[Steve_ Shaffer]

A nice escape for Rory and a learning experience for his caddie, the son of PV's pro:

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/125397043.html

[Joe Bausch]

I've always liked Mike Kern's friendly writing style.  Of course, as a Philly Daily News fan I would love to think about Conlin writing the same article!

Thanks for posting Steve-o!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve & Joe,

The caddies were talking about his rounds and what clubs he hit.

I wish I could remember their conversations.

But, if Rory shot even par for 36 from the back tees on two normal days at PV, you can imagine that the course can be a challenge.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Anyone playing PVGC in the past 15-20 years has had is easy!!  I've played there on a regular basis many many times over the past 30+ years and it's a "shell" of what it once was!  The course is more open and frankly easier than when we slogged around it in the 70s, and 80s.  Ransome and clan's effort to speed up slow play at PVGC resulted in them clearing most of the debris out of the forced-carry areas making the course play substantially easier.  Moreover, terrifying slopes once in the green has been reduced making putting more of a yawner than a nail biter.

The practice area is an embarrassment - looks more like something out of a factory golf resort.  Bring back the time when we threw balls down at the weed-infested helicopter landing area and shagged our shots.... with 5 minutes before we had to drive our cars back to the parking lot to make out tee times.  Bring back singing in the bar area.  Bring back cigars and cognac by a roaring fall fireplace snackin on Ritz and cheddar.  Bring back tipping to the staff.  Give me dormitories in the annex instead of a something akin to a Day's Inn suite - geez, do I get frequent flyer miles?? 

McIlroy recently played from the new back tees which taxed him (just a little) on holes like 4, 7 and 18 - but for the pros, PVGC, once harder than diamonds, is now soft around the middle, looking more like a mainstream course than one of the great exceptions in the golfing world. 

JC

[Joe Bausch]

Moreover, terrifying slopes once in the green has been reduced making putting more of a yawner than a nail biter.

How was this accomplished?

[Kyle Harris]

JC:

Clearing of the waste areas did not make the golf course easier, however, it did make the penalty for missing less punitive.

I make a very big distinction between these two points. When playing very well, Pine Valley still requires exemplary skill to score well.

[David Mulle]

JC:

Clearing of the waste areas did not make the golf course easier, however, it did make the penalty for missing less punitive.

I make a very big distinction between these two points. When playing very well, Pine Valley still requires exemplary skill to score well.

I think this is an extremely important point Kyle is making and it is too often overlooked.

[Jim_Coleman]

    With all due respect, if the penalty for missing a shot is ade less punitive, the course becomes easier  -  by definition.  Of course, if one is "playing very well" (hitting fairways and greens), one isn't missing shots, and so the course gets no easier.  I don't know about you guys, but I've never played a round without missing a shot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anyone playing PVGC in the past 15-20 years has had is easy!!  I've played there on a regular basis many many times over the past 30+ years and it's a "shell" of what it once was!  The course is more open and frankly easier than when we slogged around it in the 70s, and 80s. 
JC,

In the early 60's the course was far more wide open.
The trees and shrubs didn't intrude as much into the bunkers and playing corridors.

Benign neglect may have led to the condiditions you allude to.


Ransome and clan's effort to speed up slow play at PVGC resulted in them clearing most of the debris out of the forced-carry areas making the course play substantially easier. 

When you clear the forced carry areas with your drive, not a difficult task, it really doesn't matter what was in them or how they were maitained.
Most of those areas are equivalent to top shot bunkers in terms of their impact on play.

Moreover, terrifying slopes once in the green has been reduced making putting more of a yawner than a nail biter.

Would you cite which slopes were reduced

The practice area is an embarrassment - looks more like something out of a factory golf resort.  Bring back the time when we threw balls down at the weed-infested helicopter landing area and shagged our shots.... with 5 minutes before we had to drive our cars back to the parking lot to make out tee times. 

Not for me.
I love to practice and I love that practice range.
You can work on every aspect of your game and you can work on the shots you'll face on the golf course.

Bring back singing in the bar area.

I prefer not listening to drunken alley cats who think they can sing well.
Tin ears abounded.

Bring back cigars and cognac by a roaring fall fireplace snackin on Ritz and cheddar. 

The Ritz and Cheddar never left.
As to Cigars, you'll have to appeal to the legislature on that one.

Bring back tipping to the staff. 

Clubs avoid this to make sure that all members receive equal service.

Give me dormitories in the annex instead of a something akin to a Day's Inn suite - geez, do I get frequent flyer miles?? 

Again, I'd prefer not listening to drunken alley cats at midnight or tin ear shower performers at 5:30 am.

PV gets it right, based on experience and human nature.

McIlroy recently played from the new back tees which taxed him (just a little) on holes like 4, 7 and 18 - but for the pros, PVGC, once harder than diamonds, is now soft around the middle, looking more like a mainstream course than one of the great exceptions in the golfing world. 
Let me create additional length, prep the course and set the pins and I'd like to wager on that.

Played nine holes with my nephew and son tonight.
I hit some great drives.
My nephew was only 50 yards by me on some tee shots.
460 into the wind, driver, 8-iron.
480 into the wind, driver 7-iron.
Distance is destroying great courses.

Once, 6,800 was a challenge for the pros, today, even 7,800 isn't a challenge.

Where's "The Masters" tournament ball when you need it ?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Pat - your experience pre-dates mine at PVGC.  The green slopes, to cite just two, at 5 and 10 were much more severe 25 years ago. 

Only a minority of players get around PVGC without visiting a waste area or two.  It once took more time to find balls and get out of those areas which was the impetus for the clear cutting.  The course now plays easier because of the clearing.  You could set the course up and easily put it beyond my ability but I doubt you could do that for a pro.   As you point out length is a big factor but I don’t believe it was anywhere near as easy for the pro of 25 years ago.  The 153 slope from 6500 yards is now ridiculously high – I have no data to support this but do some experience(sense) in this as I was a USGA rating/slope volunteer in the Mid-Atlantic for 19 years.  There are now much harder courses with lower slopes.  The bogey golfing member at PVGC has one of the world’s best traveling handicaps. 

I love drunken alley cats :-) 

I love to practice too and the new PVGC practice area is off the map good - I'm just reminiscing of bygone years.  Johnny Ott use to hit a few balls in the evening and run his dogs in that area – probably not something he could do today….

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Poor practice facilities.......

wow...I cant think of many who will go along with that one..
Between the par three course, the short game area, and the "hitting" faclilty....it is superb.
I understand the "very old" throw some balls down comment....but come on, we have moved on the game has progressed.
People like to practice now and the facility at PV is as good as anywhere.....I simply love it.

I was not aware any work had been done to change the greens on numbers 5 and 15...the slope there now is rather severe, hard to imagine anymore actually.
I would be very interseted to see any photographs of the old grrens on thsoe two holes.

[archie_struthers]

 

Lots of good on the pro and con relative to PVGC on this one.  Having seen it since the mid 70's to today and watched it's evolution I can safely say the more it changes the more it stays the same.  Sure some of the modern accoutrements for the overnight guest might make it less Spartan, but the emphasis on golf and tradition still remain.  But to each his own on accomodations and whiskey lol

As to difficulty, the offset for the lack of GUNK , GRONKEL and junk in the waste areas

is the green speed increases  , as the ey manage the speed for tournament play the golf course becomes so much more difficult . If you haven't experienced this you just can't believe the difference . All the loose iiron shots into a green that you get away with in May , June are much more nerve wracking when the stimps go up .  Remember the greens can't be at the speed of Oakmont or they would never get around the place at any reasonable pace ...  and those new tees are really really hard , magnifying all of the above.

just so you know that I'm not totallyan apologist or in the tank for PV  , I really don't like the new bunkers on the top of the 4th landing area, it took away from the charm and iintrigue of that tee shot ...

[Dan Herrmann]

Aah - to have those type of problems

[Matthew Petersen]

Only a minority of players get around PVGC without visiting a waste area or two.  It once took more time to find balls and get out of those areas which was the impetus for the clear cutting.  The course now plays easier because of the clearing.  You could set the course up and easily put it beyond my ability but I doubt you could do that for a pro.   As you point out length is a big factor but I don’t believe it was anywhere near as easy for the pro of 25 years ago.  The 153 slope from 6500 yards is now ridiculously high – I have no data to support this but do some experience(sense) in this as I was a USGA rating/slope volunteer in the Mid-Atlantic for 19 years.  There are now much harder courses with lower slopes.  The bogey golfing member at PVGC has one of the world’s best traveling handicaps. 

All of this is true, but you're saying it in response to a thread about how Rory McIlroy played the course the weekend before he went out and decimated the US Open field. Clearly he wasn't missing shots and even most of his misses are much less likely to be in the junk as opposed to just a less desirable part of the fairway. Your original complaint made it seem like Rory's scores were the result of this clearing of the hazard areas, but that's pretty obviously not an issue for him.

[Tim Martin]

Rory doesn`t grease the kid an extra $100? Standard rate-hmm........

[Michael Whitaker]

Is it true Rory was upset about all the fans on the course and threatened to never play there again... or was that JakaB? I get the two confused. 

[Sean Leary]

Tim,

A lot of places don't want you to over tip, so to speak. I would not be surprised if that is the case at PV.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - your experience pre-dates mine at PVGC.  The green slopes, to cite just two, at 5 and 10 were much more severe 25 years ago.
25 years ago the greens were much slower.

On # 5 they raised the left front corner, I'm not sure what they did to # 10, although, short of the green, they put a mini-berm between the DA and the green to divert surface water flow away from the DA.  That was done right before the Walker Cup.  Previously, balls hit out of the DA, but on the front of the green, would roll back into the DA. 

Only a minority of players get around PVGC without visiting a waste area or two.  It once took more time to find balls and get out of those areas which was the impetus for the clear cutting.  The course now plays easier because of the clearing. 


In 1964 most of those waste areas were pretty near pristine, void of any vegetation, save for HHA.
I suspect that benign neglect resulted in the grunge over the years.

You could set the course up and easily put it beyond my ability but I doubt you could do that for a pro. 

I think you have to remember that courses like ANGC, WFW and Oakmont all added significant length over the years to offset hi-tech and challenge the best players in the world.  I could do the same at PV.  There's plenty of room on more than a few holes.  Others are land locked.
Added length, high green speeds and firm conditions would test the best. 

As you point out length is a big factor but I don’t believe it was anywhere near as easy for the pro of 25 years ago.  The 153 slope from 6500 yards is now ridiculously high – I have no data to support this but do some experience(sense) in this as I was a USGA rating/slope volunteer in the Mid-Atlantic for 19 years. 

I wonder how much of a factor, stroke control is ?

It would seem that PV can produce an X on one's scorecard if the golfer is careless, wild or unthinking.
It's so easy to take a big number on any hole, and that has to be a factor.

There are now much harder courses with lower slopes. 
The bogey golfing member at PVGC has one of the world’s best traveling handicaps.

I also think the bogey golfing member at PVGC has a huge advantage when playing against a non-member as I think PV is one of those courses where local knowledge is a huge advantage. 

I love drunken alley cats :-) 
Me too, but, only if they're female.

I love to practice too and the new PVGC practice area is off the map good - I'm just reminiscing of bygone years.  Johnny Ott use to hit a few balls in the evening and run his dogs in that area – probably not something he could do today….

Things certainly seem more formal.
I recall, dating back to 1964, when it bordered on a casual environment.
Now, it seems so popular that it's so busy and more structured.

One thing I don't miss is the old beds in Dormie House.
Who could sleep in them ?  Crump must have bought those beds in 1917.

It's really a great place, a Mecca for golf.
You're there for one purpose and one purpose only, great golf.
And, you meet alot of really great guys as well.

It's very special and I would advise anyone and everyone who hasn't seen PV to attend the Crump Cup, when spectators are allowed.

[JESII]

Pat,

When did you first play there?

[Joe Bausch]

Pat,

When did you first play there?

Well, he does have Colt's autograph. 

Anything else you need to know Jim?

 

[JESII]

I wouldn't be surprised if he gave Colt his first golf lesson...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

When did you first play there?

1964

[Jonathan Cummings]

Pat - did you and/or your dad know George Poole at PVGC?

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