made before: technology inserts a barrier between the individual and the experience. By "technology" I go to the etymological roots and mean any type of "useful knowledge."

So sprinkler heads and even 150 markers count as technology. When we use them -- and, sure, I do sometimes, especially when I am playing with anxiety or fear -- when we use them we degrade our vision.

We don't see as much, and what we manage to see we don't comprehend as fully.

We don't see the green in its fullness as a "green"; the green, at least in part, is reduced to a target.

Which is a shame on many levels, slowER play perhaps being the least, at least to me. What's really lost is your experience.

And I will add: not only that, you miss the opportunity to witness what an amazing machine your body is. Yes, eyeballing distances is a skill and, yes, it takes time and experience to develop. But as we all know, each of us possesses the world's most powerful computer: it's right between our ears. Too bad so few of us, me included sometimes / oftentimes, lack the confidence or courage to trust in it.

Which is to say, you can get really good at it. If a chop like me can, so can you!

End of rant. :-)

Tom ORourke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2011, 07:35:20 AM »
I think it is the user, not the technology. I was playing my home course the other day where I have been a member for 20 years. I was almost standing on the 150 marker, and our greens are small. I was playing with a new member who came over with his laser and was able to tell me that I was at 151. I am an 8 handicap. To me 147 to 155 is basically the same, a 7 iron, and letting me know that I was 151 instead of 150 was absurd. I am not that good. Neither was he. A slow player is a slow player, with or without a laser. Just give me enough sprinkler heads, markers on the cart paths, a few other standard markers and I am ready to pull a club when I get to my bag.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2011, 07:51:42 AM »
Can you spell curmudgeon?  (To tell you the truth, I'm not sure I can.)

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2011, 08:03:28 AM »
Tom O'Rourke:

Makes me laugh. GPS owners just cannot help themselves.

A guy I was playing with the other day offered me a yargdage and I told him I preferred to work out a rough yardage by walking off from a marker and then guessing how far forward or back of centre the flag was (before adding elevation and wind to the equation, of course).

So as he stands there I start pacing off from the 150 marker to my ball and then guess the pin is 10m back of centre and say to myself "so it's about 135 to 138ish" and he looks like he's going to burst.

I am at my bag getting a club and he can't take it anymore.

He blurts out: "it's124tothecentre141totheback" as if it were one long word and immediately looks mighty relieved. ;D

Carr Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2011, 08:12:54 AM »
Tom O'Rourke:

Makes me laugh. GPS owners just cannot help themselves.

A guy I was playing with the other day offered me a yargdage and I told him I preferred to work out a rough yardage by walking off from a marker and then guessing how far forward or back of centre the flag was (before adding elevation and wind to the equation, of course).

So as he stands there I start pacing off from the 150 marker to my ball and then guess the pin is 10m back of centre and say to myself "so it's about 135 to 138ish" and he looks like he's going to burst.

I am at my bag getting a club and he can't take it anymore.

He blurts out: "it's124tothecentre141totheback" as if it were one long word and immediately looks mighty relieved. ;D

Meanwhile, you wasted 5 minutes walking around and figuring out a rough yardage in you head while your playing partner stood and waited on you

Congrats. You really showed him ;)

 

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2011, 08:15:43 AM »
Look guys, it's the operator, not the equipment.

I recently spent a few days with a fine gentleman here on GCA and enjoyed 45 holes of golf or so with him in my foursome and only at the very end of our time spent on the course did I realize he carried a distance finder. He was so quick/incognito with it that my eye never caught it. We walked some, we rode some - and never did I feel our group played slow. He certainly did not.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2011, 08:23:28 AM »
Quote
Meanwhile, you wasted 5 minutes walking around and figuring out a rough yardage in you head while your playing partner stood and waited on you

Congrats. You really showed him

Not at all, Carr.

I had to walk over the 150 marker to get to my ball anyway, so I'd have taken those 20-odd steps whether I was counting them or not. A 3-second look at the pin to work out how far back it was, add the two distances together in another second or so and I'm ready to roll.

I had a guest come to my club on Tuesday and we played 15 holes in 2h05min. If anything, I play too fast and my game suffers as a result (and I get bent out of shape when I play behind or with slowcoaches).

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2011, 08:28:19 AM »
A number of contributors to this thread have touched on the notion that some of us may be different from others, in our habits, accoutrements, etc.

If you have the wherewithal to play with a caddie on a less-than-busy course, godspeed.

If you play on a crowded course without a caddie but with a mute cart, the cart will not offer any advice, but ...
  your round of golf's pace will most likely have less to do with you than the three or four groupings that precede you.

Under perfect, uninhibited conditions, the anonymous GCA guy with the unseen yardage device and Patrick Mucci will have a 3 hour round of golf.

How many slow golfers in one foursome does it take to hold up the entire foursome? Probably just one. No matter how well choreographed the other trio are, the one turtle will hold the group up and all groups behind will suffer.

I will say that yardage devices and markings eliminate a portion of the advice penalty. It is illegal to ask your opponent "Does it look like a wedge or a driver to you?" whereas it is perfectly within the rules to ask for a measurement or to ask if a marker is near your competitor and what it reads. Doesn't mean that the chap will answer you...
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Giles Payne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2011, 08:31:13 AM »
It is all in the attitude - playing ready golf and walking at a sensible pace.

I know this is not totally typical as we all knew the course very well, but on Tuesday night I played foursomes (traditional version - 2 ball alternate shot) matchplay in a club competition and we finished in 2.15. Partners walked ahead whilst tee shots were hit and then played when they got to the balls. We all met on the green and putted where necessary. As it was matchplay we could conceed short puts.

Equally, if we can get off first for a medal competition,  as a two ball, we can get round (holing everything) in 2.45.

It is an old course, short green to tee, but there is a real culture of prompt ready play. It is an attitude thing - there needs to be a culture of quick play.

If you do not know a course (especially a  special one) you want to play well and enjoy the experience and knowing your yardages can help this. This does not mean that you dawdle around - be ready to play when it is your turn and move at a good pace between your shots. This should mean that anyone can get around as a four ball in under 4 hours.

Matt Elliott

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Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2011, 08:40:13 AM »
I agree with Eric, it's the user not the equipment.  The guy that takes forever to use a rangefinder is the same guy who takes five minutes to decide on a club regardless of what he's doing.  If you're worried about slow play, why not go after the people that wait until the last moment to even start thinking about their next shot?  Or what about the guys that are continually 50 yards behind the rest of their group and are clueless to the fact that everyone is waiting on them?  Or why not complain about the guys that take 15 practice swings/strokes every time they're getting ready to hit?

It's not the lasers or yardage markers/books, it's how people use them.  If you compare the time it takes the same golfer to play with/without a rangefinder, I have a feeling that the rounds with the rangefinder will be quicker.  However, a slow player holding up the course will always hold up the groups behind them.  No matter how they go about it, they won't play faster because nobody is making them play faster.  It's a societal problem not a technological problem.  Unfortunately, golf has gotten slower and nobody seems  to care about policiing slow play, everyone just wants to complain about it.  

Jud_T

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Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2011, 08:42:32 AM »
Guys,

I think you're all missing the big picture.  If you went to GB&I, instituted the US handicap system and changed the culture from match play to medal, I fear you'd see a significant lengthening in time per round.  It's simply silly for the average hack to be grinding over his 3-putt for a snowman so he can post a proper medal score for handicap and "know how well he played the course" every time out.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 08:46:33 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

PCCraig

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Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2011, 08:45:29 AM »
I think the fact that there are more bad golfers trying to play harder golf courses that weren't designed to be played quickly is fundamentally a much bigger reason for slow play than range finders and the 150-yard marker in the middle of the fairway.
H.P.S.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2011, 08:59:46 AM »
It's not the user, it's not the equipment, it's the CULTURE that's develop;ed.

Just ask a guy who plumb bobs from 9 angles what he sees that he wouldn't have seen if he began figuring out his putt as he approached the green, marked, cleaned and looked at it from behind the ball PRIOR to it being his turn to play.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2011, 09:01:48 AM »
 It's simply silly for the average hack to be grinding over his 3-putt for a snowman so he can post a proper medal score for handicap and "know how well he played the course" every time out.

This is a point that I did not wish to touch on earlier, but it lines up with the "who gives a shart how far the shot is!" mentality. You hit the shot...if you smoke it and come up short or long, you shrug your shoulders and move on. When golf lost its innocence among the masses, convinced that each individual score mattered, the move was on toward the slow play that we have today. Although, I admit, I'd rather be on the course, in nature, with my pals for 6 hours than on the course for 2.5 and inside for the other 3.5.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2011, 09:14:44 AM »
It's not the user, it's not the equipment, it's the CULTURE that's develop;ed.

Just ask a guy who plumb bobs from 9 angles what he sees.

I agree with this statement 100%!

You should also include the guy who discusses every putt with his caddy or partner in minuscule detail... but never makes anything. There is much more time wasted on greens than anywhere IMHO.

However, there is such a thing as playing too fast. I have played a couple of rounds in the UK where my companion was hell bent on walking as fast as he could between shots... I mean a REALLY SUPER FAST pace. Well, I have to admit it was too much for me. Golf is supposed to be fun, and that is not fun. If someone wants to play a round of golf that fast they should leave the clubs at home and just go jogging.  ;)
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tim Martin

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Re: Debunking another MYTH
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2011, 09:26:11 AM »
Unfortunately once the local golf associations and the NCAA created the rangefinder culture there is now no turning back. The "exact" yardage mentality by use of a device is being fostered at the junior level and has permeated the golf world.

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