Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday

[David_Elvins]

There are only three European courses on this thread, all in Scotland and all designed and financed by Americans... Is that a true reflection or a biased group of voters?....

It is most likely a reflection on how the second Golden Age of Golf Course Design completely missed Great Britain. 

The reasons are probably many, but you only have to look at the way that mediocre and bad architecture is too often accepted, excused, and politely ignored by the British posters on this site to realise that the British golfing community probably wasn't ready hand over their design jobs to a bunch of honest young upstarts.

[Mike Benham]

This voting process reminds me of Florida 2000 ...

Signed,

Chad

[Adam Clayman]

The nomination process was open to all, I don't recall thier being limitations on location, just that it had to be built in 1995 or after.

I'm guessing when I finally make that trip to the UK there will be very few courses, if any, that I'll be jonesing to play built post-1995.

If this is true why is Sand Hills included?

[Kevin Pallier]

Kev,

Probably the same reason that sebonac only gets one star, the greatness of Old MacDonald is muted by the restrictions associated with Doak having to accept the input of others.  

I'm sure there is some truth to that.  On both courses, there are a couple of things that I wasn't 100% happy with, but deferred to others; and when you are voting on the top ten courses of the last 15-20 years, it doesn't take many of those to put one out of the top ten.

On the other hand, I had no qualms about Barnbougle Dunes or St. Andrews Beach, which are also collaborations [with Mike Clayton]. 

In the end, Sebonack is just too hard for my tastes, and Old Macdonald, I just haven't played enough to be comfortable putting in the top ten.  [I have not been back to play since opening day.]

I would think most people would be put off by how many courses of my own I've rated highly, instead of thinking I'm selling myself short.  The only two courses where my own ratings might be above the consensus are Rock Creek, which I feel strongly about, and Cape Kidnappers, which I think some people sell short because they enjoy the views and miss the architecture, and because there is a general bias in favor of links courses.

Tom

I think you are selling OM short - for mine it's at the least a 2 star (personally I have it as a 3).

Point in case - you have it at the same rating as Bandon Dunes and OM aint no Bandon Dunes !!

[Sean_A]

George, there's a difference between favoring a course because of a positive experience or feeling and favoring a course to curry favor from its members or architects.

I'll fully admit my votes may be subject to the former.  JK suggested all votes would be subject to the latter.  

  Naaaaaaah, JK just knows himself well.

In the end, most of these rankings are pretty meaningless, to me anyway. I tend to side with my friend Ed Getka, who says he looks for rankings, ratings, etc, among golfers that he knows have similar interests to himself, knowing he will get a better result. That's why I think it makes more sense for each person to post individual ballots, lists, etc, than to compile aggregate rankings.

George

That exactly how I use rankings and why I prefer lists of favourites over best.  Best of lists tend to dredge up the same ole courses.  I am always on the lookout for something unusual and there are a handful of guys on this site I pay attention to in these matters.

David E

I don't believe for NY minute that the second Golden Age skipped GB&I.  There are many new courses which are highly thought of.  The big problem is what they are competing against often times as very near neighbours.  In a way I am surprised courses like Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart and TEC are thought of as highly as they are.  For the US, the idea of f&f is just taking hold and most of the newer breed of top courses sell GB&I conditions/comparisons quite hard.  Link this with in many cases posh surroundings and it isn't surprising that folks are falling over backwards to play these courses.   

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

you only have to look at the way that mediocre and bad architecture is too often accepted, excused, and politely ignored by the British posters on this site

If you want to start a fight you should give us some of your reasons for a statement like this (some examples, for instance) so that we can get into the argument.  Otherwise you just come across like just another bitter Aussie .

[Ally Mcintosh]

Deleted... Decided there was no point causing argument...

[Brett_Morrissy]

Posted by: Ally Mcintosh  
Insert QuoteDeleted... Decided there was no point causing argument...
Posted on: Yesterday at 21:46:00Posted by: Mark Pearce  
Insert Quote
Quote from: David_Elvins on Yesterday at 16:40:12you only have to look at the way that mediocre and bad architecture is too often accepted, excused, and politely ignored by the British posters on this site
If you want to start a fight you should give us some of your reasons for a statement like this (some examples, for instance) so that we can get into the argument.  Otherwise you just come across like just another bitter Aussie .

leaving that to Mark, Ally?

Mark not sure if you will need a lot of tar or just little tar for all us 'bitter Aussies' - funny it is usually the Pom's that come out with that kind of talk.

PS: No matter what - I cannot get the quoting thing working properly on my set up.

[David_Elvins]

I think you are selling OM short - for mine it's at the least a 2 star (personally I have it as a 3).

Kev,

I had OM at one star too but it was with some trepidation. I don't think there is a course I have understood less after playing it twice and walking it once, as Old MacDonald.  The caddies I talked to ddn't feel they understood the course either.  

it is, IMO, an extremely hard course to rate, and I think that people's views on it will fluctuate a fair bit over the next few years.  One other thing is that I would definitely like to see how the vegetation on the course settles in over the next few years before even considering giving it 3 stars.  It is far from perfect at the moment.  

I a gree with you though, it is a better course than bandon dunes.  

[Mark Pearce]

Brett,

If you knew my posting history (and my friendliness with a large number of Aussies) you'd have understyood that the "bitter Aussies" comment was more than a little tongue in cheek.  Sadly, though, this medium frequently doesn't allow for the subtleties of face to face banter, so I've inserted a smiley to help.  I'd still like to read David's justification for his comment, though.....

[David_Elvins]

Deleted... Decided there was no point causing argument...

I think you are supporting my point Ally, you fellows are just too damn polite for your own good sometimes.

Mark,
if you can find a post where you attack any of the Hawtrees with the same vigour you showed in that post, I will withdraw my comment.

Sean,
Thanks for the post.  

Rather than derail this thread, I will start a new one and see if people are interested in the topic.  

[Brett_Morrissy]

***  One of the very best courses in the world, modern or old
**    One of the top ten modern courses, if you had played all of those on the ballot
*     A very good course, but probably not in the top ten overall
0     Not in the same league with the others on this ballot


Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
** Ballyneal
* Bandon Dunes
*** Bandon Trails
*** Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

Cal Club
Calusa Pines
** Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay
Colorado Golf Club
Dallas National
Diamante
Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills

Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
Hidden Creek
0 - Kauri Cliffs
* Kingsbarns
Kingsley Club
Kinloch (N.Z.)
Kinloch (Va.)
** Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
*** Old Macdonald
Old Sandwich
** Pacific Dunes
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
*** Sand Hills
Sebonack
* St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
Whistling Straits (Straits)
Wild Horse
Wine Valley
Wolf Point

* The Links at Kennedy Bay
* National Moonah
both courses I think should have made this list - but no the top ten

[Mark Pearce]

David,

Not sure the scope of your new thread (looking forward to it, though) so I'll just say here that whilst I can't point to me attacking the Hawtrees (mostly due to not having consciously played much of their stuff) I have frequently and very clearly made clear my opinion of the work done at, say, Slaley Hall by Dave Thomas.  I have also been a vocal critic (as have several others) of the abominable new Moor Allerton course.  We may be more polite than you guys and occasionally our criticism may be too subtle for our antipodean cousins but I think we're quite willing to criticise crap architecture for what it is.

[Jim Franklin]

Kev,

Probably the same reason that sebonac only gets one star, the greatness of Old MacDonald is muted by the restrictions associated with Doak having to accept the input of others.  

I'm sure there is some truth to that.  On both courses, there are a couple of things that I wasn't 100% happy with, but deferred to others; and when you are voting on the top ten courses of the last 15-20 years, it doesn't take many of those to put one out of the top ten.

On the other hand, I had no qualms about Barnbougle Dunes or St. Andrews Beach, which are also collaborations [with Mike Clayton]. 

In the end, Sebonack is just too hard for my tastes, and Old Macdonald, I just haven't played enough to be comfortable putting in the top ten.  [I have not been back to play since opening day.]

I would think most people would be put off by how many courses of my own I've rated highly, instead of thinking I'm selling myself short.  The only two courses where my own ratings might be above the consensus are Rock Creek, which I feel strongly about, and Cape Kidnappers, which I think some people sell short because they enjoy the views and miss the architecture, and because there is a general bias in favor of links courses.

Rock Creek is still #1 in my book.

[John Kavanaugh]

George, there's a difference between favoring a course because of a positive experience or feeling and favoring a course to curry favor from its members or architects.

I'll fully admit my votes may be subject to the former.  JK suggested all votes would be subject to the latter. 

Sven,

I love that name, sometimes I roll play with my wife as Sven the Swedish massage artist.  That aside, I do not give architects and courses a pass who have been kind to me to curry favor.  I do it because I find it rude to do anything otherwise.

Earlier in this thread I was going to post following Jim Lewis about how I find him a perfect model of a rater who I do believe ignores whatever biases he may hold.  Then I remembered how kind he was to me during my Pinehurst visit and figured that I probably just like the guy.  I am bothered at how the Forest Creek complex has been diluted rating wise when it added an even better course.  The very image a Jim taking these recently added Golfweek raters around the Pinehurst area amuses me.  He earned his Crusty moniker.

[Bill_McBride]

This voting process reminds me of Florida 2000 ...

Signed,

Chad

How are they hangin', Chad?

[Jim Colton]

I realize it's a pipe dream, but I'd like to get at least 5 votes for every course before sharing the results. We don't have a single vote from Nine Bridges.

http://www.dunkladder.com/sort2.html

Courses with less than 10 votes:

Wine Valley   9
Ballyhack   9
Cape Kidnappers   8
Boston Golf Club   7
Calusa Pines   7
Castle Stuart   6
The Renaissance Club   6
Kauri Cliffs   6
Wolf Point   5
Sagebrush   5
Gozzer Ranch   5
Diamante   4
Quarry at Giant's Ridge   4
Alotian Club   3
Pinnacle Point (S Afr)   3
Sutton Bay   3
Nanea   2
Ellerston   1
Kinloch (NZ)   1
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal   1
Nine Bridges   0

[Kalen Braley]

The nomination process was open to all, I don't recall thier being limitations on location, just that it had to be built in 1995 or after.

I'm guessing when I finally make that trip to the UK there will be very few courses, if any, that I'll be jonesing to play built post-1995.

If this is true why is Sand Hills included?

http://www.sandhillsgolfshop.com/About_SHGC.html

Heavy spring and summer rains during construction delayed the opening date until late June 1995

P.S.  I see now what caused the confusion.  In my original statement I meant to say opened for play in 1995 or later...not built in 95 or later.

[Darren Gloster]

Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
**Ballyneal
*Bandon Dunes
**Bandon Trails
***Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

Cal Club
Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay
Colorado Golf Club
Dallas National
Diamante
Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills

Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
Hidden Creek
Kauri Cliffs
Kingsbarns
Kingsley Club
Kinloch (N.Z.)
Kinloch (Va.)
**Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
**Old Macdonald
Old Sandwich
***Pacific Dunes
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
***Sand Hills
Sebonack
*St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
*Whistling Straits (Straits)
Wild Horse
Wine Valley
Wolf Point

[Kevin Pallier]

I think you are selling OM short - for mine it's at the least a 2 star (personally I have it as a 3).

Kev,

I had OM at one star too but it was with some trepidation. I don't think there is a course I have understood less after playing it twice and walking it once, as Old MacDonald.  The caddies I talked to ddn't feel they understood the course either.  

it is, IMO, an extremely hard course to rate, and I think that people's views on it will fluctuate a fair bit over the next few years.  One other thing is that I would definitely like to see how the vegetation on the course settles in over the next few years before even considering giving it 3 stars.  It is far from perfect at the moment.  

David

It's unlike you to not have a firm opinion on a course after one viewing let alone three 

What areas do you think it is deficient in at present ?

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

I love that name, sometimes I roll play with my wife as Sven the Swedish massage artist. 

Thankfully, I'm Norwegian.

[Colin Macqueen]

John K,

You say "sometimes I roll play with my wife .......".  Do you mean role play?  No matter.... the imagery evoked is exquisite in either case!

Cheers Colin

[David_Elvins]

David
It's unlike you to not have a firm opinion on a course after one viewing let alone three 
What areas do you think it is deficient in at present ?

Kev,

Compared to most *** courses it is probably deficient in spectacular views and great vegetation management. 

the big issue for me, though, is playability.  It is not that there are obvious issues with the playability of the course, it is just really hard to work out how the course works, from a playability point of view.  the best courses in the world have great risk/reward equations that are well balanced.  After a year of caddying at old MacDonald, the caddies I spoke to were still alrgely clueless as to how these equations worked or the best way to tackle them. 
i am not sayingthat they are bad, just that they will take a long time to figure out.  Don't forget alos, how much the golf holes change when the pin positions are moved on those huge greens.  Can you really assess how the holes play to a variety of wildly different pin positions after 2-3 rounds.  You might need 2-3 rounds of play to each pin position to work out what is going on on that course. 

[Tom_Doak]

bump:  We'll end the voting on Sunday.  65-70 ballots are in, I thought we'd have more so I haven't closed the polls yet.

[Jim Franklin]

Did Shivas vote?