[PCCraig]

What steps do architects take to ensure that their potential customers are legitimate? Do architects assess the overall project before deciding to take a job? Should they?

Or does a large enough deposit quell any of these worries?

[Randy Thompson]

Depends what part of the world you are in and what you can demand and not demand. Most take what we can get in times like these. I try to do nothing for free and get 10 percent before lifting a pencil. You can feel and identify the serious ones quickly as well as the free riders or dreamers or snakes.

[Lester George]

Ditto Randy.  We do not produce any drawings before we have a signed agreement and our initial payment.  The only times (3 or 4 times) I have ever deviated from that I have regretted it.  Clients who start out looking for something for nothing usually don't make it to construction, at least not with us.

Lester

[PCCraig]

Randy / Lester:

Interesting comments, thanks for sharing. I suppose I realize now that it's a touchy subject.

[Jud_T]

 We do not produce any drawings before we have a signed agreement and our initial payment. 

You guys have higher standards than many building architects and clients.  Nice to see and smart business practice...

[Lester George]

Jud,

I am not sure it is higher standards or scar tissue resulting from being burned. 

We do assess as best we can our clients in advance.  If we don't know them we try to find out as much as possible in advance of producing any "solutions" whether it be a routing or space plan.  Clients who want those before they have a contract can always find someone to put something on paper for little or no money.  Those "no money" concepts usually do not hold up to the scrutiny of investors, lenders, permitting agencies, zoning applications and so on. 

In essence we just don't have much patience for clients who think creating a golf course is simple and architects should not be paid for their services. It is more a product of experience than anything else.  I can usually walk out of a meeting with a new client and know exactly what kind of person/client they are and whether or not I want anything to do with them.

Lester

[Tom_Doak]

I have been burned a couple of times for failing to heed Randy and Lester's suggested approach.

However, I can also tell them that I got to build one or two of my best projects, only because I was willing to break my own rule.  Some clients with a great site are going to drive a hard bargain, and others are working on a shoestring and can't afford to spend much cash up front.  Many of the leading architects are willing to do some preliminary work for free -- because they can afford to, and because it gets their foot in the door.

If you are in business to make a living, that's a different perspective than if you are in business to be part of some great projects.

[Randy Thompson]

I agree with what you’re saying Tom but like I stated, it depends where you are. I don´t think there is a client educated enough down here to know what a great site is in order to bargin hard. I have been burned once about seven or eight years ago and they were deep not just surface burns and like Lester says, it left some scar tissue behind. But about two years ago I felt compassion for a client and believed in him as an individual and made an exception and did a nine hole routing with some residential product without any payment and made two visits inorcordance with the work. About a year ago we signed the contract, got paid everything in 90 days and we should finish construction in about ninety days. He knew I made an exception for him and was extremely grateful to the point that six months ago he surprised me by offering to have a public relation firm re-do my web page at his cost. They have been doing so for about six months and should be ready by the end of the month. So it’s never black and white, there are still a lot of great humans left in the world; unfortunately they are the minority and a declining breed. Lester´s right, one meeting and you have a good feel and 99% of the time, it’s in the first fifteen minutes of the meeting.

[Tom_Doak]

Randy:

Good for you for knowing when to break your own rule.

I agree with you that in general, I know whether a client is going to be a problem or not in the first 15 minutes.  And yet sometimes I've chosen to work for those guys with problems just because I really wanted to build a course on that particular ground.

For example, I knew from the beginning that St. Andrews Beach was going to have payment issues, and indeed, they went bankrupt owing me a good chunk of money.  And I'm truly sorry for the people who joined the place and were left out in the cold [though it's never that cold in Australia].  In fact, if I hadn't been so anxious to build that course, it might well have never got going in the first place ... and it would either be lying dormant today, or some other architect would have built a different course on it, and that would have driven me crazy.

Instead, I got to build the course I really wanted to, and it turned out great.  It went through some very hard times, but it's still there and people are enjoying it right now.  I would probably do it again today, even knowing how it was going to turn out.

[Mike_Young]

Hmmm.....interesting....

How many here have done routings in China w/o getting paid up front or had clients ask them to come over at their expense?  I would bet many

[Joel_Stewart]

. I try to do nothing for free and get 10 percent before lifting a pencil.

Lets assume the following:

1. Client is legit and has plenty of money.
1a. You like the client and feel you can work with them.
2. You like the site.
3. You know he is interviewing 5 architects.

How do you sell yourself without "lifting a pencil" and doing a preliminary routing and some sketches?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Joel,
While I am not an architect, IMO:

You take the prospective client to see some of your work and you introduce him to your previous clients.

There is no greater measure of a person's ability to do good work then seeing the results in person and no better barometer of what a person is like to work with then visiting with those he has worked for in the past. Why some allow this step to be skipped over, replaced by fancy graphics, and rehearsed presentations, I'll never know.

[Tom_Doak]

Don:

I was inclined to agree with you, but of course, there is probably going to be more than one architect who passes your test above.

Say somebody is trying to decide between me, Bill Coore, and Tom Fazio.  How do they do it?  Some of it's based on the courses they've played; some on what their friends say; a lot depends on which of us have built courses close by already.  But, given a field full of "qualified" architects, some owners are going to go on the basis of how much the architect seems to want the job, and there are always going to be some who are willing to do some work for free at the beginning. 

[Heck, Bill Coore actually spends several days going out and walking the site and trying to do a routing before he would consider signing up or asking for payment! -- but he only does it for courses he really wants, and that tends to impress those clients.]

[BCrosby]

Unhappily, I would also think a factor is often how much curb appeal a particular name carries, without regard to his skills as an architect or his enthusiasm for the the project. Lots will need to be sold.

Or is that sooo '05?

Bob

[Joel_Stewart]

Unhappily, I would also think a factor is often how much curb appeal a particular name carries, without regard to his skills as an architect or his enthusiasm for the the project. Lots will need to be sold.

Or is that sooo '05?

Bob

Thats probably 2005 thinking.

An owner is going to know what they want.  If they are considering Doak or Coore they have a vision they want to achieve.  Same if they hire Fazio, it's just a different vision.

I still feel if they are hiring an architect, showing them pictures isn't going to sell them.  To me, in Tom's example, if Bill Coore walked the property for 3 days, he's a leading candidate.  To some, sadly many, if Nicklaus sends the jet for a round at Augusta, he's a leading candidate.

[Tom_Doak]

  To some, sadly many, if Nicklaus sends the jet for a round at Augusta, he's a leading candidate.

Joel:

I don't believe Jack has ever had a job he wanted so badly as to go to that extreme!

He did spend most of a day meeting with our client at Mosaic to try and get that job, but the client pretty much knew what direction he wanted to go already.  I think even that was pretty unusual for Jack.  For years, he was really too busy to meet with potential clients for long -- but clients are generally impressed that their potential architect is really busy.

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