[Patrick_Mucci]

they sure succeeded at Pine Valley.

I've been playing Pine Valley for 47 years, so it's not new to me.

Yet, I found myself playing defensively at times

The fear factor is pervasive on every hole to differing degrees.

While the fairways are generous, those features that cause fear and doubt are always in your vision.

You can drive it thru certain fairways, hole locations can really intimidate you.
Fear of failure to execute can frighten you.
Yet, the holes can yield birdies.  Even # 5 yielded a number of birdies and # 5 has to be one of the most intimidating shots in golf.
The first time I walked onto that tee, 47 years ago, I thought it was a short narrow par 4.
When the caddy told me it was a par 3 I thought he was joking.

Part of the fear factor is created by elevation changes and the consequence of failure to negotiate a chasm, by choice or by mandate.
# 5 is a mandate, # 6 is your choice.
The temptation to cut off as much as you can on the deep diagonal hazard is very high on # 6.
But, if you try it, and pull the shot, you'll go through the fairway leaving yourself no shot.
Mishit your drive and you're down, way down in a sandy wasteland filled with shrubs, cactus and sand..
It's NO place for a golfer to be.
And, you can see it all from the tee.
I chose the gamble three times, cleared twice leaving me a sand wedge, pulled one leaving me a duck hook seven iron to the green.

I'll go through a hole by hole exercise shortly.

Every hole has signficant or multilple features which translate to fear factors.

[Jim Franklin]

Fear starts on the first hole. Don't miss long, left or right!

[Carl Nichols]

Pat-
Did you play Pine Valley recently?

[Sean Leary]

I like it when Pat comes back from PV, NGLA and Seminole. Lots of green type for days .

[Carr Harris]

Patrick,

What about the 7th hole?

It's the flattest piece of land on the course.

Hells Half Acre isn't really in play on your layup unless you are an extremely short hitter or you duff it.

The landing zone for your 2nd shot is monstrously large (For PV)

The green is a very inviting target for a wedge.




I guess that the green can be somewhat troublesome but compared to the rest of the course the hole is a veritable breather.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Fear starts on the first hole. Don't miss long, left or right!

As wide as the 1st fairway is, the golfer clearly sees the trouble on the right and left.

The trouble long usually comes into play with a strong pull or just a poorly conceived tee shot that's hit solid.

One of the most frightening shots is golf is when the hole is cut all the way in the back of # 1 green.
The margins of error are minute.
If the hole is cut all the way back, I might take a club or two more, but, not enough club to get pin high should i miss.
Better short with a 20-30 footer than trying to recover from 20 feet below the green to a narrow hole location.

I hit a 5-iron to 3 feet after pulling my drive.  But, if the hole was back another 10 or 20 yards, I would have hit the same shot and just settled for a longer putt.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

What about the 7th hole?

It's the flattest piece of land on the course.

Hells Half Acre isn't really in play on your layup unless you are an extremely short hitter or you duff it.

Cliff, that's a big "unless"
Yesterday, I was the only one with a shot to clear HHA.
The day before, only two of us cleared HHA and the day before, I had to chip out and then fly HHA.
Get a little wind in your face, or slightly mishit your drive and clearing HHA is in doubt.

As to the third shot,  your normal approach, it's an aerial shot and the location of the hole can create a difficult approach.
At 573 and 636, if you mishit any of your shots you won't get home in regulation.
And, with the hole cut near the perimeter, playing safe can leave you a putt of almost 100 feet.

While it's fairly flat, it's a challenging hole.

The landing zone for your 2nd shot is monstrously large (For PV)

The DZ's at PV are fairly generous.

The green is a very inviting target for a wedge.

At 573 and 636 I don't know of many guys that are hitting wedges.




I guess that the green can be somewhat troublesome but compared to the rest of the course the hole is a veritable breather.

[Carr Harris]

Pat,


First let me offer the caveat that I played the 573 yd tees on the hole, so tipped out it may be a different story. Although as fast as PV plays, yardages don't carry that much weight

As you've said before, PV is a championship course for the accomplished golfer. So through that prism, I don't think it's a big "Unless" at all to think a quality player will have much trouble negotiating the driver- 7 iron or so it takes to negotiate HHA.

I agree that the green is heavily contoured but how much "fear" does that really instill in a golfer? If having tricky 100 ft. putts was the main criteria then TOC would be considered the worlds scariest course.



I actually agree with your sentiments here about the course in general. I'm just nit picking a little bit for the sake of arguement. I think that compared to the rest of the course that #7 had by far the least psychological effect on my game. In the give and take of PV, it's definately a "Give" hole to me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

First let me offer the caveat that I played the 573 yd tees on the hole, so tipped out it may be a different story. Although as fast as PV plays, yardages don't carry that much weight

Carl,

It poured Friday afternoon and evening.
Hours of heavy rain.
While the course drains well, it was far from fast and firm with that steady downpour just a few hours before the first tee time.
I must say that the green's crew did a marvelous job preparing the course.

As you've said before, PV is a championship course for the accomplished golfer. So through that prism, I don't think it's a big "Unless" at all to think a quality player will have much trouble negotiating the driver- 7 iron or so it takes to negotiate HHA.

Cliff, you've fallen victim to that which many sucumb to in that you only view play of the course by the superior player rather than the vast majority of golfers who carry, low, medium and high handicaps.

How do you think a 6, 8, 10, 12 and 14 handicap golfer plays # 7 ?
Do you think they view it as a driver 7-iron ?

I drove it to within 10 yards of HHA and hit a 3-wood second.
Someone told me that HHA was about 180-200 yards to carry from the DZ fairway.
That's a heck of a 7-iron.

I agree that the green is heavily contoured but how much "fear" does that really instill in a golfer?

The fact that it's an island green instills plenty of fear.
And, the back bunker is one of those narrow trench bunkers with concrete hard sand, so it's to be avoided at all costs.
Over three days I saw plenty of guys hitting woods, long irons and mid irons into that green.
You have to view golf from the perspective of the broad spectrum of golfers, and not just a few superior players.

Have you ever played in a medal play competition at Pine Valley ?

That may alter your perspective.

If having tricky 100 ft. putts was the main criteria then TOC would be considered the worlds scariest course.


I never said it was the "main" criteria, just another problem created when holes are cut to the perimeter of almost any of those greens except # 8.

I actually agree with your sentiments here about the course in general. I'm just nit picking a little bit for the sake of arguement.
I think that compared to the rest of the course that #7 had by far the least psychological effect on my game.
In the give and take of PV, it's definately a "Give" hole to me.

For the superior player, there are probably a few "give" holes.
I'd add # 6, # 12 and # 17 to that mix.
But, for the less than superior golfer, those holes are anything but "give" holes, with # 6 a frightening hole off the tee, # 7 a frightening hole for the second shot and # 17 a frightening hole on the approach shot.

Don't examine the course solely in the context of the superior golfer, but, through the perspective of all golfers, be they 6, 8, 10, 12, 14 or higher handicaps.

[Carr Harris]

I think it's all about perpective. The golfer who has just played holes 1-6 on that course is going to get to #7 tee and relax a bit. a less visually intimidating hole than any other on that side.

Your point that high handicappers may struggle and let their fears get the better of them is an obvious one, but certainly doesnt seperate PV from the masses. Any forced carry anywhere will pysch a bad player out.

[David_Tepper]

Where is it written the architect's job is to instill fear?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Carr,

Fear at PV comes in many forms.

To state that the first time player breathes a sigh of relief on the 7th tee is absurd.

They know that the 7th and all future holes have devilish features/hazards that lie in wait for them.

The hole appears narrow from the tee.  That instills fear.   If they've read anything, they probably know about HHA and that instills fear.

If they've encountered any of the trench or pot bunkers in the playing corridors or in the woods, that instills fear.

It's not a course where you can relax until after the round is over.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Where is it written the architect's job is to instill fear?

David, perhaps a quote from "A Few Good Men" will help you with your "where is it written" question.

Capt. Ross: Corporal Barnes, I hold here the Marine Corps Outline for Recruit Training. You're familiar with this book?
Cpl. Barnes: Yes, sir.
Capt. Ross: You've read it?
Cpl. Barnes: Yes, sir.
Capt. Ross: Good. Would you open it up to the chapter that deals with code reds, please?
Cpl. Barnes: Sir?
Capt. Ross: Just flip open to the page of the book that talks about code reds.
Cpl. Barnes: Well, sir code red is a term that we use, I mean, just down at Gitmo, I really don't think that...
Capt. Ross: Ah, we're in luck then. Standard Operating Procedures, Rifle Security Company, Guantanamo Bay Cuba. Now I assume we'll find the term code red and its definition in that book. Am I right?
Cpl. Barnes: No sir.
Capt. Ross: Coporal Barnes, I'm a Marine. Is there no book. No pamphlet or manual, no regulation or set of written orders or instructions that lets me know that, as a Marine, one of my duties is to perform code reds?
Cpl. Barnes: No sir. No book, sir.
Capt. Ross: No further questions.

[as Ross walks back to his table Kaffee takes the book out of his hand]

Kaffee: Corporal would you open this book up to the part that says that where the mess hall is.
Cpl. Barnes: Well, Lt Kaffee, that's not in the book either, sir.
Kaffee: You mean to say the entire time you've been at Gitmo you've never had a meal?
Cpl. Barnes: No, sir. Three squares a day, sir.
Kaffee: Well, I don't understand. How did you know where the mess hall was if it wasn't in this book?
Cpl. Barnes: I guess I just followed the crowd at chow time, sir.
Kaffee: Thanks. No more questions.

Hope that helps.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat,

For me the tee shot on #5 is the most terrifying in golf.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

For me the tee shot on #5 is the most terrifying in golf.

Tim,

The first time I walked from # 4 green unto the back of # 5 tee, and looked at the hole, I thought it was a par 4.
It was a very intimidating look.
When the caddy told me it was a par 3, I almost didn't believe him.

You stand there looking at the distant green, the chasm below you, the drop off to the right of the green and the bunkers and trees left of the green and you immediately think about the consequences of a poorly hit shot.

It is a terrifying shot.

I've learned from experience and caddy consent, to lay up short of the green and take my chances, knowing that par or bogey is my likely score.  If an opponent has hit the green, below the hole, then I would consider hitting to the flag with a longer club.

If the opponent has hit the green above the hole, or parallel with the hole but far away, I go with my "short" strategy.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat,

Laying up short is the only way I have played the hole. I am smarter than I am a good golfer!

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