[Tom_Doak]

[EDIT:  See my post #32]

The thread where everyone posts their top ten courses built since 1995 is interesting, but it's also pointless, since some of the courses have been seen by many more raters than others.

How else to approach it?

Let's try it again, using the 3-star Michelin system.  Rate all of the top modern courses you've seen, and assign them from one to three stars as follows:

*** - absolutely at the top of the list, or tied for it [don't use this for more than 5 courses]
**   - you think this would be a top ten modern course, if you had seen them all
*     - noteworthy, but not likely among the top ten overall
0     - not in the same league as the rest

Then we could compute the average score for each of the courses mentioned, if we wanted to; but the star ratings would be more meaningful than the top 10 lists.

[Shane Wright]

Tom - I like the idea, however, if this idea were to be marketed, I think it would be a better use to spread out the stars to at least a 5 star rating scale.  I love the three 1.5 star rated courses I have but for the golfer with less course education than us geeks, 1.5 stars sure sounds pretty lame.

My list in order:

1. Pacific Dunes - 3 stars
2. Ballyneal - 3 stars
3. Sand Hills - 3 stars
4. Kingsbarns - 2 stars
5. European Club 1.5 stars
6. Bandon Dunes 1.5 stars
7. Bandon Trails 1.5 stars
8. Harvester - 1
9. Giants Ridge - 1
10. Windsong Farm - .5

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Pacific Dunes- ***
Bandon Dunes- *
Bandon Trails- *
Old Macdonald- **
Eagle Point- *
Whistling Straits- *
Pinehurst #8- 0
Forest Creek (Both)- 0
Tobacco Road- *
Royal New Kent- *
All other Mike Strantz courses- 0
World Woods (Pine Barrens)- *
Riverfront- 0

I think thats all the post-modern courses I have seen, at least all the ones of any possible note.

[Ed Oden]

Tom, I need to see Friars Head again to decide whether it is a *** or **.  So I have given it a **1/2 for now.  Here is the rest of my list:

1. Pacific Dunes ***
2. Sand Hills***
3. Ballyneal***
4. Old Macdonald***
5. Friars Head**1/2
6. Bandon Trails**
7. Dallas National*
8. Dormie Club*
9. Bandon Dunes*
10. Diamond Creek*

[JC Jones]

Ed,

Curious to know why Bandon Dunes would receive a * when it is architecturally unremarkable and I have to imagine you've seen more courses built since 1995 more worth of a * than Bandon Dunes.

[JC Jones]

Hidden Creek*
Pacific Dunes***
Kingsley Club***
Greywalls*
Forest Dunes*

I only listed the ones that I thought were worthy of a *, there were several that would be 0's.

[John Kavanaugh]

Doak wants you to list every modern era course you have played in case one mans zero is another mans three.  Remember the kid last year who said Sand Hills was a Doak 5.  We would have never learned that looking at his top 10 assuming he had never played there.

I can not participate as I have no idea which courses I have played or not in the last 43 years.  It would be like being able to name all the restaurants where I have eaten.

[Ed Oden]

Ed,

Curious to know why Bandon Dunes would receive a * when it is architecturally unremarkable and I have to imagine you've seen more courses built since 1995 more worth of a * than Bandon Dunes.

Jason, I wasn't that impressed with Bandon Dunes the first go around.  But after 4 plays, my respect has grown significantly.  In my opinion, it is a very good course, albeit my least favorite at the resort.  Here are the next half dozen courses (in no order) on my post-1995 list:  Whistling Straits, Chechessee, Sage Valley, Atlantic, Eagle Point.  Are any of those better than Bandon Dunes?  I don't think so.  Remember, there are a bunch of top notch courses on Golfweek's modern list that aren't eligible since they predate the 1995 threshhold.

[John Kirk]

Good question for me; I've played quite a few moderns.  Not Matt Ward numbers, mind you.  In no particular order:

Ballyneal  ***
Pacific Dunes  ***
Sand Hills  ***
Kinloch  **
Bandon Trails  **

Old Macdonald  **
Friar's Head  **
Rock Creek Cattle Co.  **
Bandon Dunes  **

I can't decide who to put at #10.  Four or five courses are about equal in my book, including Boston Golf Club and Pronghorn (Nicklaus), which is a very interesting test of one's shotmaking and ballstriking skills.

Post modified to the new criteria.  Like the simple ratings suggested.  Others are *.

[Doug_Feeney]

I can not participate as I have no idea which courses I have played or not in the last 43 years.  

The good news is that for this exercise you only need to remember back 16 years.  Still no small task I understand 

[Sean_A]

I don't see that many modern courses, but here goes (including significant redos of courses)

Kiawah TOC 1*
Tobacco Road 1*
Bearwood Lakes 0, but still recommended
The Players Club - Stranahan 0, but still recommended
Lederach 0, but still recommended
Bulls Bay 1*
Shepherd's Hollow 0, but still recommended
Enniscrone 1*
______________________________________
Praia del Rey (not recommended)
PGA Catalunya (not recommended)

Ciao

[David Kelly]

A baker's dozen by star ratings

Barnbougle Dunes ***
Sand Hills ***
Ballyneal ***
Pacific Dunes ***

Old Macdonald **
Castle Stuart **
Friars Head **
Rustic Canyon **
Lost Farm **

Kingsley Club*
Cape Kidnappers *
Rock Creek Cattle Co. *
Bandon Trails *

[Scott Warren]

David K: No love for St Andrews Beach or Kinloch?

For mine:

***
Barnbougle Dunes

**
St Andrews Beach
Barnbougle Lost Farm

*
The Renaissance Club
Praia d'el Rey
Casa Serena

0
Batchworth Park
Druids Glen
Terrey Hills

There are others I wouldn't even include in that bottom grouping.

[Daryl David]

Ballyneal***
Pacific  Dunes***
Sand Hills***

Kingsbarns**
European Club**
Bandon Dunes**

Chambers Bay*
Renaissance Club*
Colorado Golf Club*
Bandon Trails*

[Mike Erdmann]

Sand Hills  ***
Pacific Dunes  ***
Old Macdonald  ***

Sebonack  **
Friar's Head  **
Bandon Dunes  **

Kingsbarns  *
Bandon Trails  *
Chambers Bay *
Rustic Canyon *

[Kevin Pallier]

***
Sand Hills
Pacific Dunes
Old Macdonald

**
Barnbougle Dunes
Friars Head
California Club
Bandon Trails

*
St Andrews Beach
Barnbougle Lost Farm
National (Moonah)
Kennedy Bay
Kingsbarns

0
Lots....

[Carl Rogers]

I would like to suggest another approach to this.  It is similar to the teaching of Architectural (building) history in which styles or ideas have a beginning point, development point, a culmination point, an over the top point and finally a passe - cliche point ... and then something may be begin to be recognized leading to something else during that process of the former style.

I am not sure what topics - ideas and how their representative course(s) would exactly fit in.  There are always outliers.

Would some of you say that we are approaching the culmination point in the "minimilist movement"?

Would an emerging style be the "affordable - grunge - ultra simple" to respond to new economic and environmental realities?

Would the late Mike Strantz represent an outlier?

Would Whistling Straits represent the over the top?

[JNC Lyon]

I'll try again with my list from the other thread:

Ballyneal***
Renaissance**
Dismal River**
Inniscrone*
The Ocean Course at Kiawah*
May River*
Ledearch(1/2)--I'd like to have a KBM course in my top 10-20, but the houses here detract.
Morgan Hill
Long Shadow
Galloway National

Bottom Line: I need to play more of the best modern courses.  Unfortunately, most of them are a long way from Rochester, but I'll get there, soon enough.

[Scott Warren]

Daryl David:

The European Club is pre-1995. If it were post 95 I'd give it a 0.

[Pete Lavallee]

Pacific Dunes ***
Ballyneal ***
Barnbougle Dunes ***

Bandon Trails **
Chambers Bay **
Rustic Canyon **
Old Macdonald **

Bandon Dunes *
Stone Eagle *
Cuscowilla *
Wild Horse *
Kiawah Ocean *
We Ko Pa Saguaro *
Longshadow *
Pine Barrens *
Barona Creek *

Black Mesa 0
Rolling Oaks 0
Waverly Oaks 0
Eagle Crest 0

[Dan Kelly]

*** - absolutely at the top of the list, or tied for it [don't use this for more than 5 courses]
**   - you think this would be a top ten modern course, if you had seen them all
*     - noteworthy, but not likely among the top ten overall

Why focus on 10? And: Why speculate?

Why not follow the Michelin system as Michelin follows it?

From wikipedia:

"The guide awards one to three stars to a small number of restaurants of outstanding quality. One star indicates a "very good cuisine in its category", a two-star ranking represents "excellent cuisine, worth a detour," and three stars are awarded to restaurants offering "exceptional cuisine, worth a special journey". A three-star Michelin ranking is rare. As of late 2009, there were 26 three-star restaurants in France, and only 81 in the world.[8]"

Maybe there are 10 3-star courses built since 1995. Maybe there aren't any.

I suppose it all depends on who's doing the journeying and the detouring -- but still, Michelin's idea makes more sense to me.

[Tim Bert]

Tom - this isn't going to work either the way it has been started because everyone interpreted your post differently.  Many are still posting only their top 10 courses and putting stars by them which isn't going to solve the problem of the first thread. 

On the other end of the spectrum, JaKa seems to think 1995 was 43 years ago.

Someone is going to have to create a spreadsheet with all the post-moderns and have everyone vote for everyone they've played if this is to have any value.

[Tom_Doak]

Why focus on 10? And: Why speculate?

Why not follow the Michelin system as Michelin follows it?

From wikipedia:

"The guide awards one to three stars to a small number of restaurants of outstanding quality. One star indicates a "very good cuisine in its category", a two-star ranking represents "excellent cuisine, worth a detour," and three stars are awarded to restaurants offering "exceptional cuisine, worth a special journey". A three-star Michelin ranking is rare. As of late 2009, there were 26 three-star restaurants in France, and only 81 in the world.[8]"

Maybe there are 10 3-star courses built since 1995. Maybe there aren't any.

I suppose it all depends on who's doing the journeying and the detouring -- but still, Michelin's idea makes more sense to me.

Dan:

I only suggested the top 5 / top 10 cutoffs to make people focus a bit.  The difficult part of these rankings is that there are a lot of people who don't know what a *** restaurant (or golf course) is, so you get too many high votes from people who are less well traveled, and that skews the results.  Plus, what we were trying for is a top ten list, based on the other thread ... so if there are no *** modern courses, fine, but there is still a top ten of ** courses.

I don't know exactly how Michelin works, but I tend to doubt that a three-star Michelin rating is the average of a bunch of different voters; I suspect they reserve the third star for a select group of editors to award.

[Steve_Roths]

Wow, no Old Sandwich in the mix at all? 

[Jud_T]

Yes the *** Michelin rating is very hard to come by and handed out in very small doses.  For instance, Chicago, which has one of the biggest foodie scenes in the world these days, has exactly 2 3-star designations, which is 1 too many in my book...

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