[John Kavanaugh]

Back on topic - I've found the following successful with beginning kids:

• Use the Junior Par System http://www.usga.org/handicapping/articles_resources/Golf-is-for-Kids-too!/ My kids ask now, "What's par for me, 7?"  Then when they get a 6 on a par 4, they are psyched!
• Don't count duffs, lost balls, misses, etc.  They've got plenty of time to take penalty strokes later.
• As long as we're not being pushed, allow redos.  Count the redo score.
• Let them steer the cart.  (Corollary: no forced death marches with bag over shoulder.)
• NO unsolicited swing advice.  If they ask, answer.  NO negative comments or post swing corrections.  Lots of high-fives and fist bumps on good shots.
• When they call you to ask if you will take them golfing, just say YES!

Really?  Is that how you were raised?  Not all kids are pussies, but keep working at it and they soon will be.

[Kalen Braley]

I have a couple of girls 13 and 14, and honestly I don't know what the right or wrong answer is to this dilemma.

My thing is, I try to expose them to all sorts of different things and hope something sticks.  I come from a slightly different line of thought in that I believe our kids are just on loan to us for a few years, and its my job to try to educate them and get them as ready as possible for the real world when they grow thier wings and leave the nest.  I've never forced any sports on my kids, but I do regularly bring up opportunities/ideas in hopes of getting them hooked on something that they really like.  Cause at the end of the day, you don't really pick the things you like, they more or less pick you.

I liken it to being a member of this site.  I really really am interested in golf architecture, and who would've guessed that...we're such a teeny teeny fringe group that is apart of a bigger small minority group that is golfers. 

Most of my friends don't golf, and of those who do play, I've yet to find any that have any kind of interest in architecture...it chose me, I didn't chose it.

[Mark Pearce]

A several times former club champion at my club (and scratch golfer) has two sons.  One plays rugby with my eldest son, the other (12) plays cricket with my twins.  The 15 year old has no interest at all in golf.  The 12 year old is fanatically keen and plays off a mid-teens handicap.  Interestingly his interest in golf really appears to have taken off when he had an unsuccesful trial for the county U12 cricket team.  He's clearly good enough to play cricket at that level but I understand that he was rejected because he didn't have the required team ethic.  That aside, I'm pretty sure he enjoys the game.

[David Harshbarger]

I have a couple of girls 13 and 14, and honestly I don't know what the right or wrong answer is to this dilemma.

My thing is, I try to expose them to all sorts of different things and hope something sticks.  I come from a slightly different line of thought in that I believe our kids are just on loan to us for a few years, and its my job to try to educate them and get them as ready as possible for the real world when they grow thier wings and leave the nest.  I've never forced any sports on my kids, but I do regularly bring up opportunities/ideas in hopes of getting them hooked on something that they really like.  Cause at the end of the day, you don't really pick the things you like, they more or less pick you.

I liken it to being a member of this site.  I really really am interested in golf architecture, and who would've guessed that...we're such a teeny teeny fringe group that is apart of a bigger small minority group that is golfers. 

Most of my friends don't golf, and of those who do play, I've yet to find any that have any kind of interest in architecture...it chose me, I didn't chose it.

I completely agree with you, Kalen.  My selfish interest in getting them to the golf course is so that after they come back from the tumultuous 16-25 years and think spending time with Dad would be OK, we'll have an organizing activity to do so.

My wife reminds me that the next 10-15 years of our lives are for our kids.  We had years to party. We had years to travel.  Now are the years to expose the kids to the world.  And in 15 years, we'll be back to focusing on ourselves.

That said, since I love golf, and believe in the value of golf as a lifelong activity, that they are interested, and want to share this activity with me is a blessing.  I just hope every time that I don't screw this opportunity up.

Paramount in my strategy, as JK has so keenly observed, is to make sure they have FUN.  Last I checked, golf is a hard sport to master, and nearly all beginners miss hit many swings.  The early stage they are in could easily sour them on the game forever if they associate golfing with nagging, being talked at, failure, pain, etc.  They are going to be mightily challenged just to get the ball in the air on a regular basis.  I see my job as to make everything else possible about the golf experience fun.  That means soda, chips and jerky after the round.  Or ice cream at the Ice Cream Man.  Whatever it takes for them to reach a level of mastery where the inherent joys of successful golf will provide the reinforcement to keep playing.

Would I like them to grow to become successful golfers? Absolutely!  But my success criteria raising my junior golfers is simpler: Observe proper etiquette.  Be able to play a corporate outing.  Be able to do business on the course.  Be able to play and enjoy any course. Be able to join Dad on a golf vacation.

[John Kavanaugh]

Am I the only guy who grew up thinking my goal in life was to not disappoint my father?  Is there something wrong with believing it is my childrens job not to disappoint me?  You people seem to have it all bass ackwards.

[Mark Pearce]

Am I the only guy who grew up thinking my goal in life was to not disappoint my father?  Is there something wrong with believing it is my childrens job not to disappoint me?  You people seem to have it all bass ackwards.

You may well be.  And it would explain a lot.

I would feel I had failed as a father if my kids thought that their goal in life should be not to disappoint me. 

[Kalen Braley]

Am I the only guy who grew up thinking my goal in life was to not disappoint my father?  Is there something wrong with believing it is my childrens job not to disappoint me?  You people seem to have it all bass ackwards.

You may well be.  And it would explain a lot.

I would feel I had failed as a father if my kids thought that their goal in life should be not to disappoint me.  

+ 1000

I grew up fearing my father as he had a wicked temper and beat me down several times for trivial things.  I can't think of a reason I would ever want to do that to my kids.  

To this day, even though he has massively chilled out in his golden years, we have never "bonded" as a result of that.

[David Kelly]

I was shocked when I read that Joe Louis Jr. gets around $1M a year in salary to run the First Tee program.  Are there any studies or evidence to show that the program is successful? 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Steve,
Why didn't you (and your pop) say you were sick that day?
Golf hookey is fun and noble.
Cheers
Mike

[Steve Kline]

I was shocked when I read that Joe Louis Jr. gets around $1M a year in salary to run the First Tee program.  Are there any studies or evidence to show that the program is successful? 

And, I bet he isn't the only big salary. And, that it was I agree the First Tee is kind of a joke. A true charitable organization shouldn't have someone making that much money - at least not one that wants me to give money to it and volunteer my time to it.

[Steve Kline]

Steve,
Why didn't you (and your pop) say you were sick that day?
Golf hookey is fun and noble.
Cheers
Mike

I guess cause my dad was teaching my a valuable life lesson.

I've played golf hookey many days of my working life. I didn't need to be taught that lesson. 

[Jerry Kluger]

Golf is a tough game for juniors because most of your worthwhile practicing is done alone.  Kids like to play with other kids so team sports are much more attractive to them.  My 17 year old quit when he was around 15 because he couldn't take the frustration; his view was that you take a lesson and get worse.  My 15 year old likes the game but really isn't into practicing but I think he will enjoy it more if he makes the school team and has some friends to go out and play with.  

I don't know too much about First Tee but I do know that the game is really hurting itself by not encouraging junior play.  I went on vacation with my son and many of the courses did not offer junior rates.  Even our local muni doesn't offer junior rates on the weekends which is ridiculous.  

I think what makes it tough for most of us is that we love the game so much and get so frustrated when our kids don't love it too.  We just don't understand how they could not love the game.  But that is the same thing with many things that kids do and how frustrated we get when they don't use all their abilities or they don't take advantage of all the opportunities available to them.  

Perhaps this is just another example of what we see in our everyday world - every generation wants to make the world a better place for the next generation and when it appears that may not happen there can be some very strong disagreements between us.

[Emile Bonfiglio]

I may be on the premature side of this discussion, but I have found the first tee to be absolutely critical in my sons (ages 3 & 5) like for the game. At our house we have a a small artificial green and a net that they play on a couple times a week, sometimes I let them hit into the back part of the property and then shag the balls. This has given them both great confidence and a chance to work on their form (even though the little man hits all clubs using the left hand low grip). But I find he have the best time and get the most enjoyment when go to "The Children's Course", which is a First Tee sponsored course. They can play 9 holes for $5 and I can walk with them for no costs. To me this is the setup we need more off. I remember as a kid walking with my dad all the time as he played a round with his buddies. Occasionally he would let me hit a few shots and it was all good. Seem like now days, there are very little chances for kids just to play without pressure and extreme costs.

[Steve Kline]

Kids under 12 play for free at Pinehurst Resort courses except #2. I think #2 is a discounted rate.

[Mike Hendren]

Best parenting advice I ever received:  Value your children based upon who they are right now - not what they might become.

Yes, Barney some of us are weenies.

Mike

[Tim Martin]

With the exception of their two day championship the Connecticut/Western Mass PGA Section does not allow spectators at any of the junior tournaments. This is a direct result of numerous instances where parents inserted themselves into situations where they didn`t belong causing embarrassment for their children and ultimately themselves. I think it`s been a positive for the kids as there is enough pressure in medal golf without some overbearing parent attempting to give advice and make the kid even more nervous. Although the Connecticut State Golf association and the AJGA don`t adhere to this I like that the section took this action.

[Paul OConnor]

Tim,
That's a great policy.  I heard a story from the caddies yesterday about the Western Junior at Beverly.
 Beverly supplied the kids with regular Beverly caddies, and after one of the competitors got a rough start, the kid's father stepped up, took the bag and told the caddy, "I'll take the bag from here, there's a college scholarships on the line."  Kid shot 87 anyway.  

[Pat Burke]

My family history.
Grandfather>> Ben Toski.  Older brother of Bob Toski.  One of four successful golf professionals.  Bob a world renowned teacher.
Mother AND Father golf professionals!  Dad a former NJ State Open winner.  Mom one of the first female PGA members.
Older brother, a successful PGA professional.  Former tour player.  Multiple times section player of the year.  Played in 10+ majors.
I teach now.  Run a successful junior golf foundation (240+ kids a week for free!).  Played for a living for a while.

My daughter??  Is a hell of a musician.  Will be entering college next year to study music performance  
She had no interest in golf, other than riding around in carts every once in a while. Is a happy kid, who has wanted to play music since 3rd grade.

BTW, she and her boyfriend have played a 9 hole par three twice in the past couple of weeks!
We introduced her to everything we could, and she found her own passion.  Couldn't be happier or prouder of her

[Tim Martin]

Tim,
That's a great policy.  I heard a story from the caddies yesterday about the Western Junior at Beverly.
 Beverly supplied the kids with regular Beverly caddies, and after one of the competitors got a rough start, the kid's father stepped up, took the bag and told the caddy, "I'll take the bag from here, there's a college scholarships on the line."  Kid shot 87 anyway.  

Paul-I`ll bet he would have fared better if the father walked 50 yards behind and didn`t get involved. I can`t imagine that the kid could have been better served than by the Beverly caddie at Beverly.You could only imagine how he felt when the switch went down and that comment was made.

[Jim Nelson]

I have mentioned this before in posts on Jr. golf, but I think it bears repeating.  On a Saturday at County Louth (Baltray), a well-respected course north of Dublin, there were loads of kids out playing in a Jr. tournament.  Again, remember, this was a Saturday at a private course.  There were a few members, a few guests and bunches of kids.  Why does this matter?  A lot of reasons.  One thing we noticed was the lack of adults.  No coaches, parents etc.  All of the Jr. golfers looked to be having fun and enjoyed interacting with us, the Americans, as we asked them questions.  Their enthusiasm was infectious.  Upon reflection, I think there was a more important point.  This club was in a fairly rural area, away from the suburbs of Dublin and more importantly, away from competing activities that urban centers seems to have.  This looked to be a place where they could come and congregate with their peers, play some golf without be watched all the time and have fun.  The game became organic, not forced.  Have you been to Holywood, home of Rory?  Not much going on their either, so golf becomes an outlet for kids.  They want to be with friends and that's where they are.  Very few become Rory, but I guess the point is, if Rory had lived in a big American suburb, would he have gravitated to golf?  Much less likely.  My guess is that in Northern Ireland, a population smaller than Las Vegas, there thousands of kids out playing now because of their success.  It has now become cool.  I do not think their success will be short-lived.  If you doubt that, just try getting Jr. tournaments on a Saturday morning on just about any top club.   

[Tim Martin]

Tim,
That's a great policy.  I heard a story from the caddies yesterday about the Western Junior at Beverly.
 Beverly supplied the kids with regular Beverly caddies, and after one of the competitors got a rough start, the kid's father stepped up, took the bag and told the caddy, "I'll take the bag from here, there's a college scholarships on the line."  Kid shot 87 anyway.  

Paul-I`ll bet he would have fared better if the father walked 50 yards behind and didn`t get involved. I can`t imagine that the kid could have been better served than by the Beverly caddie at Beverly.You could only imagine how he felt when the switch went down and that comment was made.

Here's what my dad always did (that is, when he came at all):  Watched me off of #1, gave me a wink and a stoic's "go get 'em" thumbs up as I left the tee, and stood by at 18 to watch me hole out.  Then he'd find an out of the way place to wait for me as I signed my card, turned it in, shot the shit, etc. before taking me home.  In other words, he knew enough to just let me do my thing.  Maybe it was because he was a fine player who has felt tournament pressure before and knew better.  Maybe it was because he wanted to sit in the bar for 4 hours.   Who knows.  Who cares. All I know is that I didn't want, need or get any of the insane overparenting that goes on today.  We never, ever had to talk about this.  I never had to say "dad, you being around makes me nervous" or anything like that.  It was just understood and respected.

Shivas - Sounds like your dad handled it just about perfect. No wonder you are so well adjusted.

[Padraig Dooley]

Padraig:  My 9 year old's current basketball coach has her team running double screens on offense, a stack play for inbounding, and a box and one zone on defense.  At 9!  And they got creamed last week.

I only have a few basics for my kids in the winter season when I coach:

On offense, move, move, move (to shake your defender...anybody can guard a statute), pass, pass, pass (you can pass it faster than you can dribble it) and pivot, pivot, pivot (blocking the defense with their bodies).  

On defense, get back, stick to your man like glue, hands up, help out when you see somebody wide open going to the basket, and when a shot goes up, stick your butt into somebody and block out.  

That's it.  That's all we ever talk about or practice... No plays.  Nothing fancy.  Just basic basketball.  We hardly ever even practice shooting.  And they love the rebounding drills.    And, oh, by the way, they haven't lost in 3 years because they love playing defense - they play defense as ruthlessly as HG Whigahm wanted to cut down trees!  

You're 100% right on the difference between results and process.  Too many parents focus on short term results (ie, winning) over fundamentals.

Oh, and when we dribble, I have them use their "other hand (their bad hand)".  And when we scrimmage, I have everybody switch positions - the tall kids play point and the short kids play center.  They think that's great fun.  One of the best coaching moments I had was when one of the littlest kids said "I'm little, I can't play center".  I told her "if the girl guarding you is your size, too, of course you can!"  And she posted up, pivoted and hit a shot...You should have seen the "yes, I can" look on her face...just priceless.

David

Sounds great

[Phil McDade]

Through no doing of my own other than drawing the short straw at a long-ago organizational meeting, I ended up coaching a co-ed recreational soccer team of 10-year-olds several years ago. I'd never played soccer in my life, had never really coached anyone, either, and had probably watched one or two soccer games, ever. My team included what, to this day, might be, collectively, the most un-athletic group of young men (my son included) ever assembled on a youth soccer field.

But, somehow I was given a roster that included several good girls. After about, oh, 10 minutes of practice, I deduced that I should build my team around three of the girls:

-- One, built like a fire hydrant, with an absolute brick of a right foot, wanted nothing more than to give the what-for to a bunch of 10-year-old soccer players -- and if they were boys, all the better. She became my last line of defense. My coaching advice: "Don't let anyone past you, and when you get to the ball, kick the heck out of it." She became a four-year starter for our high school girls soccer team, as a defender, and is going on to play collegiately at the Div. III level.

-- The second, tall and skinny, was the second-fastest kid on our team, and had an athletic grace that you can spot -- right away -- at that age. She was one of two forwards, and scored a lot of goals basically by getting to the ball quicker than everyone else and outrunning everyone to the goal. I never once told her to stay in her position; if she could get to the ball, I told her to go get it and do something with it. She ended up earning 12 varsity letters at our high school, including four in soccer, and earned the school's athlete-of-the-year award this past spring.

-- The third, the shortest player on the team (she might have been 4-feet-tall -- maybe...), was the fastest player on the team, had a motor that wouldn't stop, and had -- I swear this is true -- at the age of 10 a Gretzky-like way of seeing plays develop on the field that no one else did. My coaching consisted of leaving her alone and taking her out occasionally to make sure she'd get a water break. She ended up being this:
http://host.madison.com/sports/columnists/rob_hernandez/article_6decdb12-7cb8-11e0-b053-001cc4c03286.html

I, of course, credit the coaching.

[Padraig Dooley]

A pro I know, of whom I have an enormous amount of respect, is a well known teacher and enjoys a great reputation amongst junior golfers. Here's a story of his:

Kid's father calls pro and asks about lessons. Travel a fair amount of miles to meet with him. Pro asks kid about his background; experience, expectations, weakesses, strengths, if he enjoys the game, past, if any, teachers, etc. Kid has seen half dozen pros in the last couple of years. Kid hits balls for pro. Pro thinks kid has game. Pro teaches kid, kid progresses. Dad always at lesson, either 30 feet away or 30 yards away. Kid goes to a national junior tournament. Kid plays poorly the first round. Pro receives call from dad, essentially blaming the pro for kid's round. Dad asks pro what the kid should do. Pro tells dad that probably the best thing he could do for kid would be to go give him a hug at that moment and take him kid out for a dinner. Silence on other end. Pro had given his last lesson to kid.

David, you're right, the biggest problem is the parents. The pro has to spend as much time coaching them as the kids.

[Mike_Young]

Mike:

May I ask why you find The First Tee as an "expensive joke?"

I tend to agree with you regarding your second, more legitimate, point. I grew up playing quite a few different sports (Football, Hockey, Baseball, etc...) but ended up finding a love for golf pretty much on my own, considering my parents didn't play. Because I decided I liked it better by mid-high school, I naturally focused on it the most and pushed aside the other sports.

That being said, what's wrong with The First Tee being there so that children from low income families can find golf for themselves, as well?  

Patrick,
Since a couple of more have commented here regarding the First Tee I will just make a couple of brief comments and if you need more info we can IM. I tried being involved in First Tee twice.  The First Tee is one of those "feel good" non profits whereby they approach every major corporate sponsor that can't turn them down and push for their support.  And for most of the corporate sponsors it is much easier to send the check than to argue.  And it really makes them look good since First Tee spends to promote itself accordingly.  I see a few things that make it  a joke.  First is the head guy.  Why?  Second is the "bang for the buck".  Calculate how many of the dollars get back to the kids vs. if the same amount was circulated in pre-exisitng  community golf courses which could accommodate the kids.  And Thirdly, how many of the kids continue to play and where can they play.  As I have gotten older I realize that so many in an industry such as golf cannot make these types of comments or be associated with these types of comments.  But those people will agree with you 100% on this subject in private.  First Tee thrives on Hype not substance.   The PGA has better alternatives...If there is an interest to hear specifics then IM and will spill a few.

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