Grantland Rice on Pine Valley in 1916

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike the "routing wasn't completed until 1918 and beyond so how can you maintain that a "general" routing existed in or around 1913 ?

As to AWT's account, what you posted isn't his direct account, but a newspaper account, and you've even indicated that newspaper accounts are often wrong.

Patrick,

If you truly have an interest in these historical discussions other than attempting to bait TePaul back to GCA, you really should have to do a modicum of research or even basic reading yourself. 

Mike,

I"ve done as much, if not more, reading about Pine Valley as you.

As to TEPaul, he and I spent over two hours on the phone the other night discussing Pine Valley and other topics.
This call followed a conversation two days previous.  So, you're wrong on that account.
 
If you did, you wouldn't ask such questions.

My questions aren't about Pine Valley.
My questions are about your statements about Pine Valley, and there's a huge distinction.

Would you please answer, rather than avoid them.

There were multiple early routings, including the one suggested by Colt. 

That's not what you stated.
You stated that there was "A" general routing in place pre-Colt, a routing that was completed by Crump and his committee.
Can you or anyone produce that "general" routing ?

I asked, how could a general routing be in place when there wasn't a completed routing in place on the day that Crump died in 1918. 

Yes, they all changed between 1913 and 1918, including Colt's and in some very significant ways.   
If I get the chance, I may post one or two tonight for reference.

But, you stated that there was a "general" routing in place pre-Colt.
Does anyone have a copy of that routing, or is it another myth ?

Also, the articles I posted were written directly by AW Tillinghast.   
He is not being quoted, but instead writing the articles himself.

The problem with your "AWT" presentation is that you posted it in reverse order, which gives the reader a totally different perspective, versus posting the articles in chronological order.

If one reads the articles chronologically, one's context and perceptions are changed.

Ryan,

Good one.   Rest assured I have no intention to continue beyond merely providing the historical artifacts here for others so they can make their own determinations.   I've wasted enough of my time with these guys.

Mike, there are things that are occuring, as we type, that should prove that the thread YOU started, was not a waste of time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Can you post the Blue and Red pencil topos.

I think you posted them years ago and would appreciate your posting them again.

Thanks

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

The Tillinghast articles are in chronological order.   Tillinghast tells us on March 23, 1913 that a general plan of the course has been made and then goes on to describe a number of the holes.   This was months before Colt's arrival.

I believe you are confusing that fact that Joe Bausch's 4 looks like a 7 in the November 8th, 1914 article I posted.

I'll post both Colt's original plan tonight as well as the revised one, as time permits.

[Tom MacWood]

Pat
For some odd reason Mike skips from June 1913 to January 1915 and omits all the articles in between, including this article from May 1914:

"When Sayers arrived at Pine Valley the first hole that he saw was the fifth and immediately exclaimed, 'Its Colt and Sunningdale!', and although he had not been told that Colt was the architect of the course, his keen perception had detected at once the handiwork of the Sunningdale constructor."

And this one from December 1914:

"Much has been written concerning this marvelous course, discovered by Mr. George A. Crump and designed by that celebrated golf architect, Mr. HS Colt, but for the most part...."

Unfortunately since they changed the format of the site I have not been able to post pictures.

[Joe Bausch]

I believe you are confusing that fact that Joe Bausch's 4 looks like a 7 in the November 8th, 1914 article I posted.

Mike is right in that those Tilly articles are in chronological order.  And my written 4's are sloppy at times!

[Paul_Turner]

I'm pretty sure that this was ALL thrashed out between myself and TEP about 7-8 years ago!

I'll be peeved if that blue/red topo photo that I took is posted.  It was never intended for the internet.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

It's common knowledge that the 5th hole was all Colt's idea.    He was also the architect of the course, the only paid one anyway, but the course that was built and evolved between 1913 and 1918 was the work of many architects, including Crump, Tillinghast, and other collaborative forces that Crump brought together.   And, Crump was the one who decided what to use.

Paul,

Good to hear from you, and agreed that this is a dead horse.

I'll also respect your wishes not to repost that blue/red drawing photo.

Hope all is well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Turner,

The reason I wanted to see the RED/BLUE topo was to compare it to a 1910 topo and a current topo.

TEPaul and I discussed this at length the other night.

We wanted to analyze the topos in order to determine how much dirt was moved.

P.S.  Mike would like all investigative threads to go away, even the one's he starts as he prefers to perpetuate the status quo with
       myths 

[Paul_Turner]

Mike, thanks.

Patrick

From memory.  The 1st green is a natural site.

[DMoriarty]

I've never looked into this issue much, but a few things I have always wondered about the timeline.

In short, I have serious issues with this notion that if holes were planned before Colt's 1913 trip, then we must assume that Colt could have had nothing to do with that aspect of the plan.

-  Why is everyone so sure that the 1913 trip was Colt's first to Pine Valley?  Don't Colt's writings indicate that he was at  Pine Valley on his first trip?  This early involvement would make some sense given the timing of Crump's trip abroad and Colt's first trip to the United States.  Also, the January 12, 1913 article indicated that Tillie had known about the project for over a year.  Unless he meant barely over a year, that puts us into 1911, which is when Colt first came over, isn't it?  

- Why is everyone so sure that Colt had not already examined topo maps and discussed the circumstances with Crump, before he came over?  The same article indicated that that Colt had first discovered and had been going over the land for around three years, which puts us back to the end of 1909 or the beginning of 1910, I don't remember the dates of his trip offhand, but wasn't it after this?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

It's common knowledge that the 5th hole was all Colt's idea.    He was also the architect of the course, the only paid one anyway, but the course that was built and evolved between 1913 and 1918 was the work of many architects, including Crump, Tillinghast, and other collaborative forces that Crump brought together.   And, Crump was the one who decided what to use.

Mike
I agree the routing was tweeked after 1913, but as Paul estimated a few years ago 80-90% of the today's routing matches Colt's 1913 routing. That is a significant percentage, which is why most contemporaneous accounts gave him the credit, including Tilly.

[Tom MacWood]

I've never looked into this issue much, but a few things I have always wondered about the timeline.

In short, I have serious issues with this notion that if holes were planned before Colt's 1913 trip, then we must assume that Colt could have had nothing to do with that aspect of the plan.

-  Why is everyone so sure that the 1913 trip was Colt's first to Pine Valley?  Don't Colt's writings indicate that he was at  Pine Valley on his first trip?  This early involvement would make some sense given the timing of Crump's trip abroad and Colt's first trip to the United States.  Also, the January 12, 1913 article indicated that Tillie had known about the project for over a year.  Unless he meant barely over a year, that puts us into 1911, which is when Colt first came over, isn't it?  

- Why is everyone so sure that Colt had not already examined topo maps and discussed the circumstances with Crump, before he came over?  The same article indicated that that Colt had first discovered and had been going over the land for around three years, which puts us back to the end of 1909 or the beginning of 1910, I don't remember the dates of his trip offhand, but wasn't it after this?

David
I think it is very unlikely Colt was involved in 1911. Crump told his collegues he found the perfect site in the fall of 1912, and it was purchased later that year. They began doing some general clearly early in 1913. The topo map was made in March and Colt came to the US that same month. In April a letter was sent to prospective members that said "eighteen men have already been found, each of whom have agreed to plan and build one hole." Obvioulsy coherent plan was not in place in April. Colt visited Pine Valley in May.

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Tom.   

Am I misremembering, or did Colt indicate somewhere that he was involved with PV on his first trip over?

Why do you suppose Tillinghast wrote that he had been aware of the land for over a year?

[Mike Cirba]

David,

It was reported that Colt was coming to see Merion and Seaview.

If Colt was involved earlier at PV than June 1913 there is no record of it.

[Tom MacWood]

Thanks Tom.   

Am I misremembering, or did Colt indicate somewhere that he was involved with PV on his first trip over?

Why do you suppose Tillinghast wrote that he had been aware of the land for over a year?

David
Crump, Tilly and their buddies used to take the train to Atlantic City to play golf in the Fall and Winter, and I get the impression they knew of the land in a general sense (the pine barrens of NJ, which is a fairly big region), and in particular the land around Clementon, on the line.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba.  I wasn't asking you.  Your information is almost always unreliable. 
______________________________________________

Tom MacWood.  I recall a seeing a list of courses from Colt which at least created the impression that he was involved with PV on the first trip.   I'll see if I can remember where I saw this.

[Paul_Turner]

David

I don't have the book in front of me but you may have seen the list in Hawtree's Colt and Co.  He had Colt visiting PV in 1911 but he was wrong.  The book has quite a lot of errors.

[DMoriarty]

David

I don't have the book in front of me but you may have seen the list in Hawtree's Colt and Co.  He had Colt visiting PV in 1911 but he was wrong.  The book has quite a lot of errors.

Paul,  It was definitely a list, so that may be it.  I am not sure.  Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike, thanks.

Patrick

From memory.  The 1st green is a natural site.

Paul,

I don't believe it is.  The falloff is too severe and too symetrical.

David & Tom MacWood,

The railroad tracks run immediately adjacent to Pine Valley, hard against the 17th tee and the 14th green.

Surely, the railroad would have a topo of that area circa 1912 and/or earlier.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

I wasn't telling just you...only correcting your usual wild, baseless speculation for everyone else.

[Mike Cirba]

Some additional info from an article originally unearthed by Joe Bausch.

[Tom MacWood]

"Nature has been centuries in preparing this ideal tract for the hand of man in the ultimate creation of a real golf course, and man, in the person of Mr. George Crump, more particularly, aided by other Philadelphia enthusiasts, has carved out a links which is just as sure as anything to be one of the best—if not the very best—that this country may justly be proud of.

Laid out some two years ago by Mr. H. S. Colt, the eminent British authority on golf course architecture, sufficient progress has been made to justify anticipations of a most brilliant future."

Walter Travis, American Golfer - August 1915

[Tom MacWood]

"During the following winter and early spring, enough of the land was cleared to reveal the main features of the property, and to disclose the contour of the ground.

In order to procure the very best design for the golf course, Mr. Crump secured the services of that brilliant master of golf architecture, Mr. H. S. Colt, of international fame.

Mr. Colt visited Pine Valley in May, 1913. After making a general inspection of the land, he declared his amazement that such a rare opportunity for a genuinely classical course should be found so near to Philadelphia. He spent a full week examining the ground thoroughly, and then submitted plans of an eighteen-hole golf course, which, in his opinion, would be the equal of any inland course in the world..."

"...With the plans in hand, work upon the construction of the course was begun in earnest. Fairways were cleared and ploughed; roads were built; a vast amount of grading done; and many of the large bunkers were cut. A small army of men were set to work digging thousands of tons of humus out of the low places. A compost of this humus with sand and barnyard manure forms an almost ideal mixture for putting greens. All the greens and tees at Pine Valley are built of this mixture, to a depth of twelve inches.

The land on which the Pine Valley golf course is located is a unique formation, confined to the locality. There is nothing like it in South Jersey. It looks to have been some upheaval of the bed of the sea in bygone ages. There are ridges and rolls in every direction; big ones and little ones; long ones and short ones; hills and knolls, with every variety of shape and size. You could not fancy any contour of ground more admirably suited for golf purposes. Mr. Colt was greatly impressed with it, and he has surely made the most of its opportunities in the superb plan which he designed. Nature made the golf holes. Mr. Colt discovered them."

Simon Carr (founding member PV), Golf Illustrated - Janaury 1915

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Thanks for sharing those quotes.   I don't think anyone here is disputing that Colt put together a plan for the course, which was generally followed with a number of holes from Crump's original routing, and then some revision by Crump (and others) over time through the almost 10 years it took to get eighteen holes in play.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Thanks for sharing those quotes.   I don't think anyone here is disputing that Colt put together a plan for the course, which was generally followed with a number of holes from Crump's original routing, and then some revision by Crump (and others) over time through the almost 10 years it took to get eighteen holes in play.

Nice try. I have to give you credit...you have a vivid imagination.