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Jim Colton

Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #275 on: July 27, 2011, 11:37:46 PM »
Holy hanging chad, Batman! Controversy...

I found out today that both Wolf Point and Diamante got '0' votes by mistake, skewing the initial results. I'm sure somebody will post that this change coincided with timely Ben Cox donations from Mr. Nuzzo and Mr. Cowley, but the error was caused by a voter confusing them for similarly-named courses by mistake. And since both courses have relative few total votes, throwing out one low vote has a dramatic impact on their results. Wolf Point is now 6th and Diamante is 18th. I apologize if anybody was misled due to this mistake.

REVISED TOP 25
1. Sand Hills (62)
2. Pacific Dunes (106)
3. Barnbougle Dunes (23)
4. Ballyneal (70)
5. Friars Head (52)
6. Wolf Point (7)
7. Ellerston (3)
8. Cape Kidnappers (13)
9. Rock Creek (28)
10. Old Macdonald (62)
11. Lost Farm (17)
12. Castle Stuart (11)
13. Kingsley Club (50)
14. Old Sandwich (19)
15. Bandon Trails (93)
16. Kingsbarns (41)
17. Sebonack (41)
18. Diamante (8)
19. Cal Club (27)
20. Bandon Dunes (98)
21. Gozzer Ranch (9)
22. Whistling Straits (Straits) (53)
23. Boston Golf Club (16)
24. Alotian Club (9)
25. Chambers Bay (44)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 11:41:58 PM by Jim Colton »

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #276 on: July 27, 2011, 11:45:12 PM »
My first thought when I looked at the list was that it's a mistake not to have Wine Valley in the top 25.  But, when I consider the 9 courses I have played that were ranked in the top 25 here, I would only put WV ahead of 1 of them.  I have faith that the rest of the courses in the top 25 are properly ranked.  It is just amazing to me that there have been that many great golf courses built in the last 16 years.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #277 on: July 28, 2011, 12:53:48 AM »
My first thought when I looked at the list was that it's a mistake not to have Wine Valley in the top 25.  But, when I consider the 9 courses I have played that were ranked in the top 25 here, I would only put WV ahead of 1 of them.  I have faith that the rest of the courses in the top 25 are properly ranked.  It is just amazing to me that there have been that many great golf courses built in the last 16 years.

Mark,

Ditto that.  Wine Valley is nothing short of fantastic, but looking at the list and what I've played on it...I can't really argue that it should absolutely be there either.  I personally ranked it on par with Gozzer, but even Gozzer is pretty far down the list.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #278 on: July 28, 2011, 10:54:27 AM »
Garland,
Keep in mind that Pacific Dunes has a big pond...its right of #4, left of 11 and 13. I suppose its natural enough, but its rather annoyingly large. I had no idea that the pond on #11 Trails was man-made...and I wouldn't care one way or the other as its fairly tasteful. Its not the best hole on the course, but I like how having TONS of room left makes most golfers play so cautiously as to perhaps cost them almost as many shots as if they'd challenge the water in the first place.

Thanks Peter and Kalen. I've at least got a few of you fooled! The real test to get into the fan club is correct pronunciation of my last name!

There is a big difference between the pond at Pacific Dunes and the one at Bandon Trails. The one at Bandon Trails borders the fairway, and the fairway slopes into it. A slightly offline shot will take the slope and roll down into the pond. There is no such slope sucking balls into the pond at Pacific Dunes. There actually is a natural pond visible from #11 Trails, that furthermore makes the man made one look grossly unnatural and out of place.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #279 on: July 28, 2011, 01:39:32 PM »
I've forgotten, was Dormie in the running here?  Have enough people played it to have an opinion? 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #280 on: July 28, 2011, 02:02:21 PM »
The Dormie Club was not on the ballot because only one person nominated it.

I suspect it would have done pretty well but only had a handful of ballots cast, since the requirement was to have played it and it hasn't been open for very long.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #281 on: July 28, 2011, 04:57:06 PM »
The group appreciates a certain type of architecture--and in fairness I tend to lean that way myself. The three courses that I gave *** to included two Doaks (Rock Creek and Pac Dunes) and one C&C (Bandon Trails). However, this group would add more value IMO if it had a broader base instead of focusing a large percentage of its collective energy into a few architects and their work. Those folks going to Rock Creek without seeing Gozzer Ranch (assuming the opportunity exists of course) make a huge mistake.

Andy, you are forewarned I will be starting a thread in the not too distant future on this comment.

-----

Some very entertaining posts on this thread, thanks everyone for sharing.

Just think how much more entertaining it would've been if Matt were still around... :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Andy Troeger

Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #282 on: July 28, 2011, 05:19:08 PM »
George,
By all means, start that thread!

Garland,
Slightly offline from where? You have 100 yards to miss left! Its a great risk/reward situation. And given the angles the penalty isn't that severe--you drop and have a pretty straightforward shot/pitch. You won't accept ponds in any situation, which is your right, but its an extreme view that isn't realistic IMO.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #283 on: July 28, 2011, 06:29:53 PM »
George,
By all means, start that thread!

Garland,
Slightly offline from where? You have 100 yards to miss left! Its a great risk/reward situation. And given the angles the penalty isn't that severe--you drop and have a pretty straightforward shot/pitch. You won't accept ponds in any situation, which is your right, but its an extreme view that isn't realistic IMO.

Risk reward is a pertinent concept for those who think they know where there ball will be going. I have no idea where my ball will be going. I choose a safe route and execute the best I can. If I end up in the bunkers on the inside of the dogleg, then I have to make a career shot to miss the pond, because weak escapes are just going to roll down into the pond.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Andy Troeger

Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #284 on: July 28, 2011, 08:17:28 PM »
Garland,
To me that makes it even better. You've admittedly still got plenty of room to play safe, but if you hit a poor tee shot into the bunkers and want to try to recover you had better hit a good shot to pull it off. Its not the courses job to allow an admitted high-handicapper an easy recovery from a poor shot. Its no "career shot" to miss the pond--you could chop it out to the left any way you wanted.

You can use the excuse of having no idea where the ball is going to negate any hole's strategy--you're just up there mindlessly banging at the ball.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #285 on: July 29, 2011, 12:02:08 AM »
Back to the results.....

Jim, I was wondering if there was any meaningful difference in the results when only votes from well-travelled golfers are used (over 15 or 20 ratings) or less well-travelled golfers (5 or less ratings) are eliminated?


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #286 on: July 29, 2011, 01:33:32 AM »
Garland,
To me that makes it even better. You've admittedly still got plenty of room to play safe, but if you hit a poor tee shot into the bunkers and want to try to recover you had better hit a good shot to pull it off. Its not the courses job to allow an admitted high-handicapper an easy recovery from a poor shot. Its no "career shot" to miss the pond--you could chop it out to the left any way you wanted.

You can use the excuse of having no idea where the ball is going to negate any hole's strategy--you're just up there mindlessly banging at the ball.

Apparently you don't understand the steepness of the slope leading to the water. "Chop it out to the left any way you wanted" doesn't work. It turns right, runs down the hill, and goes in the pond. You have to be able to hit it far enough to get it past the steep slope that leads to the water.

Have you hit out of those bunkers?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Andy Troeger

Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #287 on: July 29, 2011, 08:56:30 AM »
Then either hit it out sideways left, where you can avoid the slope, or take the risk. You don't deserve an easy recovery out of those bunkers. And lets get back on topic...

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #288 on: July 30, 2011, 10:04:38 PM »
Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs*
Ballyhack 0
Ballyneal *
Bandon Dunes *
Bandon Trails 0
Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne 0
Black Mesa *
Boston G.C. *

Cal Club **
Calusa Pines *
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart ***
Chambers Bay *
Colorado Golf Club *
Dallas National *
Diamante *
Dismal River I 0
Ellerston
Erin Hills 0

Friars Head **
Gozzer Ranch **
Hidden Creek *
Kauri Cliffs
Kingsbarns **
Kingsley Club *
Kinloch (N.Z.)
Kinloch (Va.) 0
Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore) *
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
Old Macdonald **
Old Sandwich *
Pacific Dunes **
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge 0
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon 0

Sagebrush
Sand Hills ***
Sebonack **
St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay 0
Victoria National *
Whistling Straits (Straits) *
Wild Horse *
Wine Valley
Wolf Point
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 10:20:11 PM by Brad Klein »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #289 on: July 31, 2011, 04:34:46 PM »
Bill
Did you play through at Wild Horse?
Your ** & *** + Saguaro total 15 world top ten modern - 6 more than Klein and 8 more than Doak.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #290 on: July 31, 2011, 04:37:38 PM »
Bill S:  Congratulations, you've played more courses than anyone else who cast a ballot.

You've also got three *** courses and twelve ** courses.  I guess that's okay under the Michelin system, but it means that not all of your ** courses belong in the top ten.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #291 on: July 31, 2011, 07:39:38 PM »
Bill S:  Congratulations, you've played more courses than anyone else who cast a ballot.

You've also got three *** courses and twelve ** courses.  I guess that's okay under the Michelin system, but it means that not all of your ** courses belong in the top ten.

Or simply demonstrates that there is no appreciable difference between the magic 10th or 12th on such a list.

Andy Troeger

Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #292 on: July 31, 2011, 08:41:12 PM »
FWIW, I think the Michelin scale is a mediocre way to do this measurement. There are far too few categories. The difference between my lowest ** course and my higest * score course is miniscule--the courses are ranked next to each other on my list but I ran out of spots that I thought could be in the top ten. The gap between my highest * score and my lowest * course is perhaps ten times broader, but they're still important courses in the great scheme of things, so I think the scores are appropriate for the scale. I just don't think its necessarily an accurate reflection of my feelings for the courses. Perhaps that type of thing gets balanced over a large enough sample, but I'm not sure.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #293 on: August 01, 2011, 04:56:26 AM »
Andy:

Quote
FWIW, I think the Michelin scale is a mediocre way to do this measurement.

The authentic Michelin Scale doesn't limit how many entries can qualify for each star rating.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #294 on: August 01, 2011, 07:29:29 AM »
Having played Arcadia Bluffs and Kingsley Club on back-to-back days 2 weeks ago, I question the architectural chops of anyone who rates them equally.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #295 on: August 01, 2011, 07:45:57 AM »
Andy:

Quote
FWIW, I think the Michelin scale is a mediocre way to do this measurement.

The authentic Michelin Scale doesn't limit how many entries can qualify for each star rating.

Exactly.  There is really no such thing as a top ten best, only top class followed by the other classes.  There should, however, be some discerning elements which separate the classes even if each course that misses the class above is for a different reason. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #296 on: August 01, 2011, 11:39:21 AM »
Having played Arcadia Bluffs and Kingsley Club on back-to-back days 2 weeks ago, I question the architectural chops of anyone who rates them equally.

I question the chops of anyone who's been on this board for more than a fortnight who bothers to even play Arcadia with so much other great golf on offer in the area.  Hopefully with your access whoring chops you at least didn't pay full freight... ;)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #297 on: August 01, 2011, 01:41:15 PM »

Oitavos Dunes 0 (some really good stuff, my favorite Hills (Steve Forest actually))


Everything I've seen credits Drew Rogers, who also did Newport National.

Donnie Luper

Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #298 on: August 01, 2011, 10:13:34 PM »
Here goes my votes:

Alotian Not played
Arcadia Bluffs  *
Ballyhack *
Ballyneal *
Bandon Dunes **
Bandon Trails *
Barnbougle Dunes Not Played
Bayonne 0
Black Mesa *
Boston G.C. *

Cal Club Not Played
Calusa Pines *
Cape Kidnappers Not Played
Castle Stuart Not Played
Chambers Bay *
Colorado Golf Club *
Dallas National 0
Diamante  ***
Dismal River I0
Ellerston Not Played
Erin Hills Not Played

Friars Head **
Gozzer Ranch ** (I think this is Fazio's best design)
Hidden Creek 0
Kauri Cliffs Not Played
Kingsbarns Not Played
Kingsley Club *
Kinloch (N.Z.) Not Played
Kinloch (Va.) *
Lost Farm Not Played
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)*
Nanea Not Played

Nine Bridges, Korea Not Played
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal Not Played
Old Macdonald  *
Old Sandwich 0
Pacific Dunes  ***
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr. Not Played
Quarry at Giant's Ridge **
The Renaissance Club Not Played
Rock Creek Playing in 3 weeks
Rustic Canyon Not Played

Sagebrush Not Played
Sand Hills  ***
Sebonack ***
St. Andrews Beach Not Played
Sutton Bay *
Victoria National *
Whistling Straits (Straits) ***
Wild Horse 0
Wine Valley Playing in 3 weeks
Wolf Point Not Played

I would also give 2 stars to Pikewood National with it being really close to getting 3 stars and 2 stars to Pete Dye Golf Club.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday
« Reply #299 on: August 02, 2011, 09:17:18 AM »
Andy T,

Re the Michelin Guide a few points.

The scale is akin to logarithmic; only a handful of anythings should achieve three stars, even as there is no bound on the number of anythings. This is unlike top 10s, top 100s, etc, where a completely arbitrary number is chosen, and then the appropriate number of anythings is pulled forth, regardless of whether there are X anythings worthy of note.

If you are having trouble differentiating *** from ** (or ** from *, etc), I would suggest you push courses downward until you feel significant gaps between your respective groupings. It's like the story of the scout passing through towns where no one can agree on the best player. (If there's no majority then no kid in town is good enough to make it at the next level.)

Which brings me to my next point about cardinal numbers and the Michelin Guide: there is no law that says there have to be *any* *** anythings -- or X number of Y-starred anythings.

The MG's red guide star system is intended to differentiate not all restaurants but just the very top tier. In truth there are more than three stars: making the red guide is notable in itself, and then there are further distinctions along the lines of good for families, etc.

If golf courses were reviewed as in the red guide, the starred courses would be an important but not the only part. There would be vastly superior information content relative to these lists of 100 courses. A real red guide for courses would identify the truly special in more respects, including "the best" in terms of absolute excellence (stars) -- but not just absolute excellence (whatever that is).

Which brings me to my last point: for many people a cardinal system makes for harder decisions and for better discussions. Are these two vastly different courses really on the same level? How does one assess excellence when making what amounts to apples and oranges comparisons? How are we to take individuals' views and convert those into a single value?

So we're forced to think more deeply about the nature of excellence, a good thing. Other than at a few arbitrary cutoff points (no. 10 vs no. 11, no. 100 vs no. 101) I don't think that really happens in an ordinal system. We just come up with an ordered list that lets us evade the hard choices of how much better no. 1 is than no. 2 -- or than no. 100 -- or of what we mean by excellence.

It is illuminating that these magazine rankings apparently have their rankers use some form of cardinal system but then for publication dumb the results down to ordinal.

Seriously, why is that?

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