[Brent Carlson]

Ronald,

Fantastic photo tour of the Red.  This course very much appeals to the eye.  The mow lines, strategy, bunkers, width, etc.; just looks great.

Does the course also play relatively firm?

What Bethpage courses would you recommend for someone to get a good flavor for Tillinghast?  The Black and Red?  I would like to make the trip someday.

Regards

[Ronald Montesano]

Brent,
Thanks for the kind words. The trick to the Bethpage Quint is to know who did how much of which course and when. I haven't sorted it out (assistance always welcome) but the Yellow and Blue are definitely a blend of Tillinghast and Tull. The Yellow came after the Blue and Tull picked and chose to blend Tilly's Blue with his Yellow. As a result, you have T & T on both courses. The Green is a Dev Emmet original, yet I'm not aware of the amount of influence that Tilly exerted on the course. The Black (Rees Jones notwithstanding) is quite Tilly and the Red is probably the best example of untouched Tilly at Bethpage.

The course does play firm, especially on holes 8-11 and 12-14...when you get into the hills, the terrain and some bunkering eliminate the runner. The par threes never accept a runner, as they usually have front bunkering and valleys to traverse.

As NYS residents, we paid 43+43+43+48+70 to play the five courses. a shade under $250. I don't know the rates for non-residents. Selfishly speaking, I would say to play all five (you can do them in 3 days easily, assuming you get the times or are a single.) Getting on the Black is the key. After all, who wants to leave and say "rats, who knows when I'll be back this way...should have played such and such."

I would read some of the books on Bethpage to get a clearer sense of architectural influence, as I'm not the greatest source (but I'm learning!!)

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Ronald-

  original Routing of the Blue Course:

(Original)

Blue 1: Play current Blue Course #1
Blue 2: Play current Yellow#1 in reverse, green was located where current wide practice tee is cut in front of Yellow#1 tees
Blue 3: Play Yellow #10
Blue 4: Par 3, Play Yellow #11
Blue 5: Play Yellow #12
Blue 6: Play Yellow #13 (it appears fairway was cut to the right of current & original fairway bunker complex, tempting players to play right for       shorter approach to green)
Blue 7: Par 3, Play Yellow #14
Blue 8: Play Yellow #17
Blue 9: Play from current Yellow 18 tees, to approximately 100 yds out from current green, left side of fairway-to green site located about 100 yds in front of current Yellow 9 tee (dogleg-left; green was located in the middle of today's 9 fairway, there were/are abandoned bunkers in the natural area separating the holes)

Blue 10: par 3, played from tee located in front of grove of trees btw Yellow 8,9,18 to current Yellow 7 green
Blue 11: Play from ~20yds right of (original) Blue 10 green to current 8th green, slight dogleg left
Blue 12: Play forward tee of Yellow #4 back up corridor of Yellow #3 to green located where current Yellow #3 tee is now
Blue 13: Play from back left of Yellow 2 green to lower area in front of (current) Blue #2 tees
Blue 14: Play from bottom of hill in fron tof Blue 8 green up 8 fairway, dogleg right to green site right of current Blue 12 fairway (green site is still maintained)
Blue 15: Play current Blue 15
Blue 16: Play current Blue 16
Blue 17: Par 3, Play from front of current Blue 11th green to current Blue 17 green
Blue 18: Play from current Blue 18 tee towards current Blue 10 fairway, and back to current Blue 9 green (dogleg left)

This routing appears to traverse some of the hills in a more diagonal manner, and cross the small valley that runs across today's Blue #2, 8, 11 and 17 quite a bit.  There were a few additional bunkers on the original routing, and in some cases, based on the 1953 aerial, less in some cases (ex. 15 and 16 had less bunkers than today).  Sometimes, the current Yellow and Blue courses have some areas where you stand on a tee or look at a green and something just seems a little off.  This is why.  On the other hand, holes like 1, 3 and 5 of the current Yellow (new holes) are interesting holes, with good use of terrain and attractive bunkering. 

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Regarding the Green Course, I think 1-4, 17-18 and maybe one or two others are Tillinghast; from the aerial from the early 1950s online at historicaerials.com, it appears the course started a little ways down the road from the current clubhouse-kind of the vicinity of up the hill from current Green 6th green and Green 7th tee.  That area is now a school and I think some homes/stores. 

[Kevin Lynch]

It has been KILLING me knowing this thread had been started, but not having any time to read it and take part (after a week golfing with Ron downstate, my July 31 filing deadlines were crushing me).

I just wanted to add add a few thoughts and see if I couldn't get some additional feedback from some of the Bethpage intelligentsia (Doug / Kyle).  Thanks to both of them for their insight and already answering some questions that were eating at me since the visit.


By the way, I know Ron is far too modest to mention this, but one thing has been omitted from all three pages of his thread.  In his first time seeing the Red Course and WALKING his second 18 in 90 degree heat, Ron managed to finish in 74 strokes.  Yeah, 4 over in 18 holes while I managed to be that far over on both the 13th and 14th holes (or 31st and 32nd holes, in my own defense).  It was something special to watch.

[Kevin Lynch]

Ronald-

  original Routing of the Blue Course:

(Original)

Blue 1: Play current Blue Course #1
Blue 2: Play current Yellow#1 in reverse, green was located where current wide practice tee is cut in front of Yellow#1 tees
Blue 3: Play Yellow #10
Blue 4: Par 3, Play Yellow #11
Blue 5: Play Yellow #12
Blue 6: Play Yellow #13 (it appears fairway was cut to the right of current & original fairway bunker complex, tempting players to play right for       shorter approach to green)
Blue 7: Par 3, Play Yellow #14
Blue 8: Play Yellow #17
Blue 9: Play from current Yellow 18 tees, to approximately 100 yds out from current green, left side of fairway-to green site located about 100 yds in front of current Yellow 9 tee (dogleg-left; green was located in the middle of today's 9 fairway, there were/are abandoned bunkers in the natural area separating the holes)

Blue 10: par 3, played from tee located in front of grove of trees btw Yellow 8,9,18 to current Yellow 7 green
Blue 11: Play from ~20yds right of (original) Blue 10 green to current 8th green, slight dogleg left
Blue 12: Play forward tee of Yellow #4 back up corridor of Yellow #3 to green located where current Yellow #3 tee is now
Blue 13: Play from back left of Yellow 2 green to lower area in front of (current) Blue #2 tees
Blue 14: Play from bottom of hill in fron tof Blue 8 green up 8 fairway, dogleg right to green site right of current Blue 12 fairway (green site is still maintained)
Blue 15: Play current Blue 15
Blue 16: Play current Blue 16
Blue 17: Par 3, Play from front of current Blue 11th green to current Blue 17 green
Blue 18: Play from current Blue 18 tee towards current Blue 10 fairway, and back to current Blue 9 green (dogleg left)

This routing appears to traverse some of the hills in a more diagonal manner, and cross the small valley that runs across today's Blue #2, 8, 11 and 17 quite a bit.  There were a few additional bunkers on the original routing, and in some cases, based on the 1953 aerial, less in some cases (ex. 15 and 16 had less bunkers than today).  Sometimes, the current Yellow and Blue courses have some areas where you stand on a tee or look at a green and something just seems a little off.  This is why.  On the other hand, holes like 1, 3 and 5 of the current Yellow (new holes) are interesting holes, with good use of terrain and attractive bunkering. 

Doug,

I can’t thank you enough for that step-by-step walkthrough of the Blue/Yellow mix.  I was going to start a separate thread asking about the evolution, but you answered it for us.  Simply put, that was fascinating to see and it explained a number of “oddities” we noticed during the rounds.  I was sitting here moving the slider from 1953 to 2006 on Historic Aerials and kept uttering “well, I’ll be damned!”  A few thoughts / questions:

1938 Aerial?
Does anyone have access to the 1938 Aerial which hangs in the Clubhouse?  We noticed it on our last night there, but I didn’t have the time to absorb it all.  I would love to get a copy of that if anyone has a source.

1953 Aerial – Preliminary Yellow Holes?
In the 1953 aerial, it appears that there are a number of “rough” holes that are already carved out beyond the limits of the Old Blue 7/8 (Yellow 14 and 17).  This is the area to the left of what appears to be a service road.  These match up to Current Yellow 5/6/15/16 and Current Blue 4/5/6.

Since the Yellow was not completed until 1958, can you shed some light on these holes?  Did construction start as early as 1953 or were these additional holes that had been around for years?  I vaguely recall reading that Tillinghast has also designed an extra 9 holes (i.e. there were 81 holes for a while), but I wasn’t sure if that was correct.  I suppose the 1938 aerial would help answer that question.

Current Yellow 7/8/9 Stretch
I wondered why there was such a wide open space on #8 for such a short hole, why the 9th tee shot felt so awkward, and I sensed that the 7th green has a different “look” than the other 3s.  Now it makes a bit more sense

Old Blue 5 / Current Yellow 12
When we left Yellow 11, it looked like this was going to be a neat centerline hazard / split fairway.  When we played it, we could not figure out any reason to play towards the right fairway.  Ron found an article which discussed this hole as one of Tillinghast’s “Reef” holes, but it would seem to me that this would require a diagonal hazard which completely crosses what is now the left/straight approach.  If there was a horrible cross bunker or the mound was maintained with tall grass, I could understand why someone may play off to the right side (with the price being a semi-blind approach over a right/front greenside bunker.  But as it currently is maintained, it doesn’t make sense at all. 

The 1953 Aerial seems to show the “left opening” being much more “pinched” between the mound and left FW bunker.  Any additional insights?

[Kevin Lynch]

Bethpage Red~Hole # 6...Par 4: 350\338\322...One of the more unique Tillinghast holes, this "C" shaped par four is so much more curved than a typical dogleg. The proper play is to come in from the high, right side and avoid the "line of charm." The fairway slopes pronouncedly from right to left, speeding the delivery of off-line balls to the woods off the tee or the high, thick fescue or bunker to the left of the green. The hole, ultimately, reminds me of a banked race track, such is the curvature. It represents a perfect alternative to a menacing, punitive dogleg. The fairway is ample, but the increased distance from the far side of the fairway increases the challenge of delivering the approach. Currently, the green site has a chipping bail-out on the right, for those who decide to avoid dead left at all costs.


Up Center of Fairway

What I found most interesting about this hole was the complete juxtaposition between the left / long area around the green vs. the area to the right.  The former is rugged, dirty and nasty, while the right chipping area is pristine.  Most people don’t get the opportunity to experience both areas in the same play unless they badly thin their first recovery attempt (how’s that for finding the silver lining in a post-birdie F-up?).

[Kevin Lynch]

Regarding the Green Course, I think 1-4, 17-18 and maybe one or two others are Tillinghast; from the aerial from the early 1950s online at historicaerials.com, it appears the course started a little ways down the road from the current clubhouse-kind of the vicinity of up the hill from current Green 6th green and Green 7th tee.  That area is now a school and I think some homes/stores. 

I will need to align the Historic Aerials.  If you have any other links on the history between the Emmet and Tillinghast work, I would be grateful

[Kevin Lynch]

Ronald:

Your thought of the Black reigning supreme from the first on out will meet with some discussion from me.

I hope you're not just saying that to incite debate.

Kyle

I don't think Ron was just trying to incite debate with that comment.  His comment was not a reflection on the Red as much as admiration for the Black.  On our return drive, we were compiling a list of the "All Bethpage All-Star Nominated" holes.  We did it because we thought many of the other courses may be underappreciated.  So we worked through the non-Black courses and had a number of worthy nominees.

But as we walked through the Black, it was very difficult for us to find many holes at the Black that weren’t worthy.  #1 was out, and 18 was out.  Still,  I think 18 was out only because we had higher expectations as a finishing hole – it’s still a pretty darn good hole anywhere else on a course.  I think that’s why our alternate routing kept B18 as the 16th, and let R1/18 serve as the finishing holes.

[Kevin Lynch]

For me the only good to great hole in that stretch on the Black is 11. 10, 12, and now especially 13 are just long and boring with no real mental challenge or need to play down the edges or fight for position/angles off the tee. B12 is so long now that taking on the hazard isn't much of a penalty as it just swings the hole to the 0.5 strokes above the Par 4.5. B10 is crush a drive or lay up, etc.

The equivalent stretch on the Red is the inverse, with 9, 10, 12 and 13 providing much interest and variety of play day to day depending on how the game is going. There is no tee shot quite like R9 on the Black, even on the untouchable fifth.

Thanks for the impassioned insight on the Red vs. Black.  I completely agree with you that the obsession with length at the Black has ruined many of the great diagonal driving areas and eliminated the related strategy.  There is little risk now of driving through the landing areas to the far rough, so driver strategy becomes one-dimensional, especially on B13 (as you indicated).

I remember first playing B13 and asking how I could get home in two.  The response was to hit a long drive but hug the right side (or else you’d run through the fairway).  Now, the only way to get home is to have the 270 yard three-wood in your arsenal after a long-straight drive.

[Kevin Lynch]

I think I would recall 15 more fondly if it typically didn't mark the 5 hr point in my Red round

First of 4 really good finishing holes...I'm hopeful that someday I'll get to experience them all in actual daylight.

For some reason I'm never comfortable on tee on 15 but I really like the approach into this very good green.

Chris,

Unfortunately, we were at the 5 hour mark as well by then.  I’ve played the Red twice, and both times were north of 5.5 hours.

The foursome of kids in front of us felt compelled to play the Tips at 7,100 yards, while one guy hit no less than 8 squirters off the tee.  As we neared every green, we'd see them congregated in an area 70-100 yards off the tee, directly to the right. 

The Park needs to seriously consider adding a 4th set of tees for the Red.  Even from the shortest Men’s tees (White – the Red Tees don’t even list a Men’s Rating / Slope), this is still a 6,600 yard course.  When you consider that it’s only a Par 70, that 6,600 is deceptively understated.  Numbers 9, 10, 11, 14, and 15 is a murderous stretch of post-400 yard par 4s, with only the 13th breaking the pattern, but that has its own ass-kicking qualities.

I’d suggest painting the Red Tees a different color to save people’s egos and provide a 6,200 yard option for the “average” male public golfer while adding an even shorter set of Red tees.  At the very least, provide a Men’s Slope/Rating for the Red Tees so people can argue that they weren’t playing the “Ladies Tees.”  Besides, I’d imagine the Ladies would appreciate a realistic set of tees short of 6,200 yards as an option.

Perhaps having a more reasonable option may do something to help the pace of play.  Of course, nothing was going to stop the idiots in front of us from ignoring reality and playing the tips.
 

[Ronald Montesano]

The park needs to seriously consider adding rangers with itchy trigger fingers.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

The park needs to seriously consider adding rangers with itchy trigger fingers.

Ronald,  this is nothing new.  I'm not old,(34) have been playing at BSP since around 2001/2002, and in my experience, the rangers have always been primarily ceremonial figures-

Skill vs. architecture is another topic for another time, or thread.  There are instances of this all over the park, meaning, the less-skilled player biting off more than they can chew, and it makes it less fun to play.  Who wants to wait 5-10 minutes on every shot, not including the walk to the ball?  (Don't laugh, it's happened to me on Green Course, the Monday after Shinnecock in 04).  But, I'll distill my comments into a few words: Play early or go elsewhere. 

Quick story: in May of 08, a Saturday, I was going to play Red--I was in New Hyde Park, about 25 minutes away (West) by car.  The wait was something like 2 hours, at 2pm.  I called Tallgrass, drove the hour out there, got right out on the 1st tee, played in about 3 hours (even joining up with a twosome somewhere around 9th hole) and was back to my relatives' house in time for dinner--it sounds like sour grapes, but it's not, it's just the reality of the situation.  Too crowded for me to be enjoyable anymore.  I'm not that patient, nor do I have the luxury, of pissing away 7 hours on a round of golf. 

[Kevin Lynch]

Skill vs. architecture is another topic for another time, or thread.  There are instances of this all over the park, meaning, the less-skilled player biting off more than they can chew, and it makes it less fun to play.  Who wants to wait 5-10 minutes on every shot, not including the walk to the ball?  (Don't laugh, it's happened to me on Green Course, the Monday after Shinnecock in 04).  But, I'll distill my comments into a few words: Play early or go elsewhere. 

I'm not so sure it's skill vs. architecture - it's just simply volume.  We played all 5 courses, and our times were:
Yellow: 7:00 AM - 4:55
Red:  2:15 PM - 5:50
Black: 7:30 AM - 4:55
Blue:  9:00 AM - 4:50
Green: 3:15 PM - 3:05 even with a few waits (nice to know we can still get around when there's only a few groups ahead of you).


If you have solid foursomes all day, there's just no way you can avoid having at least one bottleneck without active rangers.

[Kevin Pallier]

Ronald

Thanks for the tour - Bethpage (Red) is a bit like Merion (West) for mine - overshadowed by it's more renowned sibling.

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