Bethpage Red: A Photo Peregrination (Holes 1-18 On Line)

[Ronald Montesano]

Bethpage Red~Hole # 10...Par 4: 446\402\388...This one has a deeper tee, at 495 or so, making it a true 4.5, even for the professional. Much like # 8, the idea is to play up the left side, away from the trouble. One of our guys hit an absolute bomb and had 8 or 9 iron in. I believe that, much like #8, I could not avoid the line of charm and ended in the right-side bunker. The sand on the Red was fair to play from, so I got that one out near the green and may have saved par with a chip and putt. The Red gives you plenty of room for the tee ball, so you should have a crack at the green. What it warns you against, subtly, is challenging the green when you are woefully out of position. Then, you take your medicine and depend on a one-putt for par.

From The Tee


Closer From The Tee


From The Inside Corner Of The Dogleg


Closer From The Inside Corner Of The Dogleg

[Ronald Montesano]

Bethpage Red~Hole # 11...Par 4: 432\418\400...After the pair of brutes at 9 & 10, 11 might seem like a breather, but she ain't. 11 is the third of four left-to-right sliders over a four-hole stretch. I don't recall a straight-shot hole beyond the two par threes on the inward half, and even those two favor moving the ball from one side to the other. Clearly a product of his shot-shaping time, Tillinghast made his demands apparent.

From The Tee Deck


Closer From The Tee Deck


From The Dogleg Bend


Closer From The Dogleg

[Ronald Montesano]

Bethpage Red~Hole # 12...Par 3: 208\179\165...This turns out to be one of the lesser photo angles I have. When I took the shot, the dolts on the green had been looking in the pampas off to the left for the chief dolt's ball for 4-5 minutes. The group ahead of us was on the tee, waiting. The group behind us was closing fast. None was using a rangefinder. The hole plays mostly straight-on from tee to green, although you should aim at the right edge if you want to chase one on. There is bunkering on both sides of the putting surface and truly wayward shots will meet their truly-deserved demise. This is a solid par three that provides the opportunity to club down and bounce an accurate ball in from the right.

Shot from the 11th green


Closer In


Way Back

[Ronald Montesano]

Bethpage Red~Hole # 13...Par 4: 400\386\370...A controversial, strategic, challenging hole. This split-fairway par four plays around an enormous Principal's Nose in the fairway center...easily 75 yards in distance, there is no carrying this schnozz! The safe drive plays out to the right, leaving the challenging approach. The daring drive takes the left tack, leaving an open-front entry to a really well-bunkered putting surface. The green itself has movement enough to qualify this par four as the most complete hole, from tee to green inclusive, on the entire course. I apologize in advance for the lack of images from the left fairway option. If anyone has one, please add it or send me the link and I will add it. You'll get the idea of the open-front entry from the shots I have.

From The Tee {left-fairway drives should aim at the right edge of the visible sand left}


Closer From Tee


The Schnozz


Shot To Green If You Foozle One Short {as I did}


Approach From Right Side


Right Green Bunkers {truly, a beautiful bouquet}


Best Example Of The Open Left-Front Entry

[Doug Braunsdorf]

This is a hole that I'm surprised hasn't attracted more controversy.  It's, IMO, outstanding.  Options abound here.  From the tee, the golfer can:

-Lay up short of the bunker in the middle of the fairway, this is about 230 yards from the tee
-Play to the right, and have to contend with threading the needle between the bunker left and rough and fescues right (if you really lose one)
-Play to the left, a blind shot over some mounds and bunkers, and try to place the ball between bunkers right and rough left.  This is the option that yields the best angle to the green. 

The green, set on a severe angle to the line of play, is very tough to hit and hold from the right or from center.  The golfer can lay up short, and try to get up and down, but the green features ample slope to it and pitching from the right usually cause the ball to run away from you, quickly. 

I think the most prudent play here, if not in the correct portion of the fairway, is to try to play a cut to the front of the green or just short, favoring the left side. 

IIRC, some of the trees on the left side of the fairway could be cut back a little, as they imping on the fairway slightly. 

[Doug Braunsdorf]

The aspect I neglected to add to this is the flag is visible from the tee, peeking above the large center bunker complex, and serves to draw players in that direction.  This is the case on a number of holes on this part of the property and is also evident on #9, sometimes on #8 and #10. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Doug,
I believe that #13 is the epitome of the "you need to play it 4-5 times before you render a decision" ... hole. I would love to have stopped then and there and played it another 4 times, if only for the putting and surrounds. Knowing that you cannot go over The Schnozz, you elect left or right. I attempted to go right and foozled, leaving 5-iron in. Knowing what I saw, I would go for left the next time and probably every other time.

[Matthew Petersen]

Why is 13 controversial? Looks like an excellent hole with options off the tee. Does anyone dislike it? Why?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Why is 13 controversial? Looks like an excellent hole with options off the tee. Does anyone dislike it? Why?

Matthew,  I'm saying controversial in the sense of, from my experience, the average golfer (not like us) not liking the split fairway, having to think, expecting four mediocre shots to be an automatic four, etc. 

I think the hole is great-outstanding, as I said 2 posts down.  I do think it could benefit from some tree trimming up the left side, but the center bunkers add much interest to a flat area of the property.  I seem to recall, and may be mistaken, that, in an old, old aerial, I didn't see the area to right side of the bunkers mowed as fairway. 

Where's Phil Young when we need him?

[Chris DeNigris]

I LOVE R13! Probably tied with 18 as my favorite on the course.

First time I played it I had no clue what was up ahead and hit big pull hook left. Dismayed at the prospect of another lost ball I was pleasantly surprised to find myself on short grass with an easy 8 iron approach to an otherwise tough green to hit.  The next 2 times I intentionally played left with mixed results. The center bunkers are gnarly and penal but a great target for those like me who rarely hit what they're aiming at with driver.

As far as the preceding 5 hole stretch...I think it aptly defines the Red. Very solid par 4s and a really good 3. The down check for me regarding 8-11 is that they're all slightly L-R doglegs on similar flat ground. I give the Black more credit when it hits it's flat terrain section because I think there's more interesting stuff going on in B10-13.

Thanks again Ron for the terrific thread!

[Kyle Harris]

As far as the preceding 5 hole stretch...I think it aptly defines the Red. Very solid par 4s and a really good 3. The down check for me regarding 8-11 is that they're all slightly L-R doglegs on similar flat ground. I give the Black more credit when it hits it's flat terrain section because I think there's more interesting stuff going on in B10-13.

I couldn't disagree more, frankly.

For me the only good to great hole in that stretch on the Black is 11. 10, 12, and now especially 13 are just long and boring with no real mental challenge or need to play down the edges or fight for position/angles off the tee. B12 is so long now that taking on the hazard isn't much of a penalty as it just swings the hole to the 0.5 strokes above the Par 4.5. B10 is crush a drive or lay up, etc.

The equivalent stretch on the Red is the inverse, with 9, 10, 12 and 13 providing much interest and variety of play day to day depending on how the game is going. There is no tee shot quite like R9 on the Black, even on the untouchable fifth.

[Ronald Montesano]

Chris, you are welcome, but #9 is a big-arse right to left swinger...t'ain't nothing left to right about it. 8=l2r; 9=r2l; 10=l2r; 11=l2r; (skip 12=par 3) 13=r2l

[Chris DeNigris]

Kyle- It's good to disagree! However I was comparing R8-11 with B10-13....I made a special point to distinguish R12 and 13 as wonderful holes.

I don't play from the tips so none of the 4 Black holes are too long unless into the wind...especially 13, which I happen to like, new bunker work notwithstanding. 10 and 12 are every bit as reachable as R1 with a properly placed drive.

[Chris DeNigris]

Ron- oops...that's what limited play and a bad memory will do At least I got the dogleg part right.

Again, I like each of those 4 holes it's just that for me they're somewhat indistinguishable.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle- It's good to disagree! However I was comparing R8-11 with B10-13....I made a special point to distinguish R12 and 13 as wonderful holes.

I don't play from the tips so none of the 4 Black holes are too long unless into the wind...especially 13, which I happen to like, new bunker work notwithstanding. 10 and 12 are every bit as reachable as R1 with a properly placed drive.

Well, I think adding R8 to the mix tilts the balance more in the Red Course's favor, so there!

:p

Playing the equivalent tees on the Red to the Black, I still think the Red has a slight edge and here's why - the further down the fairway one plays on holes like R9 and R10, the more one has to take on the hazards to find the fairway. The tee shots on B10 and B12, for instance, do not place this demand on the golfer. 

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Kyle- It's good to disagree! However I was comparing R8-11 with B10-13....I made a special point to distinguish R12 and 13 as wonderful holes.

I don't play from the tips so none of the 4 Black holes are too long unless into the wind...especially 13, which I happen to like, new bunker work notwithstanding. 10 and 12 are every bit as reachable as R1 with a properly placed drive.

Well, I think adding R8 to the mix tilts the balance more in the Red Course's favor, so there!

:p

Playing the equivalent tees on the Red to the Black, I still think the Red has a slight edge and here's why - the further down the fairway one plays on holes like R9 and R10, the more one has to take on the hazards to find the fairway. The tee shots on B10 and B12, for instance, do not place this demand on the golfer. 

Kyle, but then, aren't we comparing apples and oranges?  (Oranjes?) Qualifying this by saying, Red is Tillinghast, and Black is Tillinghast/Jones--bunkers were changed, mowing pattens changed--as you know, I am a big, big fan of the Red course. 

What do you think?  Your point of view is valid, I just wonder, it's hard to say, do we look for original intent or look at what is on the ground now?

[Phil McDade]

There have been some interesting discussions of Principal's Nose bunkering on GCA over the years, and #13 captures what the strategy (as opposed to the "look") of what a PN bunker scheme is all about -- options off the tee, with the more daring route (in this case, left of the bunkers) resulting in a more favorable approach.

[Ronald Montesano]

Bethpage Red~ Hole # 14...Par 4: 435/421/407...We played this rugged bastard into the teeth of a howling wind. If you have that same good fortune, play out to the right, to avoid the acre of despair that runs up the entire left side of the hole (avoid the polo grounds on the right, too, as they are out of bounds.) This hole is the final member of the "Flat Red" society, as the run from 15-18 brings us back to the hillier terrain. #14 also may be the best combination of stern, fair and architecturally-sound in the flat stretch.The hole is plain jane up the right and amazingly fescued and bunkered up the left. The fairway is wider than wide, so if you miss it, look at the man in the mirror. The green is sizeable and tumbling, so enjoy your putting adventure as well. Ultimately, it's a 4.75, so take your 5 (as I did) and walk to the 15th tee/halfway house (which you also saw on the 10th tee) with a smile and a step.

From The Tee


Closer From The Tee


Deep From The Fairway Bend


Closer From The Fairway Bend


Yet Another Reason for playing the hole up the right side

[Ronald Montesano]

Bethpage Red~Hole # 15...Par 4: 452\438\424...If the previous stretch hadn't been so challenging, you'd talk about the climb home that starts at #15. Actually, you still can, as the previous 7 holes are all flat. Fifteen is as good a par four as you find at Bethpage. If you go up the right side at all, you are boxed out by trees and need to hit a left to right slider to get up near the green (or a punch runner that gets a great first hop.) As with the fair Tilly, if he kills you from tee to green, he usually lets you slide on the green, and vice-versa. Such a good hole, such a good green, such a terrific fairway.

From The Tee


Closer From The Tee...See the trees on the right?


Fairway Right...About where my tee ball finished


A Wee Different Angle In


What You See If You Lay Up

[Chris DeNigris]

I think I would recall 15 more fondly if it typically didn't mark the 5 hr point in my Red round

First of 4 really good finishing holes...I'm hopeful that someday I'll get to experience them all in actual daylight.

For some reason I'm never comfortable on tee on 15 but I really like the approach into this very good green.

[Ronald Montesano]

Bethpage Red~Hole # 16...Par 5: 565\521\477...What appears to be a common drive leads to a memorable ascent to a well-tucked putting surface. The longer hitter is again tempted to cut a corner; the results are not propitious. As Ricky Van Shelton implored, keep it between the lines. Play three metal if you must (my driver went through the fairway, into the first, light cut of rough) but don't cut that corner. Unless you're in the biz of hitting 280-yard three metals, lay up to a nice, full wedge distance. It is nearer to the green that the bunkers mess not only with your mind and eyes, but with your lie, also.

From The Tee


Closer From The Tee (those carts on on their 5th/6th shot...those guys blew chunks!)


Inside Corner At Dog's Leg


Closer...


CLOSER...


CLOSER! (now you see that the seeing-eye bunker is on the right edge, not the center of the fairway)


Last Shot, about 120 yards out

[Kyle Harris]

R15 is the hole that seals with deal of the Red Course's superiority over the Black. Frankly, it does a better job of placing the shot demands on the golfer that B5 does, with far less drastic penalties. R15 is a far more TEMPTING hole.

The better player's ideal strategy on R16 is to attempt to cut the corner as the benefits are plenty, and the recovery from a miss requires some skillful execution and creativity. Another very good tempting hole.

[Ronald Montesano]

R15 is not nearly as penal as B5, Kyle. The wall of doom that fronts B5 forces you to lay far enough back to have a spinnable wedge, with no hope of a runner. In contrast, R15 allows you to putt your way to the green, should you opt in that direction. You won't lose a ball on R15, as you certainly might on B5. Ultimately, it comes down to much versus little punishment for the wayward shot; for the daily player, R15 works out better than B5.

[Ronald Montesano]

Bethpage Red~Hole # 17...Par 3: 165\160\144...The end is nigh. The penultimate hole, similar to #7, traverses a left to right valley with a typically-Tilly fronting hazard running the length of the diagonally-placed green. There is a front-left tongue that I would like to see mowed as green, rather than fairway. This would offer a few more interesting pin positions.

From Tee Deck


Closer From Tee Deck


Closest From Tee Deck

[Ronald Montesano]

Bethpage Red~Hole # 18...Par 4: 424\387\373...The controversial hole, the one that had people in 2002 saying "This is a better finisher than than the 18th on the Black." It has more length, more horizontal movement, similar vertical movement, less bunkering and less seating room around the 18th green, although oodles more to the lower left of the fairway. We came up with a shuttle-assisted routing that would eliminate two flat holes on the Black and replace them with 1 and 18 on the Red...it was a fun exercise. Here goes...Dogleg right from on high, avoid the few bunkers left and right, ample landing area, don't challenge the bunker on the right. From approach, take enough club, as green slope well toward front at back. Short is sand or awkward pitch. Big breakers from both sides on green. Would be a fun place with a six-pack at 8 p.m. to settle bets.

From Tee Deck


Closer From Tee Deck


Even Closer, Left Side Eliminated


Left Side Of Fairway


Closer From Left


Closest From Left