Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday

[Tom_Doak]

NOTE:  Jim Colton has received 65-70 ballots for the vote so far.  We'll call it closed at noon on Sunday.  I was hoping we would get up to 100 votes, so anyone who hasn't voted yet should get to the polls ... just think what happened the last time you didn't vote for president. 

Okay, by popular demand, this is the official voting thread for the top post-modern courses, opened since 1995.

To begin, copy and paste the ballot below for your response.  Then, add ratings for each of the courses you have played, as I will do in the next post.  Please do it as I have ... place any stars (or a 0 if you have played the course and wouldn't give it any stars) BEFORE the name, so it's easy to distinguish which courses you've played and which you haven't.

The grading scale is the Michelin three-star system:

***  One of the very best courses in the world, modern or old
**    One of the top ten modern courses, if you had played all of those on the ballot
*     A very good course, but probably not in the top ten overall
0     Not in the same league with the others on this ballot

IMPORTANT NOTE:  This thread is only for the purpose of making your vote public.  To actually cast a vote, you need to go to the following link, drag the names of the courses you've played into the appropriate box (0 to 3 stars), put them in order if you want, and email the results to Jim Colton for compilation.  Thanks to Jim for setting up the data crunch and for keeping me out of that part.  The voting link is to be found at

  http://www.dunkladder.com/sort2.html


There are actually 52 courses on the ballot, because there are a couple I forgot to include as promised before.  Here they are:


Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
Ballyneal
Bandon Dunes
Bandon Trails
Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

Cal Club
Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay
Colorado Golf Club
Dallas National
Diamante
Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills

Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
Hidden Creek
Kauri Cliffs
Kingsbarns
Kingsley Club
Kinloch (N.Z.)
Kinloch (Va.)
Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
Old Macdonald
Old Sandwich
Pacific Dunes
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
Sand Hills
Sebonack
St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
Whistling Straits (Straits)
Wild Horse
Wine Valley
Wolf Point

[Tom_Doak]

My own vote.  I'm only voting on the courses I've actually played, which is a shame, as I've seen 33 of them overall, but I can only vote on 22 I've played.

Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
** Ballyneal
* Bandon Dunes
* Bandon Trails
*** Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
0 Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

* Cal Club
Calusa Pines
** Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay
Colorado Golf Club
Dallas National
Diamante
Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills

** Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
Hidden Creek
0 Kauri Cliffs
* Kingsbarns
* Kingsley Club
Kinloch (N.Z.)
Kinloch (Va.)
* Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
* Old Macdonald
* Old Sandwich
*** Pacific Dunes
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
0 The Renaissance Club
** Rock Creek
* Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
*** Sand Hills
* Sebonack
* St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
Whistling Straits (Straits)
* Wild Horse
Wine Valley
Wolf Point

[Kalen Braley]

Just a word of caution when you use the link.

Make sure your course is dropped in the correct box.  I noticed that sometimes the mouse doesn't always hover over the intended part of the webpage before you make the "drop".

I'm excited to see the results.

Thanks Tom and Jim for putting this together!

[Mark Bourgeois]

I'm really looking forward to seeing the results as well and thanks to Tom and Jim for putting in the effort.

That said, posting votes on this thread while the ballot is open will have a norming effect on the group, aka the "Keynesian Beauty Pageant" problem. But it's all in good fun, I guess. Not like we're voting for the next X Factor winner.

[Jim Jackson]

Just a point of clarification:  is there a threshold number of these courses to have played before one can effectively vote ? i.e. <5, <10, etc?  I would think it would take at least 5 to render a reliable vote.

[Jason Topp]

I screwed up Rustic Canyon.  I gave it a zero when I meant to give it one star.

[Kalen Braley]

I screwed up Rustic Canyon.  I gave it a zero when I meant to give it one star.

Don't think its going to matter either way!!   

[Jim Colton]

Just a reminder, you can sort and rank courses within each of the boxes in you want to get real specific. I can use the data in both formats. I will assume that you only ranked into groups unless you tell me otherwise.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Tom - why not post the ones you haven't played?
I did for the 2 where I saw the whole course.

Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
Ballyneal
* Bandon Dunes
* Bandon Trails
Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
* Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

Cal Club
* Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay
Colorado Golf Club
* Dallas National
Diamante
Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills

*** Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
* Hidden Creek
Kauri Cliffs
* Kingsbarns
Kingsley Club
Kinloch (N.Z.)
0 Kinloch (Va.)
Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
Old Macdonald
Old Sandwich
*** Pacific Dunes
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
* Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
Sand Hills
* Sebonack
St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
* Whistling Straits (Straits)
Wild Horse
Wine Valley
** Wolf Point

[Ronald Montesano]

Why are two high-profile architects making their voting decisions quite publicly apparent on this thread?

[Garland Bayley]

Why are two high-profile architects making their voting decisions quite publicly apparent on this thread?

What two high-profile architects?

Why are you posting provocative stuff instead of voting as the thread asks?

Kneel knave!

[Scott Warren]

Strange.

I see Ellerston and Oitavos Dunes in there, which IIRC were raised by one person - who hasn't played either - and yet my request for The Lakes to be included if Cal Club was (and it was) fell on deaf ears...

Nine Renaissance Golf Design courses in the list. I'll guess that the top 10 features six of them.

[Mark Johnson]

my votes... please dont hate me Tom.

I think I like Kinloch and Bandon Trails a bit more than most and Pac Dunes and CB a lit less than most.



*** - absolutely at the top of the list, or tied for it [don't use this for more than 5 courses]

Bandon Trails
Sebonack
Old Macdonald

** - you think this would be a top ten modern course, if you had seen them all

Erin Hills
Whistling Straits (Straits)
Bandon Dunes
Kinloch (VA)
* - noteworthy, but not likely among the top ten overall

Quarry at Giant's Ridge
Pacific Dunes
Arcadia Bluffs
Chambers Bay
0 - not in the same league as the rest

Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Bayonne
Dallas National

[Bill_McBride]

    Alotian
0  Arcadia Bluffs
    Ballyhack
*** Ballyneal
*  Bandon Dunes
*  Bandon Trails
   Barnbougle Dunes
   Bayonne
* Black Mesa
   Boston G.C.

   Cal Club (MODERN VERSION)
   Calusa Pines
   Cape Kidnappers
   Castle Stuart
   Chambers Bay
   Colorado Golf Club
   Dallas National
   Diamante
   Dismal River I
   Ellerston
   Erin Hills

** Friars Head
    Gozzer Ranch
    Hidden Creek
    Kauri Cliffs
    Kingsbarns
** Kingsley Club
    Kinloch (N.Z.)
    Kinloch (Va.)
    Lost Farm
*  Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
    Nanea

    Nine Bridges, Korea
    Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
** Old Macdonald
    Old Sandwich
*** Pacific Dunes
    Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
    Quarry at Giant's Ridge
    The Renaissance Club
    Rock Creek
*  Rustic Canyon

    Sagebrush
    Sand Hills
    Sebonack
    St. Andrews Beach
    Sutton Bay
    Victoria National
    Whistling Straits (Straits)
    Wild Horse
    Wine Valley
*** Wolf Point

[Brad Isaacs]

Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
Ballyneal ***
Bandon Dunes**
Bandon Trails*
Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
Black Mesa*
Boston G.C.

Cal Club*
Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay*
Colorado Golf Club**
Dallas National*
Diamante
Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills

Friars Head**
Gozzer Ranch*
Hidden Creek*
Kauri Cliffs
Kingsbarns**
Kingsley Club
Kinloch (N.Z.)
Kinloch (Va.)
Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)***
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
Old Macdonald**
Old Sandwich
Pacific Dunes***
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club*
Rock Creek**
Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
Sand Hills***
Sebonack**
St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay*
Victoria National**
Whistling Straits (Straits)**
Wild Horse*
Wine Valley*
Wolf Point

I need to get busy and play more of these.  I left room for 1 more 3 * that I have not played yet.

[Anthony Fowler]

Tom, you've only rated 7 courses with 2 or 3 stars.  By your definition, are you saying that there are three more courses on the list that you haven't played that you would prefer to all your 1 star courses?  I'd be really surprised if that's the case.  Sticking with your own definition, I think you need to give out a few more 2 star ratings.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, you've only rated 7 courses with 2 or 3 stars.  By your definition, are you saying that there are three more courses on the list that you haven't played that you would prefer to all your 1 star courses?  I'd be really surprised if that's the case.  Sticking with your own definition, I think you need to give out a few more 2 star ratings.

Anthony:

I've seen 33 of the 52 courses, or slightly less than 2/3.  So why should I assume I've seen more than 7 of the top 10? 

And why would I give a couple of other courses two stars if I don't think they are as good as the ones in my ** list?

[Mark Johnson]

Tom,

out of curiousity,  why didn't primland make the list here?

Not saying it would make top ten, but I can name several courses here which i would rate well below it.

[Sean Leary]

Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
Ballyneal ***
Bandon Dunes**
Bandon Trails*
Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
Black Mesa**
Boston G.C.

Cal Club*
Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay*
Colorado Golf Club**
Dallas National*
Diamante
Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills

Friars Head**
Gozzer Ranch*
Hidden Creek*
Kauri Cliffs
Kingsbarns**
Kingsley Club
Kinloch (N.Z.)
Kinloch (Va.)
Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)***
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
Old Macdonald**
Old Sandwich
Pacific Dunes***
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club*
Rock Creek**
Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
Sand Hills***
Sebonack**
St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay*
Victoria National**
Whistling Straits (Straits)**
Wild Horse*
Wine Valley*
Wolf Point

I need to get busy and play more of these.  I left room for 1 more 3 * that I have not played yet.

You don't have to have 5  3* courses, that is just the most. You also have given out 14 2* or higher courses and 2* is supposed to be Top 10 moderns seen or unseen  so you are already 4 over and haven't seen a lot of courses on the list.

I guess I view 3* as Top 10 or 15 in the World. Am I wrong on that?

It seems like people are giving out really high scores and this ranking has the exact same faults as the magazine rankings that get shredded on here.

[Don_Mahaffey]

   
   


Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
Ballyneal***
Bandon Dunes*
Bandon Trails**
Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

Cal Club
Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay
Colorado Golf Club
Dallas National*
Diamante
Dismal River I*
Ellerston
Erin Hills

Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
Hidden Creek
Kauri Cliffs
Kingsbarns
Kingsley Club***
Kinloch (N.Z.)
Kinloch (Va.)
Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
Old Macdonald
Old Sandwich
Pacific Dunes***
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon**

Sagebrush
Sand Hills***
Sebonack
St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
Whistling Straits (Straits)
Wild Horse**
Wine Valley
Wolf Point***

[Sean Leary]

Wolf Point is going to be number 1 as the only 4 people who have played it are all voting here..

[Anthony Fowler]

I've seen 33 of the 52 courses, or slightly less than 2/3.  So why should I assume I've seen more than 7 of the top 10? 

Tom, you know you haven't seen a random 2/3 of those courses.  You have actively sought out (or built) the courses that you think you would like.  Looking at the list, I would be shocked if there were 3 courses that you haven't played that you would like better than all your 1 star courses.

And why would I give a couple of other courses two stars if I don't think they are as good as the ones in my ** list?

I understand what you're trying to do with the star system, but when you define one of the categories as "top 10," we should hold you to your word.  As Sean pointed out, others are being too generous with their stars (which is probably why you provided the top 10 guideline), and you're being too stingy.

Maybe we could redefine the 2 star category to better fit the way that you're thinking about it.  "2-star course are of exceptional quality but not quite 'the very best.'  Even if you played every course on the list, you're certain that this course would be in the top 10."    

[Don_Mahaffey]

Wolf Point is going to be number 1 as the only 4 people who have played it are all voting here..

How many times can I vote?

[Ally Mcintosh]

There are only three European courses on this thread, all in Scotland and all designed and financed by Americans... Is that a true reflection or a biased group of voters?....

I don't know because I haven't seen enough modern courses on the list to judge...

I'm sure Adam could throw out a few that at least may have been worthy of consideration... How good is Bundersland? What about Rosapenna Sandy Hills?... Carne opened for play in 1995... Is Thracian Cliffs a good course or just a good site?... Are Askernish and Mach Dunes not worth a thought?  Is this because they don't offer the whole service or are you telling me the courses aren't up to scratch?

[Scott Warren]

Ally,

Oitavos Dunes is on there also.

But yeah, a pretty US-centric list.