Do 5 and 13 at Pine Valley prove Colt's involvement at The Addington?

[Scott Warren]

I recall some healthy back-and-forth a year or two back on just how involved Harry Colt was in the design of The Addington south of London.

I was re-reading this morning (inspired by all of Pat Mucci's threads) some info on how Pine Valley came to be and came across the passage on Colt being the one who found the 5th hole, connecting the opening four-hole loop with the final three holes of the front nine up on the upper ridge.

I've always thought it remarkable how similar PV #5 and The Addington #13 are and this morning it hit me immediately (somehow it never did the first few dozen times I read it!) upon reading the above passage that the common link between those two holes has to be Harry Colt.

Does the common DNA of these two holes prove Colt's significant input at The Addington?

Now that I consider it, the 8th at The Addington bears certain resemblance (on a smaller scale) to 13 at Pine Valley.

What say the Colt-ophiles?

Pine Valley #5 and The Addington #13
Both holes play to about 230 yards. The land is extremely similar, dropping away quickly before climbing slowly to a green at more or less the level of the tee. Both holes are bunkeres severely at either side of the green and feature steep, vicious putting surfaces that folow the general fall of the land (R-to-L at The Addington and L-to-R at Pine Valley.



The Addington's 13th:


Pine Valley's 5th:


Pine Valley #13 and The Addington #8
Both holes feature blind drives to hogsback fairways, before the hole kinks left for the long iron approach to a "peninsula" green that falls away on both sides. I don't have extact lengths to hand but I have Pine Valley's 13th in mind at about 440 yards and Addington's 8th at perhaps 410, but more severely uphill and with a narrower fairway and smaller green.



The Addington's 8th tee shot:


Pine Valley's 13th tee shot:


The Addington's 8th approach:


Pine Valley's 13th approach:

[Adam Lawrence]

Addington predates or is just about contemporaneous with PV, no? 1912 or thereabouts (I am not qualified to judge your main argument).

[Scott Warren]

You're right - 1912, which puts it just a year or two before he visited the US.

Here's me thinking 5 and 13 at PV inspired 13 and 8 at The Addington, but maybe it goes the other way?

Obviously that puts a fork in my argument about Colt having seen PV and then building certain holes at The Add like holes from PV, but the reverse argument holds water also (though it's not as pursuesive in the "Aber never saw PV" sense, given Colt hadn't seen PV either when The Add was built!).

[Sean_A]

Scott

I don't know enough about the progression of either course to do anything but make guesses.  We do know that Aber hung about messing with Addy for many years so it may be possible Colt brought back plans of PV and suggested the ideas to make 8 & 13 more PV like.  I would be surprised if this were the case for #13, but I can see additional work being done to the 8th as a possibility.  Although, the case is probably stronger that Colt took ideas from Addy to PV, but that doesn't necessarily mean 8 and 13 at Addy were Colt holes.  8 in particular strikes me as a very severe hole for Colt to design, although I don't know enough about Aber to wonder if he was generally inclined to such severity.  In some ways #13 is incredibly severe, but that may just be a product of having to deal with the ravines and so the hole may be longer than he may have wished. That said, the green site does have a Colt-like feel and he was more inclined to be dramatic with his par 3s.   

It could well be PV's 13th is what Colt thought of as a better version of Addy's 8th. There can be no mistaking the similarity of PV's 5th and Addy's 13th; they are remarkably similar as Finegan hints at in his book on English courses.   

I would be highly surprised if Colt wasn't involved with Addy, but I can't say the course feels like a Colt to me.  Its more jarring and difficult than your typical Colt course.  Just compare other Colt's from the time.  I don't see a lot of similarity with known Colt designs such as Swinley, Camberley Heath and Edgbaston.  Colt always struck me as more genteel with his designs than the other big name British archies of the time - except when it came to par 3s. 

Ciao

[Sean_A]

Bill

Wow, from pix Addy's 3rd doesn't strike me as overly similar to PV's 5th.  I am also surprised you are more fearful of Addy's 3rd than you are of the 13th.  To me the 3rd has space for a miss, the 13th is death down the left which is where balls naturally bounce. 

BTW - I am not positive, but I believe Sunny New's 10th is a Simpson hole.  The original Colt hole was played more on the ridge to the left. 

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Chris
First of all there is no doubt Colt was involved at The Addington, it is well documented. He advertised the course. You do make a great observation regarding the similarities of the two long par-3s. I think you could probably find similarities between holes at St. Georges Hill and PVGC, and Sunningdale New and PVGC, and others too. Supposedly #13 at PV was discovered by Tillinghast; the hole as built differs from the one Colt proposed.

[Paul_Turner]

Scott

The 13th at PVGC was changed after Colt left by Crump/Tillinghast so I don't think there is any connection there with Addington's 8th.

I agree with the similarity between Addington's 13th and Pine Valley's 5th and yes they were built at a similar time.  So perhaps a connection there but probably impossible to prove....Colt didn't write much on his specific courses.   I've played both and reckon the difficulty is similar.

I think, Addington's severity is more just a product of the unusual terrain and random chance as to whether a hole will fit into the routing or not; rather than a particular design philosophy from Colt or Aber.  

Thinking back to courses built by Colt at around the same time and there are courses with severe holes.  it just depends on the terrain - need ravines:  See Hamilton's 6th (1914),  Broadstone's 7th,11th (1913).  Madrid looks to have some too (not played it), particularly the 1st (1912) it has bridge too!  Toronto (1911) has a couple of tough par 3s with ravines at 7th and 17th.  St George's Hill was regarded as severe when it opened.

Later in the 1920s, Meyrick Park's 1st and Brancepeth Castle's 9th, both across ravines, are as severe as any.

Sunn New 10th is Colt's but played from a different angle.  With the 3 restored original holes you will be able to play the 10th from the original tee.

Sean Edgbaston was built in 1936.   That was a mistake in Hawtree's book.

[Tom_Doak]

Of course, it is also possible that Colt simply saw The Addington just before his trip to America, admired the 13th hole, and was moved to suggest a similar hole at Pine Valley.  That happens all the time in golf architecture.

[Ian Andrew]

I love the thread, but unfortunately I don't see this one for the 13th.
Colt's plan does not have the 13th hole.

The 12th is much longer and the 13th is much shorter.
The alignment is quite different.

Paul's Crump/Tilly comment is important, Tilly claimed the hole to be his own creation.

[Sean_A]

Paul

Of course Edgbaston is much later.

Most of the severe holes you cite are par 3s (already a given as Colt is famous for dramatic par 3s), but yes, Broadstone's 7th is very severe.  However, at least you can see the ball! 

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Thanks for the input one and all, I suspected there might be a few significant holes in my theory, but fun to explore nonetheless.

For holes that it appears were not designed alike deliberately, PV 13 and Add 8 do seem to share the same spirit and general set up IMO. But it must be coincidence.

[Mark Pearce]

Paul,

Thanks.  When it was suggested that Colt didn't do severe I thought of the 9th at Brancepeth and chuckled!

[Sean_A]

Paul,

Thanks.  When it was suggested that Colt didn't do severe I thought of the 9th at Brancepeth and chuckled!

Mark

You have your advocacy reading glasses on again eh?  I am beginning to think Paul is a lawyer as well.

Ciao

[JNC Lyon]

Scott,

I think the 13th at Addington resembles a lot of what you see at Pine Valley, and its "heroic long par three" concept is definitely similar to the one at 5 at Pine Valley.  However, if the 13th at Pine Valley is that similar to the 8th at Addington, I think I would be really disappointed with Pine Valley!  8 at Addington has some cool shapes, but its plateau fairway is way overdone.  Plus, I didn't see the Redan characteristics on the second shot of Addy's 8th that seem to make Pine Valley's 13th so distinctive.

Bottom line: only 13 at Addington and 5 at Pine Valley seem similar, and that doesn't seem to prove that Colt was involved at The Addington.  The better proof: the consistently high quality of the par threes at Addington (minus the strange opener), and the fact that the routing at Addington relies heavily on the placement of the par threes, a Colt staple.

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

I'm always in advocate mode when seated at my desk.

You should play Brancepeth sometime , by the way.

[Sean_A]

JNC

Other than the 11th, all the par 3s deal with ravines, elevation issues or in the case of the 7th, just a wee spit of land that could house a par 3.  They are all link holes to make an unruly property work - why else have 6 par 3s?  To me this isn't really about Colt, its about using the property which was probably compromised a bit by the idea of another 18 holes.  

For the 8th, I strongly suspect the trees were much less intrusive than now.  Still, both sides drop sharply.  It seems to me that the fairway should be concave, not convex.  

Mark

I would like to play BC some day.  Its just a damn long way to go. 

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

John L,

13 at PV is longer than 8 at Add, but the tee shot at Add is more uphill and the fairway is more severe.

The Add 8 is kinda like 13 at PV photocopied at 80% and with bigger teeth.