Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday

[Kyle Henderson]

Clear Creek deserves to be n the list, unless it's already considered NLE... 

[Carl Nichols]

Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
***Ballyneal
**Bandon Dunes
**Bandon Trails
Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

Cal Club
Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
**Chambers Bay
*Colorado Golf Club
Dallas National
Diamante
*Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills

***Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
**Hidden Creek
Kauri Cliffs
Kingsbarns
Kingsley Club
Kinloch (N.Z.)
**Kinloch (Va.)
Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
***Old Macdonald
Old Sandwich
***Pacific Dunes
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
***Sand Hills
Sebonack
St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
Whistling Straits (Straits)
**Wild Horse
Wine Valley
Wolf Point

I probably would have added Galloway National and Trump Bedminster to the list.  

Tom: Some day over drinks you will have to explain why you didn't give Old Mac ***.

Jerry:
You have 11 courses in your top 10.  

[Sven Nilsen]

I of course will not be voting and only post this because I believe it is as important to know who voted as it is to see who won the ballot.  The least we can do is post who votes and which clubs they are affiliated with in what capacity.

John,

Why not vote? Either:

1.  You joined clubs with inferior courses and you don't want any of the staff/members to see your honest opinion.

2.  You love your clubs' courses but don't have enough confidence in your homer opinion and don't want to appear as a shill.

Yes I know I gave my club ***.  But guess what,  I can only find 7 or 8 courses on the Golfweek Modern list that I honestly think have a good shot at being better and I didn't join just for the cherry chicken salad  ....

 I can not vote on anything without taking into consideration on what is in it for me.  

Your mistake here John is your assumption that no one else can deliver an unbiased opinion.  We are not all victims of your self-diagnosed affliction.

For your information, I have been invited by members to play two of the courses I starred.  But my rating of those courses in no way reflects a posturing to secure an invitation back.

[Mark Pearce]

Kalen,

I have played two of the courses on the list (one in the UK, one in the USA).  When I visit the States it may come as a surprise that most of the courses I'm interested in playing are pre-95 as well.  Indeed, I suspect my top 10 desirable US courses to play (discounting those I have already played) would not include any of these courses.  Doesn't mean they aren't great, though.

As to the suggestion (from Thomas) that Askernish wouldn't qualify, I suspect there's less of the "original" course at Askernish than there is at the Cal Club, but it's on the list.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

I have played two of the courses on the list (one in the UK, one in the USA).  When I visit the States it may come as a surprise that most of the courses I'm interested in playing are pre-95 as well.  Indeed, I suspect my top 10 desirable US courses to play (discounting those I have already played) would not include any of these courses.  Doesn't mean they aren't great, though.

As to the suggestion (from Thomas) that Askernish wouldn't qualify, I suspect there's less of the "original" course at Askernish than there is at the Cal Club, but it's on the list.

Mark,

Fair enough, there is indeed a huge amount of old classics to play in the states, no doubt about that.

Perhaps I suffer from some regional bias living out West in the US.  A large % of these new "mini-golden" age courses have been built out this way, and many of them are better than what we had previously, (San Fran area exluded), so I certainly am getting a lot more exposure to them as compared to someone living in Chicago or Florida.

[Jim Colton]

I have ballots tabulated from about 46 entries and the results are starting to take shape. As Tom mentioned, if you want your vote counted, then you need to go to the link, follow the instructions and cut and paste the results to me. I'm not going through this and the other thread to record what you posted.

http://www.dunkladder.com/sort2.html

[David Kelly]

Jud,

I am simply not a very good person.  I can not vote on anything without taking into consideration on what is in it for me.  Given the current state of the game and my uncanny ability to play anywhere, anytime I choose at any course in the world, whenever I write a dues or assessment check I vote in the positive in the strongest of terms.  I am not going to write a club a check and then pretend to be above my desire to not feel ripped off by voting another course higher.  I also have some strange shallow need, that I don't understand, to be liked and tend to like people or things that are nice to me in return.  Then comes the architects who I am affiliated with or have been kind to me in the past.  I'm going to give Kavanaugh, Nuzzo, Brauer, Crowley, Doak, Fazio, Coore, Richardson, Dye, Nicklaus, and even Shackelford (because his dad played for John Wooden) passes.  Sorry for whoever I missed.

Now back to my second sentence "I can not vote on anything without taking into consideration on what is in it for me." If I were given free golf and access to each of these 52 courses I would say to hell with bias and submit votes that protect my intellectual integrity.  ie: Sand Hills *** and so forth.  So please note:  There was a time in my life where I desired to be a rater and am not above the process if I get my taste for my efforts.

One other thing.  This process was not open to 1500 like minded golf fans.  It was open to people who choose to improve their status in the golf community through not only bragging about the courses they have played but enjoy flying the flag of intellectual elitism.  I'm sure the number is closer to 50.  I'm giving Doak a pass not only because I am now a member of one of his courses but because he has been flying that flag since he reluctantly enrolled at M.I.T.  I know he is good at math because he developed the formula of # of stars = value of a course/number of design credits.  How else could Old Mac get one star?

I count 17 uses of the word "I", 6 uses of "my", 4 uses of "me" and 3 uses of "I'm" in your post.  Nicely played, sir.

[John Kavanaugh]

David,

My post is about why I am not voting. I can't speak for the other 1450 posters who won't.

[Bruce Katona]

I am not voting as I haven't either played or visited the vast majority of them.

[jim_lewis]

I voted and I am a member of clubs that include 3 courses that were eligible to be nominated. None were, although two of them are superior to some of the courses on the list. I considered it to be inappropriate for me to nominate my own courses. Besides, I don't think either is a serious candidate for world top 100, Neither are most of the courses on the list that I have played.

[Tom_Doak]

The nominations were done here in the open over the past week.  I included every course that received two nominations as belonging in the top ten, and then added a few courses (including several international candidates) to get it up to an even fifty. 

I am sure there are other courses which someone or other thinks ought to be in the top ten ... anytime you start a new ranking such as this, the first vote is pretty wide open.  Once we have a list of ten, it will start to be accepted that perhaps your personal favorite is not really as good as the 9th or 10th best course in the list.  There will always be some holdouts, but I do not believe we've left out any course that was likely to make the top ten or fifteen.  If you want to write in a candidate, please be sure to tell us how many stars you would have given it, just in case we ever repeat this exercise.

[Carl Nichols]

But yeah, a pretty US-centric list.

Scott

Most "World" lists are.

I believe Kennedy Bay and National (Moonah) are better than some on the Top50 courses listed here.

I suspect there are a number of additional courses that could make a claim for Top 50 in the world since 1995, but I strongly doubt this list omits any course that has a serious shot at Top 10 during that period.  For example, Ocean Forest and Kiawah-Cassique -- both of which sneak into some top 100 lists -- could make an argument for being in the Top 50 since 1995, but I can't imagine anyone would argue they are Top 10.  And for that reason, I didn't try to nominate them. 

[George Pazin]

Your mistake here John is your assumption that no one else can deliver an unbiased opinion.  We are not all victims of your self-diagnosed affliction.

For your information, I have been invited by members to play two of the courses I starred.  But my rating of those courses in no way reflects a posturing to secure an invitation back.

That doesn't mean you - or anyone else - can deliver an unbiased opinion. Each of us has an opinion that is subject to biases, known or unknown.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I'd agree with your post.  After seeing so many quality courses up on that list, I'd be shocked if we left off a course that would make it into the top 20, much less top 10.

When the official results are posted up, the next 5 should be included....because I'm guessing 11-15 is going to be quite the list that will consist of courses that would likely make the wish list of most members of GCA.com.

[Carl Nichols]

But yeah, a pretty US-centric list.

Scott

Most "World" lists are.

I believe Kennedy Bay and National (Moonah) are better than some on the Top50 courses listed here.

I suspect there are a number of additional courses that could make a claim for Top 50 in the world since 1995, but I strongly doubt this list omits any course that has a serious shot at Top 10 during that period (which is what this thread is trying to establish).  For example, Ocean Forest and Kiawah-Cassique -- both of which sneak into some top 100 lists -- could make an argument for being in the Top 50 since 1995, but I can't imagine anyone would argue they are Top 10.  And for that reason, I didn't try to nominate them.  

[Sven Nilsen]

Your mistake here John is your assumption that no one else can deliver an unbiased opinion.  We are not all victims of your self-diagnosed affliction.

For your information, I have been invited by members to play two of the courses I starred.  But my rating of those courses in no way reflects a posturing to secure an invitation back.

That doesn't mean you - or anyone else - can deliver an unbiased opinion. Each of us has an opinion that is subject to biases, known or unknown.

George, there's a difference between favoring a course because of a positive experience or feeling and favoring a course to curry favor from its members or architects.

I'll fully admit my votes may be subject to the former.  JK suggested all votes would be subject to the latter. 

[George Pazin]

George, there's a difference between favoring a course because of a positive experience or feeling and favoring a course to curry favor from its members or architects.

I'll fully admit my votes may be subject to the former.  JK suggested all votes would be subject to the latter. 

  Naaaaaaah, JK just knows himself well.

In the end, most of these rankings are pretty meaningless, to me anyway. I tend to side with my friend Ed Getka, who says he looks for rankings, ratings, etc, among golfers that he knows have similar interests to himself, knowing he will get a better result. That's why I think it makes more sense for each person to post individual ballots, lists, etc, than to compile aggregate rankings.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Are we suppose to post our votes on this thread as well as send Jim a filled-in-ballot email??

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan:

That's up to you whether you want to post them here or not.  Sending them to Jim is what factors into the results.

[Kevin Pallier]

* Old Macdonald

Tom

I'm curious as to why you think that ?

[David_Elvins]

I'm curious as to why you think that ?

Kev,

Probably the same reason that sebonac only gets one star, the greatness of Old MacDonald is muted by the restrictions associated with Doak having to accept the input of others.  

[Tom_Doak]

Kev,

Probably the same reason that sebonac only gets one star, the greatness of Old MacDonald is muted by the restrictions associated with Doak having to accept the input of others.  

I'm sure there is some truth to that.  On both courses, there are a couple of things that I wasn't 100% happy with, but deferred to others; and when you are voting on the top ten courses of the last 15-20 years, it doesn't take many of those to put one out of the top ten.

On the other hand, I had no qualms about Barnbougle Dunes or St. Andrews Beach, which are also collaborations [with Mike Clayton]. 

In the end, Sebonack is just too hard for my tastes, and Old Macdonald, I just haven't played enough to be comfortable putting in the top ten.  [I have not been back to play since opening day.]

I would think most people would be put off by how many courses of my own I've rated highly, instead of thinking I'm selling myself short.  The only two courses where my own ratings might be above the consensus are Rock Creek, which I feel strongly about, and Cape Kidnappers, which I think some people sell short because they enjoy the views and miss the architecture, and because there is a general bias in favor of links courses.

[Garland Bayley]

There are only three European courses on this thread, all in Scotland and all designed and financed by Americans... Is that a true reflection or a biased group of voters?....

...

How the hell am I supposed to nominate European courses if I have never played in Europe? If you wanted European courses on this thread, then all you had to do was get off your lazy kiester and nominate some course! 

[Pete_Pittock]

Arcadia Bluffs        0
Ballyneal               ***
Bandon Dunes       *
Bandon Trails        **
Chambers Bay       **
Kingsbarns            *
MPCC (Shore)       *
Old Macdonald      **
Pacific Dunes        ***
Rock Creek           **
Rustic Canyon       *
Sagebrush            **
Wild Horse            *
Wine Valley          *

sorry about that Tom , didn't think everything through (from Tom's following reply)

[Tom_Doak]

Pete:

What's that?  It's not my vote -- see post #3 in this thread.

If it's your vote, please go back and alter it and cut and paste ... don't quote like it's actually my own vote.