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Jeff_McDowell

Re: What is Challenge
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2002, 04:36:15 PM »
Since this has turned into a discussion about par, I would like to pose a question that has been nagging me for awhile - What is par?

From my point of view it is purely a way to categorize holes by length. It makes no statement to the quality of the hole. What do you guys think?

Par is also used by many people (who don't understand golf course architecture) to label a hole good or bad simply by its length. How many times have you heard someone say they don't like a hole because it is too long for a par-3 or too short for a par-5, when we all know that holes on the edge of par can be the most interesting, challenging, and fun.

The concept of par has got to go!!!

Wow, I just whipped myself up in a frenzy. I better get a mountain dew to settle down.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Challenge
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2002, 04:37:16 PM »
Jeremy -

I understand what you're trying to say, but I think all you're really doing is highlighting the shortcomings of the spoken word. I think when virtually everyone describes a hole as "difficult" or "hard," they are speaking of how that hole plays relative to par. After all, except for a hole with a long carry, any hole could be reduced to "simple" by playing only with a pitching wedge & putter.

When I first started playing golf, the only thing I could do was hit a punch 6 iron about 130-150 yards dead straight. When one of my more accomplished friends questioned me about my game, he pointed out that I would score much better if I simply hit this shot repeatedly until I got on or around the green. Maybe true, but therein lies the challenge of golf - trying to play the course the right way for you.

I guess I'm the only golfer on this site that doesn't even look at the par on a hole. For the most part it's obvious, but even in cases where it's not, I just look for the shot I want to hit & then try to hit it. If I drive off line(which I do with alarming frequency), I try to hit the shot I'm generally capable of.

The irony of all this is that I'm probably the worst golfer on the site - so much for your theory, Tom Paul. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Challenge
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2002, 06:47:12 PM »
I joked earlier to Tom Paul about not putting in holes, maybe that's not such a bad idea after all.  I mean do we really care if there is a hole somewhere on the green?  Few people seem to care about keeping score.  Few care about what "par" is on each hole.  So why bother with the frustration of getting that tiny little ball in such a small cup?  Once you're somewhere on the green, just putt around awhile until you get a feel for all the contours and then move on to the next tee.  And forget having a few wagers going on number of birdies, pars, bogies,.., who needs it.  :)

I think it's great to love golf architecture (I know I do) but I also love the game of golf.  When studying golf courses, I think we have to make sure we remember why most people "play the game"!  I recall some famous architect once said something along the lines of, "we have to remember that the golfer is out there playing each round trying to better is career best round by five shots,...".  I think that guy loved golf architecture, but he also knew he was designing golf courses so golfers could play "the game of golf".  He may not have liked the concept of par but he accepted it and understood the impact on the game and on his designs.  

Par may mean different things to different people but most golfers know what it is.  Trying to get cute (a marketing gimmick I'd bet) like they did at The Warren Course doesn't serve much purpose as far as I'm concerned.  What do they think golfers are going to think when they get to a hole that's say 140 yards long, "ok guys, what should we play this one as, a par five?"  

Just my opinion!
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: What is Challenge
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2002, 02:01:18 AM »
Mark:

For someone to say, as I did, that removing the flags from greens is an interesting thing to do I think you have to try to take it for what it means--and not assume it means I'm suggesting the game of golf should be revolutionized in some way!

These few threads recently, like this one, and the others that discuss things like length vs accuracy, the factors of the risks and rewards involved with both, how that relates to strategy and design balance, and even the thread on par are showing me a lot actually. But primarily they're showing me how differently golfers look at these various facets of the game.

Have you ever noticed that even a Tour pro if asked what his strategy might be that day may say; "hit fairways and greens"? What do you suppose he means by that?

While I think it's very interesting how different golfers look at these things you must understand I don't necessarily believe  that some of what they think is the best way or the most advantageous way to look at golf, not if they're interested in good ways to keep their scores down-- and certainly not the best way to play unless those golfers are truly only interested in just batting a ball around on some piece of property with not much thought to doing anything other than that.

When I said how interesting it is to remove flags from greens all I meant is that just happens to be a wonderful example of understanding what good risk management is all about and can be for most golfers!

Most golfers who aren't particularly accomplished in scoring well in golf don't have much idea about risk management and might be inclined to aim right at a flag when clearly that might not even be the most sensible thing to do for Tiger Woods!

Golfers like this may have never heard of something like not short-siding themselves and so really don't have much understanding of some of the basic ramifications of strategy in golf. And they don't have much understanding of the ramifications of strategy particularly when they're the ones who need to understand it as much as Tiger does because they're far more likely to make mistakes than he is!

For the basic strategies of golf I tend to look at the essence of it which I believe is temptation as much for what the risks are as for what the rewards are.

But anyway, I do think removing flags can be an interesting practice in the strategic understanding of hitting greens, for instance, and the risk managment of it.

But seeing as how cups have been part of the game since the beginning and definitely before the onset of golf architecture I wouldn't recommend removing them, as you did. Certainly not a good recommendation for any reason whatsoever unless you're inclined to gut the very essence of the game--which is to score, I think, and mostly in as few shots as possible--and always weighing the risks of what might prevent scoring well is not such a bad idea!

And also I don't think any of us on this site have said or implied that just because we like to talk about some of the finer points of architecture that we don't like to play the game.

Would you agree with that?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Challenge
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2002, 02:51:17 AM »
I'd venture to say that without scoring, golf becomes boring, in a strategic sense.  Surely when an architect is designing a course, the idea in his mind is to insert hazards, sloping greens etc. in order to affect the score of the player.  

Without scoring, the strategic merit of a course is lost.  The aim of golf is to put the ball in the hole in the least number of strokes.  A great course will make you think about what is the best method for doing so.

I'd second what Tom Paul said: what many people love about golf architecture is taking it on themselves.  Unless there are some architects who take delight in subjecting others to torture while avoiding it themselves.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_McDowell

Re: What is Challenge
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2002, 05:32:16 AM »
Mark, you said:
What do they think golfers are going to think when they get to a hole that's say 140 yards long, "ok guys, what should we play this one as, a par five?"

Obviously, that hole will be a par-3, but what about a course that has a 250 and a 265 yard hole? Both holes may be fun, challenging, difficult, and strategic, but I know golfers will complain about a 250 yard, par-3 being too long and a 265 yard, par-4 being too short.

Labeling a hole with a par only shackles the mind of golfers. Rich said it himself when he described how his thought process differed when faced with a 220-yard shot on a par 4 and par 5.

I think golfers should be less concerned with matching par, and much more concerned with negotiating hazards with the strengths of their game. I believe getting rid of par would help golfers achieve this ideal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: What is Challenge
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2002, 07:56:17 AM »
Jeff:

I second that and third it and fourth it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Challenge
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2002, 08:40:08 AM »
I fifth it, Jeff...well said!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Jeff_McDowell

Re: What is Challenge
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2002, 11:39:11 AM »
Tom and Evan,

Thanks for your support. The two holes I used as examples are not hypotheticals. They are on the drawing board right now, and should be built this summer.

I am strongly urging the owner to not label any holes with par, but we'll see. In fact, I just emailed the owner this exchange and asked for their opinion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is Challenge
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2002, 12:18:23 PM »
Putting something as "artificial" as a designation of par on a hole completely changes it's character...but only if you allow it to!

I agree (based on comments made above) that simply stating a 450-yard hole be considered a par-4 makes it a more difficult/challenging hole than labeling it as a par-5...but why should it?  Are we so ingrained as a golfing public that by the simple act of assigning a number to a hole we have fundamentally changed it's character, and how we should strategically attack it?

My skills as a golfer do not change so drastically and dramatically that this type of hole would be played in any other means than what my shot selections/abailites will allow.  For me, there is no question that I'm playing two shots (to layup), and then take my chances with wedge in hand...no matter what par you assign it.  Now, of course there are other factors that would/could sway my decision, like the elevation we are playing at, downwind, downhill, landing area hazards that might allow me the risk/reward option of trying to poke one out there and go for it...but under "normal" playing conditions this hole is out of reach for me, and I'm playing the "smart" shot for MY style of play.

Every course offers it's own set of challenges to golfers of different skill levels and abilities, and unfortunately too many of us (myself included) have come to rely so heavily on that all important number they've placed on the scorecard as to influence how we play the game.  I think we would all do better as a golfing public if we were to just abandon the notion of a "set" score for a hole, and just allow our games to dictate the play and the desired "par" we wish to achieve.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

TEPaul

Re: What is Challenge
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2002, 02:35:57 PM »
The probable reality of this odd pyschology of par on a particular hole at 475yd hole (I won't go into any other ramifications) is if you called it a par 4 the players I know, including myself would likely go at the hole more aggressively than if it was simply called a par 5. Holes that fit into this general descriptions would be holes like #15 & #16 Maidstone--both par 5s incidentally! If they were relabeled as par 4s I'm certain I would go at them more aggressively than I do as they are (par 5s). It really doesn't make much sense I realize but nevertheless it's true!

If you asked me what would happen if I went at both aggressively instead of relatively conservatively as I do I would say I would probably make a few more 4s but a few more 6s (or worse) too. As a par 5 I make a few 4s and hardly ever make a 6!!

It is odd but true--and while I'm interested in how I would react to holes like this if they had no par at all, I really can't imagine at the moment exactly what I would do!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »