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Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2011, 06:43:36 AM »
Excuse my ignorance but I assume Diamante does not refer to the Ault/Clark course in Ark.  I've played 39 on the list and will post on the link this weekend.  JC

JC Jones

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Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2011, 06:47:07 AM »
Ally,

Oitavos Dunes is on there also.

But yeah, a pretty US-centric list.

There is a world outside of the US?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2011, 07:37:23 AM »
I just wanted to make sure this didn't get lost!


My own vote.  I'm only voting on the courses I've actually played, which is a shame, as I've seen 33 of them overall, but I can only vote on 22 I've played.

Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
** Ballyneal
* Bandon Dunes
* Bandon Trails
*** Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
0 Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

* Cal Club
Calusa Pines
** Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay
Colorado Golf Club
Dallas National
Diamante
Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills

** Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
Hidden Creek
0 Kauri Cliffs
* Kingsbarns
* Kingsley Club
Kinloch (N.Z.)
Kinloch (Va.)
* Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
* Old Macdonald
* Old Sandwich
*** Pacific Dunes
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
0 The Renaissance Club
** Rock Creek
* Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
*** Sand Hills
* Sebonack
* St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
Whistling Straits (Straits)
* Wild Horse
Wine Valley
Wolf Point
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2011, 07:40:09 AM »
Excuse my ignorance but I assume Diamante does not refer to the Ault/Clark course in Ark.  I've played 39 on the list and will post on the link this weekend.  JC

Diamante is in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2011, 07:48:35 AM »
There are only three European courses on this thread, all in Scotland and all designed and financed by Americans... Is that a true reflection or a biased group of voters?....

I don't know because I haven't seen enough modern courses on the list to judge...

I think it might be a bit of both, slight biased but a fairly true reflection too unfortunately. I am trying to rack my brains but I can't really think of any high profile modern courses being constructed in the UK other than the 3 mentioned that would deserve to be in the list. I can't really comment on the Europe as haven't played any of note on the continent.

Askernish although re-build recently it is based on the old course, so it isn't really a modern build is it?

How about Yas Links in Abu Dhabi, not played it myself but heard it may be a bit of a game changer in the middle east, hoping to get a look next time I go out to visit my Sister over there?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2011, 08:09:33 AM »
Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs- 0
Ballyhack
Ballyneal
Bandon Dunes- *
Bandon Trails- *
Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

Cal Club
Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay
Colorado Golf Club
Dallas National
Diamante- *
Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills- *

Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
Hidden Creek
Kauri Cliffs
Kingsbarns- *
Kingsley Club- **
Kinloch (N.Z.)
Kinloch (Va.)
Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
Old Macdonald
Old Sandwich
Pacific Dunes- ***
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon- *

Sagebrush
Sand Hills
Sebonack
St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
Whistling Straits (Straits)- 0
Wild Horse
Wine Valley
Wolf Point
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 12:37:41 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2011, 08:24:49 AM »
Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
***Ballyneal
**Bandon Dunes
**Bandon Trails
Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

Cal Club
Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
**Chambers Bay
*Colorado Golf Club
Dallas National
Diamante
*Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills

***Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
**Hidden Creek
Kauri Cliffs
Kingsbarns
Kingsley Club
Kinloch (N.Z.)
**Kinloch (Va.)
Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
***Old Macdonald
Old Sandwich
***Pacific Dunes
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
***Sand Hills
Sebonack
St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
Whistling Straits (Straits)
**Wild Horse
Wine Valley
Wolf Point

I probably would have added Galloway National and Trump Bedminster to the list. 

Tom: Some day over drinks you will have to explain why you didn't give Old Mac ***.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2011, 08:37:06 AM »
I'm sorry Jud, but Whistling Straits is not in the same league as Erin Hills?  Bandon Dunes? Bandon Trails? Colorado Golf Club? Wild Horse?


Am I missing something?  not even a * ?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2011, 09:01:08 AM »
I'm sorry Jud, but Whistling Straits is not in the same league as Erin Hills?  Bandon Dunes? Bandon Trails? Colorado Golf Club? Wild Horse?


Am I missing something?  not even a * ?

Well I thought about giving it 1 *, but I prefer Erin Hills on the margin as it's on an infinitely better piece of property, is 1000% more natural and doesn't have 2 horrible holes.  Bandon Trails and Bandon Dunes are clearly superior IMO, and I haven't played or voted on CGC or WH...And as there tends to be grade inflation in these type of things, I'd rather change Erin Hills to a 0 than bump WS to a *...
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 12:17:18 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2011, 09:02:38 AM »
Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs - *
Ballyhack
Ballyneal - ***
Bandon Dunes - *
Bandon Trails - **
Barnbougle Dunes - ***
Bayonne
Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

Cal Club
Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay - *
Colorado Golf Club
Dallas National
Diamante
Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills - *

Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
Hidden Creek
Kauri Cliffs
Kingsbarns
Kingsley Club - **
Kinloch (N.Z.)
Kinloch (Va.)
Lost Farm - **
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
Old Macdonald - **
Old Sandwich
Pacific Dunes - ***
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
Sand Hills
Sebonack
St. Andrews Beach - *
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
Whistling Straits (Straits) - *
Wild Horse - *
Wine Valley - *
Wolf Point
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2011, 09:04:42 AM »
I have played 10 of the listed courses and am a member of two of them.  Yesterday I watched a young man who has been successful in Special Olympics tournaments practice putting and chipping for two hours in 100 deg heat as his Dad tossed him ball after ball.  As always, the behind the scenes posturing of the voting process is more interesting than the results.

I of course will not be voting and only post this because I believe it is as important to know who voted as it is to see who won the ballot.  The least we can do is post who votes and which clubs they are affiliated with in what capacity.  I do hope that Dad didn't give his son heat stroke in an attempt to win an event where everyone is already a winner.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2011, 09:12:58 AM »
I voted and am not a member of a course built since 1995. Now if we start a Tillinghast thread for his top courses, I may have to abstain.
Mr Hurricane

John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2011, 09:30:41 AM »
0  Ballyhack
*  Bayonne
** Friars Head
*  Colorado Golf
*  Rustic Canyon
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 11:58:39 AM by John Shimp »

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2011, 09:45:24 AM »
I of course will not be voting and only post this because I believe it is as important to know who voted as it is to see who won the ballot.  The least we can do is post who votes and which clubs they are affiliated with in what capacity.

John,

Why not vote? Either:

1.  You joined clubs with inferior courses and you don't want any of the staff/members to see your honest opinion.

2.  You love your clubs' courses but don't have enough confidence in your homer opinion and don't want to appear as a shill.

Yes I know I gave my club **.  But guess what,  I can only find 7 or 8 courses on the Golfweek Modern list that I honestly think have a good shot at being better and I didn't join just for the cherry chicken salad  8)....

« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 12:38:11 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2011, 09:56:31 AM »
But yeah, a pretty US-centric list.

Scott

Most "World" lists are.

I believe Kennedy Bay and National (Moonah) are better than some on the Top50 courses listed here.

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2011, 09:58:04 AM »
Alotian
* Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
Ballyneal
* Bandon Dunes
** Bandon Trails
Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

Cal Club
Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay
Colorado Golf Club
Dallas National
* Diamante
Dismal River I
Ellerston
* Erin Hills

Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
Hidden Creek
Kauri Cliffs
Kingsbarns
*** Kingsley Club
Kinloch (N.Z.)
Kinloch (Va.)
Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
Old Macdonald
Old Sandwich
*** Pacific Dunes
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
Sand Hills
Sebonack
St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
Whistling Straits (Straits)
Wild Horse
Wine Valley
Wolf Point

I need to get out more.  I'm assuming Kiawah Ocean Course missed the date cutoff?
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2011, 10:09:29 AM »
I need to get out more.  I'm assuming Kiawah Ocean Course missed the date cutoff?

Correct. Kiawah OC opened in 1991, hosting that year's Ryder Cup matches.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2011, 10:12:24 AM »
group1: 1,2,4,5,6,7,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,17,18,19,20,21,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52 group2: group3: 22 group4: 8,16,42 group5: 3

You're supposed to mail this bit to Jim Colton...unless you just wanted to have a bit of fun with the treehouse by making them look it up on the link!   ;)

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2011, 10:14:40 AM »
Alotian
Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
Ballyneal
0 Bandon Dunes
** Bandon Trails
** Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

**Cal Club
Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay
Colorado Golf Club
Dallas National
Diamante
Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills

** Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
0 Hidden Creek
Kauri Cliffs
* Kingsbarns
Kingsley Club
Kinloch (N.Z.)
Kinloch (Va.)
* Lost Farm
0 Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
*** Old Macdonald
Old Sandwich
*** Pacific Dunes
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
*** Sand Hills
0 Sebonack
* St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
Whistling Straits (Straits)
Wild Horse
Wine Valley
Wolf Point

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2011, 10:15:28 AM »
There are only three European courses on this thread, all in Scotland and all designed and financed by Americans... Is that a true reflection or a biased group of voters?....



Ally,

The nomination process was open to all, I don't recall thier being limitations on location, just that it had to be built in 1995 or after.

I'm guessing when I finally make that trip to the UK there will be very few courses, if any, that I'll be jonesing to play built post-1995.

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2011, 10:18:00 AM »
Alotian
* Arcadia Bluffs
* Ballyhack
Ballyneal
* Bandon Dunes
Bandon Trails
Barnbougle Dunes
** Bayonne
Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

Cal Club
Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay
Colorado Golf Club
Dallas National
Diamante
Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills

Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
* Hidden Creek
Kauri Cliffs
Kingsbarns
** Kingsley Club
Kinloch (N.Z.)
Kinloch (Va.)
Lost Farm
** Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
Old Macdonald
Old Sandwich
Pacific Dunes
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
*** Sand Hills
Sebonack
St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
Whistling Straits (Straits)
** Wild Horse
Wine Valley
Wolf Point

Why no love for the desert SW?

No Cascata, Stone Canyon & We-Ko-Pa Saguaro??
Integrity in the moment of choice

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2011, 10:46:55 AM »
There are only three European courses on this thread, all in Scotland and all designed and financed by Americans... Is that a true reflection or a biased group of voters?....



Ally,

The nomination process was open to all, I don't recall thier being limitations on location, just that it had to be built in 1995 or after.

I'm guessing when I finally make that trip to the UK there will be very few courses, if any, that I'll be jonesing to play built post-1995.

Kalen,

The nomination process was open to 1,500 like minded golf architecture fans...

That's not to say that the list is incomplete or that you are wrong... However, with so many pre-1995 classics to choose from, it would take something truly special (i.e. Michelin 3 star by this rating system) to make anyone want to play a post-1995 on a first visit to the UK or Europe...

Ally

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2011, 10:49:54 AM »
Ally,

I totally agree there, its certainly no knock on the quality of golf in the UK.

Its more a reflection of the mini golden golf age we've had here in the States over the last 15 years or so.  A lot of really really good golf courses have been built in that time frame.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2011, 10:55:23 AM »
There are only three European courses on this thread, all in Scotland and all designed and financed by Americans... Is that a true reflection or a biased group of voters?....



Ally,

The nomination process was open to all, I don't recall thier being limitations on location, just that it had to be built in 1995 or after.

I'm guessing when I finally make that trip to the UK there will be very few courses, if any, that I'll be jonesing to play built post-1995.

Kalen,

The nomination process was open to 1,500 like minded golf architecture fans...

That's not to say that the list is incomplete or that you are wrong... However, with so many pre-1995 classics to choose from, it would take something truly special (i.e. Michelin 3 star by this rating system) to make anyone want to play a post-1995 on a first visit to the UK or Europe...

Ally

I think it's more of a reflection of Yanks jonesing for the Old school links experience than the quality of the newer designs.  We don't need to fly across the pond and suffer jet lag/cost to play great new courses...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Post-modern Courses - voting thread
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2011, 11:21:44 AM »
I of course will not be voting and only post this because I believe it is as important to know who voted as it is to see who won the ballot.  The least we can do is post who votes and which clubs they are affiliated with in what capacity.

John,

Why not vote? Either:

1.  You joined clubs with inferior courses and you don't want any of the staff/members to see your honest opinion.

2.  You love your clubs' courses but don't have enough confidence in your homer opinion and don't want to appear as a shill.

Yes I know I gave my club ***.  But guess what,  I can only find 7 or 8 courses on the Golfweek Modern list that I honestly think have a good shot at being better and I didn't join just for the cherry chicken salad  8)....



Jud,

I am simply not a very good person.  I can not vote on anything without taking into consideration on what is in it for me.  Given the current state of the game and my uncanny ability to play anywhere, anytime I choose at any course in the world, whenever I write a dues or assessment check I vote in the positive in the strongest of terms.  I am not going to write a club a check and then pretend to be above my desire to not feel ripped off by voting another course higher.  I also have some strange shallow need, that I don't understand, to be liked and tend to like people or things that are nice to me in return.  Then comes the architects who I am affiliated with or have been kind to me in the past.  I'm going to give Kavanaugh, Nuzzo, Brauer, Crowley, Doak, Fazio, Coore, Richardson, Dye, Nicklaus, and even Shackelford (because his dad played for John Wooden) passes.  Sorry for whoever I missed.

Now back to my second sentence "I can not vote on anything without taking into consideration on what is in it for me." If I were given free golf and access to each of these 52 courses I would say to hell with bias and submit votes that protect my intellectual integrity.  ie: Sand Hills *** and so forth.  So please note:  There was a time in my life where I desired to be a rater and am not above the process if I get my taste for my efforts.

One other thing.  This process was not open to 1500 like minded golf fans.  It was open to people who choose to improve their status in the golf community through not only bragging about the courses they have played but enjoy flying the flag of intellectual elitism.  I'm sure the number is closer to 50.  I'm giving Doak a pass not only because I am now a member of one of his courses but because he has been flying that flag since he reluctantly enrolled at M.I.T.  I know he is good at math because he developed the formula of # of stars = value of a course/number of design credits.  How else could Old Mac get one star?