[Patrick_Mucci]

What"s really interesting is that American courses used to brown out almost every summer and golfers accepted those conditions.

In the 50's, before automated irrigation systems it was quite common.

TV and modern irrigation have transitioned course conditions from that great greenish/yellowish/brownish color, that signaled Fast &Firm, to lush, green and softer conditions.

Perhaps the rising cost of water, or limits on water, along with a trend toward F & F will produce better playing conditions without lush green coloration.

[Adam Clayman]

Patrick, Just sitting here watching the leaders play the first, I was struck by how years and years of recollection, how the acceptable distance from the hole, has always been different, in watching the open championship, versus watching the PGA tour. In the U.S. a few feet is considered a good shot, while on the wind swept links 10-20 feet will always get the crowd applauding.

These influences have been on TV for a long time, and clearly, has influenced only the most intelligent of viewers. 

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Patrick you're missing a couple of key points. First, fescue is not exactly an bright green grass like Rye. It generally stays much lighter in color. How many courses in America has fescue in the playing areas? 4 that I can think of, and they're all at the same place. Second, this is not a uniquely American "problem." As I said, the one parkland course I played was plenty green and the English courses I have seen either in drive-by's or on television, including RSG this week, all seemed nicely green. You assume green and firm/fast are mutually exclusive, they are not, there are far more things factoring into firmness than color. What color was Pine Valley when you played it last week or whenever? Last time I was there for the Crump Cup the course was greener than a Boston Celtics jersey and drives were rolling out 40-50 yards. How much more do you want?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick you're missing a couple of key points. First, fescue is not exactly an bright green grass like Rye. It generally stays much lighter in color. How many courses in America has fescue in the playing areas? 4 that I can think of, and they're all at the same place. Second, this is not a uniquely American "problem." As I said, the one parkland course I played was plenty green and the English courses I have seen either in drive-by's or on television, including RSG this week, all seemed nicely green. You assume green and firm/fast are mutually exclusive, they are not, there are far more things factoring into firmness than color. What color was Pine Valley when you played it last week or whenever? Last time I was there for the Crump Cup the course was greener than a Boston Celtics jersey and drives were rolling out 40-50 yards. How much more do you want?

Jamie,

I spent 4 days there last week and it was green and NOT F&F

You make the same mistake that everyone watching a tournament on TV makes.
They think that the course looks and plays the same when there is no tournament and nothing could be further  from the truth.

PV is "PREPARED" for the Crump

Seminole is mostly Brownish/yellowish/greenish for most of the season.

The cost to attain F&F with deep green coloration is enormous and almost impossible to maintain on a day in and  day out basis.

If you think all fairways are wall to wall Rye you've got a surprise waiting for you 

[Jim Nelson]

Patrick you're missing a couple of key points. First, fescue is not exactly an bright green grass like Rye. It generally stays much lighter in color. How many courses in America has fescue in the playing areas? 4 that I can think of, and they're all at the same place. Second, this is not a uniquely American "problem." As I said, the one parkland course I played was plenty green and the English courses I have seen either in drive-by's or on television, including RSG this week, all seemed nicely green.

Which are the four courses you believe have fescue?

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Patrick, I don't think all fairways are Rye. I am assuming Pine Valley is a type of bent, courses I played around DC/Baltimore had bermuda fairways, courses on the West Coast had rye or poa or whatever that is out there. But I have played courses, especially in inland California that played as firm as any links I've ever played and still maintained a moderate green color, and this was at a lower end price-point facility. This is a great idea you have, but unless some major limitations are placed/forced on golf courses as far as water usage, I doubt it will ever happen.

Jim Nelson-I am fairly certain the 4 at Bandon have fescue, those are the only 4 I have ever heard of in America having fescue, though I could be wrong.

[Jim Nelson]

Jim Nelson-I am fairly certain the 4 at Bandon have fescue, those are the only 4 I have ever heard of in America having fescue, though I could be wrong.
[/quote]

I thought that was where you were going.  Ballyneal is mostly fescue and does play fast and firm.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jamie,

This spring there was a severe drought in Florida, causing emergency water restrictions to be put in place.

Courses couldn't water their fairways unless they were using effluent water.

While effluent water use is allowed, the cost of effluent water is regulated by the agencies dispensing it, and I have no doubt that that cost will increase with time, driving budgets upwards.  So, those forces that could result in reduced water consumption are already being aligned.

You also have to remember the time of year that the Crump is played.... in the fall when humidity and temperatures are down and playing conditions almost ideal in South/Cental NJ.

If the economy continues to remain in its present condition, clubs will be pressured, vis a vis  budgets, to reduce costs to maintain.

Once golfers realize that Brownish/yellowish/greenish conditions are ideal for playing golf, I think you'll see the trend take hold.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Pat we'll see, but I suspect this change will take a long time to happen. I think most golfers, when given the choice, will take green grass over most anything else.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat we'll see, but I suspect this change will take a long time to happen. I think most golfers, when given the choice, will take green grass over most anything else.

I think that's their expectation, drilled into their heads and reinforced every weekend when they watch the PGA Tour.

One would think, with modern irrigation systems, that getting courses to play F&F while maintaining the BYG coloration. would be an easy task.

It took a while to get to lush green so I imagine it will take a while to get back to BYG.

[JMEvensky]

JME,

But, I wonder if anyone ever said, "I wish my course would PLAY like that.

I see a trend toward fast and firm at a number of prominent courses.

This is usually followed by the mirroring of those trends at the less than prominent courses.

I'm aware of several courses that play Fast and Firm.

Many of you who attended my get together at Mountain Ridge last September witnessed it first hand, so now, the next step would seem to be toward those brownish/yellowish/greenish conditions you see at the British Open

I have never once heard a member at my place say that they'd be willing to trade aesthetics for playability.

Pat,I'm happy to continue flogging this dead horse right along with you.However,unless and until all private clubs move to the benevolent dictator method of government,it ain't gonna happen.

Your idea to educate the membership is a noble one.It's also a fool's errand.Today's "membership" has no interest in playability at the expense of aesthetics.Not many have any interest in playability at all.Golf is a social outing for them.

I grew up playing common bermuda in Memphis.No golf course anywhere on Earth gets faster/firmer than common bermuda in a Memphis August.Today,my same golf course has over-watered zoysia fairways and less-than-firm Champion greens.Each of these is by design--the membership prefers it this way.

Those currently making golf decisions at my place would consider "brown" to be an impediment to recruiting new members.

The only possible reason for returning to a more sensible maintenance ideal will be budgetary.Green Chairmen and Boards will have no alternative but to cut costs and prioritize.

At my place,they'll probably forego greens rolling in favor of chilled towels at the turn.

[Terry Lavin]

I bet the overwhelming majority of average American golfers wouldn't pay fifty bucks to play a course that looks or plays like Hoylake or Sandwich. Too much agronomic culture shock.

[JMEvensky]

I bet the overwhelming majority of average American golfers wouldn't pay fifty bucks to play a course that looks or plays like Hoylake or Sandwich. Too much agronomic culture shock.
 

They wouldn't play it if you paid them the $50.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

I bet the overwhelming majority of average American golfers wouldn't pay fifty bucks to play a course that looks or plays like Hoylake or Sandwich. Too much agronomic culture shock.

Indeed they would not, unless of course it was Hoylake or Sandwich specifically. They only reason American golfers play courses that look like that in America is lack of another option.

JME you said it spot on. If given the option of Old Course playability or Augusta National aesthetics, the vast majority of American memberships and players would take the latter.

Patrick at least you now admit outright that it is a very long term process, not one that is likely to be shortened by seeing the British Open on TV from Royal St. George's; we've been seeing the British Open on TV for, what, 30, 40 years now? And yet conditions get greener every year. So, it will take a massive cultural shift in the American golfers in order for this to ever happen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have never once heard a member at my place say that they'd be willing to trade aesthetics for playability.

That's because they've never experienced optimal playability.

Once they've seen the benefit of drives rolling out another 20-30-40-50 yards, they convert quite quickly.



Pat,I'm happy to continue flogging this dead horse right along with you.

However,unless and until all private clubs move to the benevolent dictator method of government,it ain't gonna happen.

I disagree, just look at the tree issue.  At one time you had arbor committees planting trees indiscriminately all over the golf course.
And now, now you have systemic tree removal programs.
So, trends evolve.  And going to F&F is a trend that's gaining traction.

Your idea to educate the membership is a noble one.
It's also a fool's errand.
Today's "membership" has no interest in playability at the expense of aesthetics.


That's what they said about trees, and look at what's happened, club after club after club has embarked on tree removal programs.

These things take time, but, the trend is begining to gain momentum.
Unforturately, the USGA and the PGA and television need to do more on their part in terms of education and broadcasts.

Not many have any interest in playability at all.
Golf is a social outing for them.

Baloney,  I never met a golfer that didn't care about scoring lower, on a hole and round basis.

I grew up playing common bermuda in Memphis.
No golf course anywhere on Earth gets faster/firmer than common bermuda in a Memphis August.
Today,my same golf course has over-watered zoysia fairways and less-than-firm Champion greens.
Each of these is by design--the membership prefers it this way.

Southern climates have a different dynamic.
As I've indicated, it's difficult to get F&F in South Florida in the summer.
Memphis has the same problem.
But, lush, no roll fairways are not any golfers ideal.

Those currently making golf decisions at my place would consider "brown" to be an impediment to recruiting new members.

I understand that, but, BYG isn't a bad shade of green and it plays better than almost any surface.
It just takes time.
When the Open and PGA courses have that look, the apes in the hinterlands will mimic it.

The only possible reason for returning to a more sensible maintenance ideal will be budgetary.
Green Chairmen and Boards will have no alternative but to cut costs and prioritize.

Money is always a great motivator.

One of my hopes is that the Walker Cup in 2013 will be played under BYG, F&F conditions.

At my place,they'll probably forego greens rolling in favor of chilled towels at the turn.

I feel your pain !

[Jon Wiggett]

I bet the overwhelming majority of average American golfers wouldn't pay fifty bucks to play a course that looks or plays like Hoylake or Sandwich. Too much agronomic culture shock.
 

They wouldn't play it if you paid them the $50.

If Washington doesn't agree on the debt level soon maybe they won't have $50 to pay with

[Tim_Cronin]

I bet the overwhelming majority of average American golfers wouldn't pay fifty bucks to play a course that looks or plays like Hoylake or Sandwich. Too much agronomic culture shock.

Indeed they would not, unless of course it was Hoylake or Sandwich specifically. They only reason American golfers play courses that look like that in America is lack of another option.

JME you said it spot on. If given the option of Old Course playability or Augusta National aesthetics, the vast majority of American memberships and players would take the latter.

Patrick at least you now admit outright that it is a very long term process, not one that is likely to be shortened by seeing the British Open on TV from Royal St. George's; we've been seeing the British Open on TV for, what, 30, 40 years now? And yet conditions get greener every year. So, it will take a massive cultural shift in the American golfers in order for this to ever happen.

The Open's been on TV in the U.S. since 1962. No great cry yet from the punters to cut down every tree (except at Oakmont) and dig pot bunkers (except for Pete Dye). Now, if they play Old Macdonald...

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat,

Like others here I am skeptical the telecast will encouarge many Americans to appreciate brown firm and fast conditions. In part this is  due to the annual brainwashing that comes each year in April, but I believe it is also because not many Americans have played very much across the pond. So often when I have run into Americans, they are on their first (and possibly only) trip to the UK & Ireland. Most are quite happy they finally made the pilgrimage, but truthfully many feel quite out of place and uncomfortable playing the famous links courses.

Isn't brown, firm and fast links golf a bit like fine wine - you have to experience it quite a few times before you get and enjoy it?

[RJ_Daley]

The mindset of the average or typical club boards, CCFAD General Managers and ownership, or the local mom and pop are there to market, manage, grow, or succeed in keeping members, patrons, tourists, etc.  They do this in all parts of North America in a diverse set of climates, soils, and predominant turf appropriate species.  Hardly any of these locales are conducive to maintain lean and mean, without giving up the very high risk of loosing major parts of the golf season to a turf wipeout.  Without the cultural practices of fert, water, and chems, in these diverse climates and soils that are NOT links conducive (which maybe 90% of the golf locations are non-links soil and climate conducive) the superintendents best hope of keeping his/her job is to give them green, turf that doesn't risk wipe-out from being maintained lean, and the kind of firm that is more susceptible to the pressures of much use from cart traffic and many more rounds of golf played upon them. 

It seems you don't hear so much clamor for lush green from those who are fortunate enough to be in a part of the country where links soils and climate allow for the browned out or lean pale greenish-yellow patina that are achieved at the very few like the Bandon, San Hill area, Whistling St., prairie venues, or the Long Island, or sandy coastal areas where they have sandy soils and ability to go in that links-like presentation direction.

As everyone seems to be saying, the telecast isn't going to determine the direction of maintenance, the market and perception is, no matter how much people enjoy seeing the Open and its conditions, they will stick with what they know and have here. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

RJ,

Your implication is that what they have is what they've always had, and that's not the case.

Courses in NJ used to brown out every summer.

They played fast and firm and at optimal conditions when they were BYG.

Thanks to TV, automated irrigation systems and large budgets, those conditions have changed.

That doesn't prevent those conditions from reverting to their earlier but improved conditions under proper supervision.

[RJ_Daley]

Patrick, well I've never been to NJ for more than a couple of hours, and I'm surely not as old as you to remember those old NJ courses of BGYs, hard rock hard from lack of automated sprinkler systems....

I do seem to remember back when I was a lad of some courses in our area, like Lawsonia, that got summer brown and rock hard, had quick couplers to water greens and hot spots.  But, we are decades behind you east coasters, so not so far back in the good old days of yore in NJ that you were playing in your prime. 

But here is the thing, even Lawsonia didn't get the amount of play and pressure when they had it rock hard, unde- watered, and I'll bet if they tried it now, they'd risk loosing the course turf for unacceptably long multiweek periods to re-establish the turf sward after the loss.  Probably not able to really get some turf re-establishing until early fall.  People just don't want to play on a surface like we saw at Hoylake a few years ago.  They won't pay fees or dues for that.  Supers will not be employed for that.  I don't care what the catalyst is for these playing surfaces you are longing for; drought, financial meltdowns, whatever. If those conditions were to come about, golfers in numbers will not participate.  IMHO, I could be wrong. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

RJ,

Golfers tend to accept things, incrementally, not all at once.

While trees took decades to impact play, cutting them down in one fell swoop has its objectors.

Going to BYG isn't something that will happen overnight, but, with the trend to F&F, the higher cost of maintainance and the rising cost and unavailability of water, I think the trend just might take hold.

Who wouldn't want 20-30-40 more yards on their drives ?

I've noticed that F&F only seems to become a daily playing condition in the mid to late fall.

I don't see F&F in the spring or summer any more.

Actually, I never saw it in the spring in recent times.

[JMEvensky]

The mindset of the average or typical club boards are there to market, manage, grow, or succeed in keeping members 

RJ,I apologize for the selective editing but I did it to try and make a point.

IMO,there is a huge chasm between keeping existing members and recruiting new ones.Frequently,the wishes of the former are disregarded in the pursuit of the latter.

I think a lot of problems at some clubs are due to the 24/7/365 "fraternity rush" mindset.

At least in my small sampling,the biggest idiocies in course maintenance are done for the next new members.If Club X down the street does something,Club Y will do the same for fear of being seen as less attractive to new members.The existing members,who are usually happy with the status quo(after all,they're still members) just end up paying for the "improvements".

[RJ_Daley]

JME, your point is completely understandable.  The point of Pat's post just seems to me to be longing for something that isn't going to happen, based on however you wish to call it, herd mentality, conventional wisdom, monkey see- monkey do, keeping up with jones's, need to market the golf product as a game and as products that produce golf course conditions.  All of it weighs on the relentless and unyeilding desire to have green grass, with greens that hold, and fws that are lush and semi soft.  The only telecast that matters is the Masters, period.  Not even the US Open will sway them, because the general perception there is rough much longer than they'd tolerate at their courses, and greens beyond fast that they can handle, let alone greens that could survive a month of our summers.

The telecast of the B.O. is a mere yearly point of interest.  Whether it is on a relatively verdant and green RSG this year, a dust bag of dormant brown like Hoylake, or a rock hard TOC of 2000; viewers will always watch with interest and not have the slightest wish that their course mimic any of what they see at the B.O.  They will always just think... well that is what the B.O. is, and not for us, no matter the weather, resources or financial conditions.  And, they darn well will punish Supers who don't find ways to give them their green soft to semi soft courses, consistently.  Whether Pat wishes it, or warns of it coming, the firm fast lean mean, faded pales of a turf patina will be resisted and shouted doon by all decision makers, right down to the last golfer, IMO...

[JMEvensky]

RJ,I pretty much agree with you--the great unwashed masses like their courses more ANGC than anything the R and A sets up.

I think Mucci does make one very good point.If you can get people to try fast/firm,you have a shot at converting them.The problem,of course,is that most clubs will never give it a chance.

However,as I said in response to PM,I'm happy to fight right along with him.We just don't have enough manpower.The only possible paradigm changer will be budgetary.When clubs finally come to realize that a large percentage of their maintenance budget is irrelevant to playability,maybe they'll re-prioritize.

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