[Patrick_Mucci]

For decades I've opposed 250, 200, 150 and 100 yard plates in fairways, yardages on sprinkler heads, laser devices, GPS systems and every and any measuring device on a golf course.

Those opposed to my views claim that these devices (crutches) lead to faster play.

That's the MYTH.

They don't lead to faster play, they lead to slower play.

With all of the measuring devices incorporated in the last few decades, pace of play hasn't decreased, it's increased.

Golfers go into their bags, get their devices, shoot the flagstick and other objects, put the device back in their bag, pick their club and hit.  OR, they search for a sprinkler head, finally find it, then pace the distance between their ball and the sprinkler head, then go to their bag and pick their club.

Get rid of all of these devices, rely on your eye and caddy and that WILL speed the game up.

Approach your ball, look at your target, pick a club and hit your ball and then start walking again and the game will speed up.

End of Rant !

[Bill_McBride]

What if there's no caddies?

Every golfer has some idea how far he hits each club and can extrapolate for wind, elevation changes, etc.  Therefore observation of yardage markers will expedite, not slow down, the process of club selection. 

And please don't ask me to believe you never glance at the scorecard to see the distance of the par 3 you're playing, or take a peek at a sprinkler head as you walk by toward your next shot - assuming no caddy. 

I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night!   

[Ben Sims]

Mr Mucci,

Do you think that the modern aerial game and the golf architecture that has pandered to that power game is as much to blame for golfers relying on yardages as the golfers themselves?  

My point...do you think that if more courses were designed that forced the ground game as the preferred option, we would see less yardage deciphering?

[David_Elvins]

Pat,

I remember back when we wore metal spikes, the pace of play was quicker.  

The influence of soft spikes on the pace of play cannot be dismissed.  

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat,

I agree with you. But, golf in America no longer has the key to pace of play: grumpy old men who strike the fear of god in young kids learning to play the game.

[Brad Isaacs]

Slow play.... The slowest players I play with are slow in decision making in all parts of their lives. The PGA tour does not help us in this regard. We need more Rickie Fowler's.

[Garland Bayley]

What if there's no caddies?
...

Look at your target, decide what club to play, play it. Only a few percent can hit it more accurately than they can estimate it if they would only try.

[Alex Miller]

This sounds like an argument for laser range finders. Takes about 10 seconds to shoot the pin, far less than walking off yardages and not much more than doubting if your eyeballing is correct.

[Phil McDade]

Patrick:

Attending portions of the Wisconsin State Amateur this week, I saw a fairly young golfer -- certainly no older than 25 -- approach his ball in the first cut of rough, good lie, short of the green. I gave it a quick glance, and I figured he was probably 30 yards short of the green, to a flag on the back half of a two-tier, medium-sized green. Nothing in between him and the flag except fairway and green.

He took out his range finder.

[JLahrman]

There are lots of reasons for slow play.  Figuring yardages is not one of the major ones.

Sprinker head markers and plates in the fairway aren't going anywhere.  And anybody who is anal enough to use one of those yardage devices is going to pace the distance off to a sprinkler head or plate if they were suddenly to not have the device.  For the anal golfer, yardage devices speed things up (as much as they can be sped up).

Yardage-approximating golfers such as myself look for a plate, guess within five yards, and whale away.  It's a lot quicker if I can see a plate as opposed to having to go to a sprinkler head.

"Rely on your caddy"?  For what percent of golfers is this advice supposed to be relevant?

[Garland Bayley]

There are lots of reasons for slow play.  Figuring yardages is not one of the major ones.
...

Problem is that slow play is personal habit or orientation. All measuring devises do is give those with bad habits to exercise them it yet another fashion. So you see shorty, I find your analysis to fall short.

[JLahrman]

Problem is that slow play is personal habit or orientation. All measuring devises do is give those with bad habits to exercise them it yet another fashion. So you see shorty, I find your analysis to fall short.

First of all, I'm 6'6".

And yes, slow players measure their distances more slowly.  They do everything more slowly.  This is not exactly a revolutionary observation on your part.

But I find distance measurement to be one of the less offensive causes of slow play.  Much less than excessive green reading, long pre-shot routines, and most of all people not being ready to hit when it is their turn.

[David_Elvins]

Where does Obama fit into all of this? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

What if there's no caddies?

Figure it out with your eye, just like they've done for decades and decades, if not centuries

Every golfer has some idea how far he hits each club and can extrapolate for wind, elevation changes, etc.  Therefore observation of yardage markers will expedite, not slow down, the process of club selection. 

But, that's not what has happened since their introduction

And please don't ask me to believe you never glance at the scorecard to see the distance of the par 3 you're playing, or take a peek at a sprinkler head as you walk by toward your next shot - assuming no caddy. 

Obviously, I observe the par on the hole I'm playing along with the yardage, wind, elevation, location of the flagstick, hazards, etc, etc..
I also observe where the water coolers/fountains are, especially on hot days like today.

What's mind boggling to me is when a golfer, who's been playing a course for 20 years, asks a caddy, who's been caddying there for two weeks, how far he has, or how his putt breaks.  

Golfers have a game that doesn't vary much day to day, distance wise.
They don't drive it 240 one day and 180 the next, therefore their shot patterns, distance wise usually puts them at approximately the same distance, OR, they hit their irons about the same distance every time when they make decent contact, therefore they should have a high degree of familiarity with each hole, each shot, every day, negating the need for distance assistance.

Get rid of these distractions, return the game to it's purest form and speed up play[/size]

I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night!   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mr Mucci,

Do you think that the modern aerial game and the golf architecture that has pandered to that power game is as much to blame for golfers relying on yardages as the golfers themselves?  

My point...do you think that if more courses were designed that forced the ground game as the preferred option, we would see less yardage deciphering?
  Ben, 

No, the golfer still has to estimate the overall distance he needs to hit the ball

It doesn't matter if he has to carry it 150 with 5 yards of roll, or 120 yards of carry and 35 yards of roll, he still needs to determine the distance and conceptualize his shot,

[Michael Whitaker]

Patrick - Sorry, but you're wrong. I'm on the Executive Committee of the South Carolina Golf Association and have worked many of our tournaments. I also receive detailed reports from our staff at each board meeting. The use of range finders has unquestionably increased the pace of play in our events and reduced the average time per round. You could never convince our staff to turn back the clock and return to the slower non-device days.

Now, my reference is not casual play, I understand... this is serious competitive golf. But, the fact of the matter is electronic measuring devices increase the pace of play... they do not slow things down.

I will agree with you that marked sprinkler heads slow down play as golfers wander around looking for them. But, that is just anecdotal supposition on my part... as is your entire rant.

As for caddies... how many of them now use ranger finders to give you a distance? Of the last six caddies I have had, four of them used range finders. As a matter of fact, one forgot his range finder and asked to borrow mine!  

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

This sounds like an argument for laser range finders. Takes about 10 seconds to shoot the pin, far less than walking off yardages and not much more than doubting if your eyeballing is correct.

Alex,

You're dreaming

There's not a golfer I've ever seen who takes 10 seconds to use his laser

The process usually goes like this:
He arrives at his ball, goes to his bag, gets his laser out of his bag, or out of the case it's in hanging from his bag.
Walks over to, and hovers over his ball, shoots the range, once or twice, returns to his bag, rebags his laser, or puts it back in it's case and then reattaches it to his bag, returns to his ball, picks his club and plays.

What I like about guys who rely on lasers is they usually ignore the other important features, resulting in adverse consequences should they not hit the exact shot.

At Pine Valley last week, on the first tee, the pro informed us that rangefinders were prohibited. there are NO yardages on the sprinkler heads at PV.  We teed off at 7:30 and played the front nine in 1:30.   We didn't play the back nine as quickly as we caught up to yhe back end of the field feeing off the back nine.

What's also been a mystery to me is how golfers ONLY start the calibration process when they reach their ball.
I always started it long BEFORE I reached my ball.
Same for reading putts.

[Garland Bayley]

Problem is that slow play is personal habit or orientation. All measuring devises do is give those with bad habits to exercise them it yet another fashion. So you see shorty, I find your analysis to fall short.

First of all, I'm 6'6".

And yes, slow players measure their distances more slowly.  They do everything more slowly.  This is not exactly a revolutionary observation on your part.

But I find distance measurement to be one of the less offensive causes of slow play.  Much less than excessive green reading, long pre-shot routines, and most of all people not being ready to hit when it is their turn.

Lynn Shackelford told me you looked kinda short.

JK Moore told me you hit it wild like all us lanky guys. Well, all except Lynn.

I stood around forever at Old MacDonald while the guys I played with played with their distance measuring devices. I found them quite offensive, and rude. They are especially rude in the hands of a high handicapper who can't hit anything consistently close to the distances determined. And remember high handicappers are the majority, by a lot.

[Sam Morrow]

I think a slow player is a slow player no matter what. You can give a slow player any tool and he is still slow. I'm not a GPS guy but I play fast and it doesn't matter what I have to help me with measurement, I play fast. I think the best way to play quickly is be taught that way. As a kid I played fast for two reasons, first was that I wanted to play as many holes as possible, second was that my Dad was a very fast player and got me down that path. Before he became so sick the past few years my Dad stood by the theory that he was the worlds fast 36 handicapper.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Whitaker,  

If you're trying to tell me that play, and tournament play is faster today than 50 years ago, before all of these "assistants" were available, you too are dreaming

When's the last time a foursome or a  threesome played in under 3 hours ?
A foursome in 3.5 ?

Is competing in, and winning a tournament more important today than it was 50 years ago ?

NO, it's not, but play has slowed to a crawl.

When I was competing, especially in qualifiers, I always requested the last tee off time.
Why. ?  Because I knew I'd be out there all day, and with the last time of the day, I could practice my putting to my heart's content, rather than standing around and stewing about 5+ hour rounds

I've also officiated local, NJ, MGA and USGA events, so my data base, experience wise, is fairly extensive.

[Alex Miller]

This sounds like an argument for laser range finders. Takes about 10 seconds to shoot the pin, far less than walking off yardages and not much more than doubting if your eyeballing is correct.

Alex,

You're dreaming

There's not a golfer I've ever seen who takes 10 seconds to use his laser

The process usually goes like this:
He arrives at his ball, goes to his bag, gets his laser out of his bag, or out of the case it's in hanging from his bag.
Walks over to, and hovers over his ball, shoots the range, once or twice, returns to his bag, rebags his laser, or puts it back in it's case and then reattaches it to his bag, returns to his ball, picks his club and plays.

What I like about guys who rely on lasers is they usually ignore the other important features, resulting in adverse consequences should they not hit the exact shot.

At Pine Valley last week, on the first tee, the pro informed us that rangefinders were prohibited. there are NO yardages on the sprinkler heads at PV.  We teed off at 7:30 and played the front nine in 1:30.   We didn't play the back nine as quickly as we caught up to yhe back end of the field feeing off the back nine.

What's also been a mystery to me is how golfers ONLY start the calibration process when they reach their ball.
I always started it long BEFORE I reached my ball.
Same for reading putts.

The most dangerous golfer is a GCA golfer with a laser. No doubt they've researched the course before they've played it. They've observed the critical strategic features as they walked to the ball, and they've got the laser out of their bag ready to go when they shoot the pin while standing next to their ball. That literally takes as long as eyeballing (if you are competent with the device).

So yeah, a usual golfer with a range finder might be slow, but he'd be slower without it.

[JLahrman]

Michael Whitaker,  

If you're trying to tell me that play, and tournament play is faster today than 50 years ago, before all of these "assistants" were available, you too are dreaming.

Where in Michael's post does he make any comparison to 50 years ago?  How in the world did you dream that up?

[Jim Johnson]

Pat, I'm sorry I disagree.
I have a SkyCaddie and walk with a Sun Mountain Speedcart. My SkyCaddie is kept in the fliptop compartment on the handlebar of the Speedcart. As I approach my ball, the lid is flipped up, I glance at the SkyCaddie, and the selected club is out of the bag before the cart comes to a stop. No looking for a sprinkler head, or digging for a laser, or glancing for a red or white or blue disc.
Speeds up my game.

The "myth" probably pertains to "how" these things are used. If the golfer stands around and waits until it's his turn to hit and then hauls out his "aid" to determine distance, then yes, it isn't helping speed play. But that's another story.

[Michael Whitaker]

Patrick_Mucci,

All I'm saying is that we have undeniable evidence in SC that the use of range finders has increased the pace of play in our events. It is what it is. The devices have reduced the time it takes to get a full field of players around the course in SC Golf Association tournaments. For that, our staff is very grateful.

I can't speak to the events you have worked or to your playing experience. And, I can't address your other questions because any answer offered would be pure speculation on my part. As I said before, most of your argument (if not all) is based on anecdotal evidence.

I think Sam Morrow's explanation of slow play makes more sense. Slow players are just slow players. We all know a few. They are slow with measuring devices and they are slow without them.

[JLahrman]

I stood around forever at Old MacDonald while the guys I played with played with their distance measuring devices. I found them quite offensive, and rude. They are especially rude in the hands of a high handicapper who can't hit anything consistently close to the distances determined. And remember high handicappers are the majority, by a lot.

I have noticed that many of these devices are used by guys who have much more to worry about than the yardage.  But people who are going to use the devices are the same ones who are going to pace off distances to the exact yardage if they don't have the device.  I will take the former.

What I do find somewhat amusing are the players who use their distance aids to tell me exactly how far I am for my shot.  It's a nice gesture but I'm thinking "Based on the previous shots you've seen me hit, what gives you the idea that I have any clue how far I'm going to hit this ball?"

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