[Kevin_Reilly]

Back in the 1970's PV was in the Guinness Book of World Records under the category "Most Difficult Golf Course".  I had a copy of the 1974 Edition, and that was where I first saw Pine Valley listed.  The description of the course was "generally regarded as the world's most trying course" or something similar.

[Doug Wright]

I would say the AVERAGE golfer has never even heard of it or if they have they did not remember.

I'd agree with this.

When I heard about Pine Valley many years ago pre GCA I'd classify myself as an average golfer in the sense  that I'd played some nice courses and traveled some but wasn't nuts about golf or golf architecture. When I heard about Pine Valley back then I heard "penal, brutal, unplayable for the average player." I'm sure this was hearsay. Years later (about 15 years ago) someone I know  played it and said it was not nearly as hard as he'd been led to believe. I would totally agree with that. Although nearly every shot at PV is challenging (and makes you think, which I think is its essence), Pine Valley is playable for almost anyone. 

[Sam Morrow]

The average golfer only knows courses he sees on TV. When I was in Philly a few weeks ago I was sitting at dinner with relatives who claimed to be big golfers. We were talking about courses when they all asked me about Redstone because it looks so good on TV. At this point the GCA'er in me wanted to go off on a rant about what a lackluster course it is and name the courses in Houston I would rather play, instead I took a gulp of my drink and changed the subject to Philly golf. When I mentioned Pine Valley one guy asked me if that was the "little course" behind the waterpark. It was time for another gulp, this time I asked him what his favorite courses were and he quickly gave me the following response, "Augusta, Pebble Beach, Doral, and Torrey Pines."

[Patrick_Mucci]

There is a picture of Pat Mucci on this site playing Mountain Ridge with pink shorts cut at an uncomfortable length above the knee.  
When you've been through five heart procedures and spent about a year on chemo and radiation, you really don't care about what people think about the color or length of your shorts.  Plus, I do have long legs, fortunately, they're long enough to reach the ground.

He knows not of what an average golfer is and never will.

I probably know more about them than you, having grown up playing on public courses with your "average golfer"

Not to mention, he posted on another thread that he's been playing Pine Valley for 47 years.  
Either he is lying when he says he hasn't been a member of an east coast blue blood club his entire life or he is as old as shit.  
I first played PV in 1964, the year I graduated from college.
I'll let you do the math.

As to east coast blue blood clubs, how many of them have had members whose names end in a vowel ?
Take your time, or call a "life line phone #" for help.
You obviously don't know much about east coast blue blood clubs.

[JC Jones]

Yeah, this is the same sob story that Mike Sweeney always sings.  You had it rough being Italian; he had it rough being Irish.  Meanwhile he grew up playing Merion so much he calls it like playing in his backyard.

[Steve Lang]

   he probably knows that Trump's place next door is better...


JC, probably about the same as Belvedere.. how about WEds twilight?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yeah, this is the same sob story that Mike Sweeney always sings.  You had it rough being Italian; he had it rough being Irish. 

No one said it was rough, it was just a disqualifier for being a member of an East Coast Blue Blood Club.
You should have known that

Meanwhile he grew up playing Merion so much he calls it like playing in his backyard.

Where do you get off telling Mike or myself how we grew up and/or where we played ?

Mike was never a member of Merion and didn't grow up playing there as you so cavalierly insist.
Caddies have restricted play and so do guests.
You should know that as well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The municipal golfer that is a mid to high handicapper and wears stripes with plaids.

Anthony,

What does that same golfer know about GCA.com ?

[JC Jones]

Yeah, this is the same sob story that Mike Sweeney always sings.  You had it rough being Italian; he had it rough being Irish. 

No one said it was rough, it was just a disqualifier for being a member of an East Coast Blue Blood Club.
You should have known that

Meanwhile he grew up playing Merion so much he calls it like playing in his backyard.

Where do you get off telling Mike or myself how we grew up and/or where we played ?

Mike was never a member of Merion and didn't grow up playing there as you so cavalierly insist.
Caddies have restricted play and so do guests.
You should know that as well.

The comment about Merion is Mike's, not mine.  You should ask him some time; he is quite a good guy to talk to and have a beer with.

[Anthony Gray]

The municipal golfer that is a mid to high handicapper and wears stripes with plaids.

Anthony,

What does that same golfer know about GCA.com ?

  He knows what he likes on his pizza. He has heard of Augusta National but he refers to it as The Masters. And he's heard of Pebble Beach alot more than Pine Valley. If you asked him which course he would rather play,he would choose Pebble Beach over Pine Valley 10 out of 10 times. Pine Valley is just not that popular with the average golfer.

  Anthony

[JC Jones]

  he probably knows that Trump's place next door is better...


JC, probably about the same as Belvedere.. how about WEds twilight?

Weds twilight works for me; I'll call the course I know the members often have Wednesday afternoon games.

[Tim Martin]

Without the advent of the magazine ratings and a little luck in tuning into the Shell`s match from the 1960`s while channel surfing probably nothing.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

The municipal golfer that is a mid to high handicapper and wears stripes with plaids.

Anthony,

What does that same golfer know about GCA.com ?

  He knows what he likes on his pizza. He has heard of Augusta National but he refers to it as The Masters. And he's heard of Pebble Beach alot more than Pine Valley. If you asked him which course he would rather play,he would choose Pebble Beach over Pine Valley 10 out of 10 times. Pine Valley is just not that popular with the average golfer.


On what scientific basis have you established this ?

[JC Jones]

The municipal golfer that is a mid to high handicapper and wears stripes with plaids.

Anthony,

What does that same golfer know about GCA.com ?

  He knows what he likes on his pizza. He has heard of Augusta National but he refers to it as The Masters. And he's heard of Pebble Beach alot more than Pine Valley. If you asked him which course he would rather play,he would choose Pebble Beach over Pine Valley 10 out of 10 times. Pine Valley is just not that popular with the average golfer.


On what scientific basis have you established this ?

The same scientific basis on which you've established what a "real golfer" is.

Pat, when is the last time you played a course with a twilight rate?

[David Harshbarger]

I did my own quick poll of active golfers. 2-3 correctly placed PV in NJ, with a confidence level of p < .5 . (not very)

All 3 were surprised they didn't know it is widely regarded as the world's best course.  About what I expected from the matches their outfits and plays nice public courses set.

I'll report back from the bucket-o-LaBatt's-on-ice-collared-shirt-not-happening set next.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC Jones,

I didn't know that you thought that Anthony Gray was so stupid that you had to answer questions for him,

He doesn't need your help, let him answer for himself.

If you don't the difference between someone who plays golf and a "golfer", there's no point in me trying to explain it to you.

As to clubs that offer "twilight" rates in my area, if you'll name them, I'll tell you when I last played them.

[JC Jones]

If you don't the difference between someone who plays golf and a "golfer", there's no point in me trying to explain it to you.

So very scientific.

Doesn't Bethpage offer twilight?

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC Jones,

Bethpage is more than two hours from my home.

[JC Jones]

JC Jones,

Bethpage is more than two hours from my home.

And 15 minutes from your club?

[Richard Choi]

If I went to a local popular public course and asked everyone there, I doubt that more than 10% would even know what Pine Valley is.

How would you know that it even exists unless you are an avid reader of golf magazines? And avid readers of golf magazine is not exactly what I would call average golfers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC Jones,

Bethpage is more than two hours from my home.

And 15 minutes from your club?

"MY" club, Mountain Ridge, is 4 minutes from my house, driveway to driveway.

I'm also a member of Hidden Creek, a 2+hour ride from my home, but, I don't play there on a daily basis either

If you can get from GCGC to Bethpage in 15 minutes, you're using a helicopter, and a super fast one at that.
Obviously, you're not familiar with driving on LI..

[Peter Sayegh]

I can tell you what THIS average golfer knows about Pine Valley.
If you drive an hour and a half from Manasquan to Pine Valley just to get a glimpse of the place: (a) no one within two miles knows exactly where it is, and (b) the guy at the gate house won't let you even see one tee box or fairway (or steal a couple blades of grass).
He was able to give me a scorecard though.
Should "average" and "Pine Valley" ever appear in the same sentence, no matter the context?

[Mark Chaplin]

Gordon Jones tells a good story of going to a fast food store within two miles of PV, dressing as he does like a young bobby Jones the server asked him if he was golfing. Naturally Gordon acted very smugly and said he was visiting Pine Valley. The server had never heard of it but his mate was an avid golfer, calling over he'd never heard of Pine Valley either but highly recommended a nearby goat track!!

I'd guess 99% of British golfers have never heard of PV.

[Tom ORourke]

Probably next to nothing. I think the key is the lack of TV. And I believe it is more famous for not being seen, for being exclusive with the lack of events, the lack of women members, the mystery of being private, and you can't even drive by it. In fact, you can't even find it by accident unless you do not realize you missed the turn off for Clementon Park. It is the Howard Hughes of great courses. You know it is there, but has anyone seen it? I have played it, and been to the Crump Cup a few times. It is great to hear people who know nothing about the course get to holes 2, 3, and 4, and realize that you can't get up those hills in high heels (really?), or if you are old and out of shape. Pictures do not do the course justice as far as the slopes, the scale, or the beauty. I think some golfers have heard of the famous areas of the course that have the great nicknames, but that is the extent of what they know. Maybe they have seen Nelson and Littler on the Shell series, but where else would they learn? I would love to see some great players on there to see how they play the course but that does not seem possible. I have loved spectating at events at Merion, Augusta, Bethpage, Winged Foot, etc. I wish there was some way PV could open its doors now and then so more people could see it. I would love to see the Tour Championship go there with the 30 finalists, and only sell tickets to one day per person to get more people in, but I don't see that happening in my lifetime.   

[Dale_McCallon]

Does the average golfer follow rankings at all?  I know when I used to read golf mags, I would always be interested in course openings, travel, etc., but everyone else I knew was more concerned about the "X Factor" or "getting rid of their slice in 5 minutes" articles that are in the mags every week.

Why would an average golfer care that a private, very exclusive (even though they must have a pace of play problem) club in NJ is supposed to be the best golf course in America?  I've been told that I really need to go to Alinea or the French Laundry for an unforgettable meal, but I'm quite happy w/ a burger from Five Guys.

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