Why did the second Golden age (1995-2010) miss Great Britain?

[David_Elvins]

Why did the second Golden Age of golf course architecture miss great Britain?

I would be interested to hear people's theories. 

In the top 50 thread I rather flippantly posted that "The reasons are probably many, but you only have to look at the way that mediocre and bad architecture is too often accepted, excused, and politely ignored by the British posters on this site to realise that the British golfing community probably wasn't ready hand over their design jobs to a bunch of honest young upstarts."

Firstly, did the second Golden Age miss Great Britain?  If no, what are the courses of world significance built in the last 15 years and what are the significant restoration projects of the last 15 years. 

Secondly, if yes, why do you think it did? 

Do I have any reasonable grounds for suggesting that the revolution in American Golf Design was due partly due to the frankness of Tom Doak in the Confidential Guide and the forwardness of people such as Geoff Shackelford and Tommy Naccarato in refusing to accept mediocre work at courses such as Merion, Sand Pines, and Riviera?  Did the frankness of peopel like  Mike Clayton in his writing and comments on golf courses and the passion of people who refused to politely accept bad work at places such as Commonwealth, lead to a huge imporvement of Australian golf courses?  Was Pat Ruddy's uncompromising passion what created The European Club? 

Have the British shown anything like the same frankness and passion in attacking bad work in Britain? Have they been too respectful to Martin Hawtree due to his heritage and position with the r&A and not called him out on his poorer work often enough?  Is this partly the reason why the last 15 years of golf architecture in Britain has not kept up with other countries?


Or am I completely off base? If so, what do you think are the reasons why few significant courses and few significant restorations were completed in the post modern era?  Lack of money?  Lack of Land?  Gypsies?

[Scott Warren]

Good thread, David.

I'm not sure where I stand on this, but I will say that I view an example of the polite acceptance of controversial alterations in GB&I to exist in the recent changes to 17 at Walton Heath (Old).

That was a unique and thrilling golf hole - controversial to some - that was altered to its detriment. It may be somewhat more playable, but it has far less character as a result.

I do have to comment on a few things though:

Do I have any reasonable grounds for suggesting that the revolution in American Golf Design was due partly due to... the forwardness of people such as Geoff Shackelford and Tommy Naccarato in refusing to accept mediocre work at courses such as Merion, Sand Pines, and Riviera?

What did they achieve? What changes took place as a result of their complaints?

Was Pat Ruddy's uncompromising passion what created The European Club?

No. He was the owner, designer and builder. I'd strongly, strongly suggest the course would be significantly better were he to have occupied only one or two of those three positions.

David: Please could you nominate some poor work from the past 15 years in GB&I that offsets the good, well-received work done at Dornoch, Castle Stuart, Kingsbarns, Dundonald, The Castle Course, Crail, Renaissance Club, Loch Lomond, Bearwood Lakes etc?

Also, is it possible that in reference to your comments about Australia, the very best courses in GB&I haven't been adversely affected by modern changes as much as in Australia, where many on the Sandbelt and NSWGC for starters have seen regrettable changes made, so there is less to criticise?

[Sean_A]

David

I don't think the second coming did miss GB&I.  Looking at Scotland, some newish courses which are highly regarded:

St Andrews Castle
Renaissance
Kingsbarns
Loch Lomond
Castle Stuart

Dundonald and Mach Dunes are also quite good so I am told.

These may not represent the cream of the crop, but taken as a group, this lot is one of the strongest in the world - no?  I would say very few countries can boast better or more very good recent designs.

Ciao

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I'm sure that some of the British architects who lurk here will be able to give authoritative answers. We do have new courses which get worldwide recognition such as Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart, but very few of the high end developments in this country have been designed by natives.

I think that golf taste in this country is about 20 years behind the Americans. We see US and European Tour venues on our televisions and those who aspire to having a golf course built are influenced by what they see. They do not see classic links or heathland courses, but a diet of lakes, waterfalls, fancy mowing patterns and expansive bunkers. The developers set the tone, not the architects.

Much UK architectural work is on low budgets. Sites available for developing golf courses are very limited in these overcrowded islands and many are downright boring sites. There isn't the budget to do a Kingsbarns with its earthmoving and sand shifting.

I don't know much of the UK architects' work in continental Europe, but what little I have seen has suggested that their brief has been to construct an 'American-style' course. If you are going to attract tourists you have to give them what they want.

Until the golfing taste of average British golfers is changed by education we will continue to see that kind of design and construction.

[Mark Pearce]

Crail Craighead is a good example of good work on a low budget and, like many of the examples quoted, was designed by one of the very same honest young upstarts (in this case Hanse) that, according to David's premise, we weren't willing to allow to run amok.  I've only played it once but the Carrick at Loch Lomond has it's highlights (and some lowlights, it has to be said).

There was some horrible stuff done over here in the 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s.  On the other thread I referred to the monstrously inept Hunting Course at Slaley Hall.  The new Moor Allerton courses (27 holes I believe) is a poster child for not letting US architects loose over here without serious thought, the Belfry has few fans, there are many more.

For every marvelous example of the new Golden Age built in the US or Australia, isn't it possible to find a larger number of dull or just plain bad designs?  For every Clayton isn't there a Thompson, Perret and Lobb?

[Melvyn Morrow]

We are not aspiring very high these days if we think that the 1995-2010 was the Second Golden Age

Let’s look at what was built in terms of actual good GCA with the emphases on design related to playing the game of Golf not decorative or what may or may not be sustainable but at the very heart of the process of playing the game of Golf.

I see no coming and certainly nothing like a bronze age let alone Golden. But then that’s just my humble opinion.

Melvyn

[Mark Pearce]

We are not aspiring very high these days if we think that the 1995-2010 was the Second Golden Age

Let’s look at what was built in terms of actual good GCA with the emphases on design related to playing the game of Golf not decorative or what may or may not be sustainable but at the very heart of the process of playing the game of Golf.

I see no coming and certainly nothing like a bronze age let alone Golden. But then that’s just my humble opinion.

Melvyn

Melvyn,

How many of the courses referred to in this thread have you actually played?  What was your impression of them?  How did they fall short of the standards of the courses from the first Golden Age?

[BCrosby]

My guess is that the there was no UK parallel with the explosion in the US of golf-centric residential real estate development during the period. Which meant that there was much less money for new courses, new architects, etc. in the UK.

Bob

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mark

Sorry, did not realise that because I have difficulty walking that I am not entitled to an opinion.

While the best way to judge a course is to play it, but then again the only way to play golf is to walk when doing so. Having said that millions do not believe in walking and ride at every opportunity irrespective if they need to or not due to medical reasons.

GCA is also very visual and a golfer with years of experience may well be able to understand the course, certainly one who has always walked and perhaps noticed the design intent from a rather young age.

Yet this site, for all its so call interest in GCA, seems to know rather sweet FA about design, don't believe me then look to your course listings you guys keep debating. Moan that some clubs are wrongly positioned yet I have from the start questioned these listing as irrelevant to GCA because they are Marketing tools based upon the lowest common denominator a proportional representation voting system that is flawed before it starts. 

No I have not played most of them and certainly not over the last 3 years as I have enough difficulty walking from the car to the clubhouse let alone around the course. Yet have been able to notice the fake and decorative side of modern design, which IMHO demeans the art of design.

Melvyn

[Mark Bourgeois]

David,

It sounds like you are referring to quality not quantity. As for quantity, I am not sure about 1995-2010 but Robert Price refers to 1980-2001 as Scotland's "second golf boom."

As for quality, I am with the posters who write there have been some very good courses built. (Don't forget Donald Steel's courses at Rye, Turnberry, and Woodhall Spa.)

Instead of simply lining up the courses side by side at a minimum I think you should adjust for population differences between the countries.

And let's not forget, the first golf boom came 1880-1909. That explosion took a lot of prime spots.

[Mark Pearce]

Melvyn,

I'm sorry but that response is just bullshit.  Either you've seen these courses or you haven't.  It's abundantly clear that you haven't.  Despite that you feel justified in lumping them all together and judging them.  You can knock the obsession with rankings all you like but your obsession with OTM and his contemporaries but your contempt for anything modern, despite never having seen it is more absurd.  As to complaints about the "fake and decorative" elements of modern design, have you played or seen Huntercombe?  Or Kington?  Or Royal Mid-Surrey?  Or Lawsonia Links?  Or Yale?  Or Cypress Point?

Of course you are entitled to an opinion.  On some issues it's clear that your opinion is of very real value.  Your opinion on modern architecture is one you are entitled to hold and one I am entitled to treat with disdain.

[Mike Sweeney]

Or am I completely off base? If so, what do you think are the reasons why few significant courses and few significant restorations were completed in the post modern era?  Lack of money?  Lack of Land?  Gypsies?

Donald Steel & Co has done the renovation of Enniscrone, so that it now has 18 "championship" holes and 9 "walk in the park" style third nine. I never played the before but combined with the new clubhouse, which is mainly functional, it a huge win for the town and the club.

Many are traveling to the Northwest now to see the "real" Ireland as I just got an email from a GCAer the other day. The question is will they go too far? I have not see the new 18 hole or the new hotel at the new 18 hole. I am told the hole is better but the hotel is more well American.

Sean Arble, the famous Dead Guy reviewer, is a fan of Enniscrone, so we have that going for us in the second Golden Era in Ireland!

[David_Elvins]

David,

It sounds like you are referring to quality not quantity. As for quantity, I am not sure about 1995-2010 but Robert Price refers to 1980-2001 as Scotland's "second golf boom."

Thanks Mark, that is one of the things I am getting at.  There does not seem to be a recent course in the UK that matches the reputation of Cape Kidnappers, Barnbougle Dunes, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, or Friars Heads.  What happenned at the pointy end?

Brian,

Thanks for your comments on Sunningdale.  That is another area that interestes me.  The restoration and renovation work at places like pasatiempo, LA North, Cal Club, etc has been exceptional.  The work on old Donald Ross and Raynor courses has been prolific.  What are some more examples of courses that have done good renovation/restoration work in the UK.

[David_Elvins]

Mike,

I deliberatley left Ireland out of the equation because they seem to have been more progressive. 

What are peoples views on development in Ireland compared to Great Britain.

[Mark Pearce]

David,

It sounds like you are referring to quality not quantity. As for quantity, I am not sure about 1995-2010 but Robert Price refers to 1980-2001 as Scotland's "second golf boom."

Thanks Mark, that is one of the things I am getting at.  There does not seem to be a recent course in the UK that matches the reputation of Cape Kidnappers, Barnbougle Dunes, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, or Friars Heads.  What happenned at the pointy end?

Australia and the US are big countries.  With plenty of great sites available.  I suspect there are almost no great sites left in the UK and those that are left would be (next to) impossible to get planning permission.  Perhaps Trump Aberdeen is such a site.  Let's see what gets built there.

[David_Elvins]

What did they achieve? What changes took place as a result of their complaints?

I am not sure what they achieved directly but I thought they were representative of the frank, honest, critical and passionate approach to architecture that tends to go along with a lot of great creative movements.  

David: Please could you nominate some poor work from the past 15 years in GB&I that offsets the good, well-received work done at Dornoch, Castle Stuart, Kingsbarns, Dundonald, The Castle Course, Crail, Renaissance Club, Loch Lomond, Bearwood Lakes etc?

Also, is it possible that in reference to your comments about Australia, the very best courses in GB&I haven't been adversely affected by modern changes as much as in Australia, where many on the Sandbelt and NSWGC for starters have seen regrettable changes made, so there is less to criticise?

As you know, this thread is a bit cheaky as my golfing experience in Britain is restricted to a walk around St Andrews and a visit to the car park at Royal St George's  (St Andrews is a  10 IMO, the car park at RSG perhaps a  9).  


As mentioned in m previous post, I am intereted to hear your views on whether you think there has been a truly world class course of international significance created in GB inthe last 15 years.  

As a follow up, how would you match up the half dozen courses listed by Sean with the top half dozen new courses in Australia.  

[Mark Bourgeois]

David,

As Mark notes unlike the US and Oz there's not a lot of back-of-beyond left in the UK.

Even so, I'm not sure I agree with your premise -- especially if you're going to nominate just one course from a country as w Barny and Kidnappers.

I could see some arguing for Kingsbarns as equal of Barny and better than Kid.

Mark

[Ally Mcintosh]

There does not seem to be a recent course in the UK that matches the reputation of Cape Kidnappers, Barnbougle Dunes, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, or Friars Heads.  

These 5 courses are by two different design firms... It could be that:

1. These two design firms are indeed ahead of the current pack
2. They consistently get the best sites to work with (along with clients that give them an element of free reign)
3. You (and others) are star struck by certain names and styles of golf course

I suspect the answer lies in a mix of all three...

Mike,

I deliberatley left Ireland out of the equation because they seem to have been more progressive.  

What are peoples views on development in Ireland compared to Great Britain.

I'd be interested in hearing why you think Ireland has been more progressive than Britain... I am closely familiar with both areas and disagree with you... Ireland has certainly had the money and quantity but in the last twenty years I believe it to have missed a golden opportunity...

That's not to say there haven't been plenty of good to great courses developed... But perhaps a few of them just could have been better...

[David_Elvins]

David,

As Mark notes unlike the US and Oz there's not a lot of back-of-beyond left in the UK.

What is the west coast of Scotland like?

I could see some arguing for Kingsbarns as equal of Barny and better than Kid.

I would be interested to see if anyone could do this.  

[Sean_A]

Mike,

I deliberatley left Ireland out of the equation because they seem to have been more progressive. 

What are peoples views on development in Ireland compared to Great Britain.

David

I think Ireland has done exceptionally well despite the high profile inland courses which often get panned.  

Carne
Enniscrone
Doonbeg
Donegal
TEC
Rosapenna
Old Head
Dooks

There may not be a Pac Dunes, Ballyneal or Barnbougle in GB&I, but some of that is down to main mover and shaker being American and in the main working on American soil.  Some of it is down to lack of viable good sites.  Some of it is down to trying to compete in a tough market.  Arguably, the highest concentration of very good to great courses relative to land mass is in GB&I.  That is a tough neighbourhood to do business in.  

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

David,

As Mark notes unlike the US and Oz there's not a lot of back-of-beyond left in the UK.

What is the west coast of Scotland like?

Lovely.  Very, very beautiful.  And untouchable.

[Adam Lawrence]

David,

As Mark notes unlike the US and Oz there's not a lot of back-of-beyond left in the UK.

What is the west coast of Scotland like?

 
[/quote]

Mostly, though not exclusively, extremely rocky and extremely wet.

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

Do you think those Irish courses you list are better than, worse than or about the same as (in quality) the UK courses listed in this thread?

[Mark Bourgeois]

NW coast of Scotland is where the Stevensons did a decent lighthouse business.

I've played just one of the three so it can't be me.

Are you saying few who've played Kid and King would say King is the better course?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mark

For intelligent men you guys keep knocking your head against a brick wall, for no rear purpose or acknowledgement than one man’s meat may always be another’s poison.

As for playing the courses in GB, you just keep jumping to conclusions that I have never played any, yet in my 60 years plus I have seen the whole of GB with exception of The Isle of Man. As for overseas I have has the privilege of playing and experiencing courses in very hot and hot and humid countries, never considering riding as that was never an option nor come to that the way to play gol0f, be in in India, Africa, South America or even little Jamaica, but I have experienced the game in its raw state and survived many an 18 rounds, yet I do not remember ever calling it a day after 9 Holes, after all I was a golfer, man and boy. 

You have never had the pleasure of meeting me and quite frankly know very little about me.  As for your knowledge re GCA, I see clearly that like many others you just play and dabble with the idea of GCA otherwise your post would reflect some sign or at the very least commitment to improve that which you may consider wrong. Right or wrong I voice my opinion and do so with some knowledge and experience. 

As for the 19th Century designers, they lead the way, through their endeavours we have the game of Golf, open to the general public at large, on private and public golf courses. You are reaping the rewards of their hard work, I for one see that through the history of the game and by the many clubs and courses I have had the privilege to have played and been in contact with over the years. Mark you are player, so go and enjoy your game. Being in the industry that relates to law and justice, perhaps you should know the need for proof to sustain your argument – innocent until proven guilty – right. Or perhaps like GCA you are not really committed to that either.

Whatever rocks you boat Mark, whatever

Melvyn