News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
If you were going to restore a golden age course without a design pedigree, but wanted it to look the part of a good Golden Age course, what features would you put in the bunkers, greens, maybe even tees to convince people that it might actually have been untouched since originally built in the 1920's?

I know its a broad question, but hopefully, worth a shot from at least a few.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
I would misalign the square tees to aim the player towards hazards.  A simple timeless trick!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
One feature that stands out at my club, which couldn't better be described as a relatively untouched golden age course with no design pedigree, is irregular, or rumpled fairways.  It seems on many contemporary courses the fairways are obviously graded and smoothed.  I don't think this would have been the case on a modest course of that era.

Similarly, because there's no or little intentional mounding in the fairways or green surrounds on our course, at least, there's little gathering effect.  Balls bound where they will, unless there's a natural feature like a punchbowl that collects.

On greens, push-up greens are not uncommon.  As with the fairways, I would expect more irregular, micro breaks within the greens, and fewer broad sweeping contours.  Also, I would expect more concave greens, and more back-to-front greens.  If my course is any example, if the ground gave good enough motion as is, it was used as is.  If it didn't, push some dirt up in a mound and make that the green.

The better golden era courses I've seen use visual deception regularly, with infinity greens, top shot bunkers that create blind landing zones, guardian bunkers set well forward of greens, etc.  A common bunker shape I've seen is a rectangular bunker with a built up mounded face.  One can imagine the dirt was shoveled out, forward, and up, then regrassed.

Finally, I've seen a number of courses with contrived, but artful, hazards, notably on Par-3's, like a ring of bunkers like a pearl necklace, or the moat style bunkering of a short hole.  Rectangular greens show up, too.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
If you were going to restore a golden age course without a design pedigree, but wanted it to look the part of a good Golden Age course, what features would you put in the bunkers, greens, maybe even tees to convince people that it might actually have been untouched since originally built in the 1920's?

I know its a broad question, but hopefully, worth a shot from at least a few.

Jeff,

I recently played a MSP course which was designed in the mid-1950's by Robert Bruce Harris, but was renovated/redesigned by John Fought a few years ago. I never played the course prior to renovation, but by the look of pictures of the old course Fought built in quite a few "classical" features into the course.

Amoung them:

Grass faced bunkers - An architect may correct me on this one, but I've seen more and more renovated grass faced bunkers compared to the "hairy" more "natural" looking bunkers that were being built on classic parkland courses 10 years ago. In fact, a nearby classic club just sodded over their "hairy" bunkers as the membership didn't like them (even though personally I thought they looked great). Plus I think the grass faced bunkers are a little easier and less expensive to maintain, making it a better option in these economic times.

Cross bunkers - turning fairway bunkers "90*" into the line of play and forcing better players to carry off the tee for the best line toward the pin. All while higher handicappers golfers can play around them.

Square tees - I'm not sure these define "classic" courses, but I think it makes the course look older or more classic).

Native yellow-ish "fescue" areas in between holes where there were probably trees before.

Greenside rough pushed back and mowed to fairway cut to better incorporate surrounding slopes and features. Maybe a few run-off areas?

New back tees? Not always needed but could add another dimension for some holes?
H.P.S.

Patrick_Mucci

Jeff,

Proximity of the bunkers to the green would be one feature.

Bunkers behind the green might be another.

Tree removal around the green might be another

Open fronts might be another

Robert Emmons

  • Karma: +0/-0
1910 Dev Emmet,

Flat bottom bunkers with grass faces, cross bunkers, mounds in the middle of bunkers, odd and swirly shapes. open front greens, bunkers on all sides and behind greens, push up greens, one rectangal tee, forward tees added later on if at all, mounds all over the place...RHE

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Too many courses look 'clean', an old look needs some scruff, and a sharp edge now and again wouldn't hurt.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Greens with significant tilt, as opposed to significant internal contours.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
One need only go to Nova scotia and see most of the greens at Highlands Links to answer the questions.

To simplify, I would characterize the greens as having bold, easily observable slopes. Be they tied into the existing terrain, or internal.

Too many modern efforts try to trick the golfer, by having greens that slope away from the natural grade. IMO, these types of tricks are non-sensical, unless they are bold. And even then, they can be done poorly with the use of uniform mounding.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 01:27:39 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Gosselin

  • Karma: +0/-0
If you were going to restore a golden age course without a design pedigree, but wanted it to look the part of a good Golden Age course, what features would you put in the bunkers, greens, maybe even tees to convince people that it might actually have been untouched since originally built in the 1920's?

I know its a broad question, but hopefully, worth a shot from at least a few.

What features would you leave out might be interesting as well?
Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
I thought David Harshbarger's first answer was an excellent one.  Rumply fairways that haven't been smoothed for cart traffic.  We did this at High Pointe so everyone immediately thought I was nuts.  Also:

Having a few hazards from 150 to 200 yards from the tee is a mark of an older course.

Two tees per hole.

Trees growing into the line of play on a couple of holes.

Greens where being above the hole is a bad thing.

No target bunkers through the landing area on tee shots.  I went to an older course once that I'd never seen before, and asked my host on the first tee who had renovated it -- because there was a target bunker at the first hole that was obviously not old-school.

A variety of different grasses in the roughs.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0

More surface drainage and less sub-surface drainage.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Its difficult to pin point characteristics of the Golden Age because all styles of design were spawned then.

GREENS: back to front; sloping rather than contoured, in general, a good mix of green sites including punchbowls; odd shape greens which accentuate well placed bunkers

BUNKERS: the main thing I would say quantity; secondly I would say a willingness to be more creative in placement; maybe more focus on bunkering greens rather than fairways

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
A mix of grasses on the greens so you don't have that uniform look.

Old unrenovated bunkers have years of sand build up on the top

Even if you don't want bunkers 150 yards from the tee make it look like they were there and semi filled in.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
I thought David Harshbarger's first answer was an excellent one.  Rumply fairways that haven't been smoothed for cart traffic.  We did this at High Pointe so everyone immediately thought I was nuts.  Also:

Tom, you have described our modest, golden era, pedigree-less course to a T.  

There are sections of fairway that will pitch you out of the cart if taken at full speed.


Having a few hazards from 150 to 200 yards from the tee is a mark of an older course.

Our only fairway bunker is at 200 yards.

Two tees per hole.

Our pro shop is now festooned with Play It Forward placards.  quixotic as we have only the men's tees (front and back 9), the ladies tees (front and back 9), and the forlorn senior tee.  Adding the extra tees for the back 9 (and seniors) was recent and greatly reduced the ill effects of too much wear.

Trees growing into the line of play on a couple of holes.

Only on a few holes.

Greens where being above the hole is a bad thing.

This would be our course's principal defense.

No target bunkers through the landing area on tee shots.  I went to an older course once that I'd never seen before, and asked my host on the first tee who had renovated it -- because there was a target bunker at the first hole that was obviously not old-school.

Not a single one

A variety of different grasses in the roughs.

Make that through the greens.  Some of the nicer private clubs in the area maintain a consistent culture in the fairways.  Our more modest club gets along fine with the flora that takes the blade.  It may be that there has never been a concerted fairway seeding and weed eradication  program, and certainly not one for the rough.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 09:12:31 AM by David Harshbarger »
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back