What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...

[John Kavanaugh]

and what could be done to take them out?  From my experience it will take more than a little tree trimming to get fans removed once they are installed. 

[Mike Sweeney]

and what could be done to take them out?  From my experience it will take more than a little tree trimming to get fans removed once they are installed. 

Move the course to Vermont.

It is freaking South Jersey on hot sand in July with green speeds 50% more than when the place opened. Go try to walk the sand on the beach in Atlantic City today without shoes. And Pine Valley does not sit on the ocean. They aren't going to Bermuda and please don't lecture us about the clay deposits of the Southern Midwest........

[Gene Greco]

                       Nothing.


I was there the day before Patrick played in their Senior Member-Guest and after Shultz's yoga class and it was like an oven.

The fans were NOT on.

According to the super they only turn them on when it rains to more evenly distribute the water.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gene,

Interestingly enough, it poured on Friday afternoon and evening.

The fans are used selectively, not systemically.

JakaB is just unfamiliar with the weather in that neck of the woods.

You're lucky in that Southampton gets those delightful breezes/winds off the Atlantic and LI Sound.

[John Kavanaugh]

Pat and Gene,

Thank you for your replies, I got a good laugh at the water distribution excuse.  I think sometimes Supers spend a little to much time talking to their dogs and getting no questions asked in return.

I know hot and humid living in the armpit of hell.  What I don't understand is how golf has suddenly changed to the point that we need giant mechanical devices to keep greens alive that were perfectly satisfactory for years.  It seems odd that hundreds of millions of dollars was spent on agronomic research and superintendent education and their eureka moment was to blow air on it. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Pat and Gene,

Thank you for your replies, I got a good laugh at the water distribution excuse.  I think sometimes Supers spend a little to much time talking to their dogs and getting no questions asked in return.

I know hot and humid living in the armpit of hell.  What I don't understand is how golf has suddenly changed to the point that we need giant mechanical devices to keep greens alive that were perfectly satisfactory for years.  It seems odd that hundreds of millions of dollars was spent on agronomic research and superintendent education and their eureka moment was to blow air on it. 

John,

the reason why so much money is spent on research is to convince golf clubs to spend even more in maintenance. Pat & Gene have given good answers but this still leaves the question why do they need fans now when it was not needed before?

Jon

[George Freeman]

but this still leaves the question why do they need fans now when it was not needed before?

Isn't the answer modern green speeds??

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

Like it or not, the golfing world has embraced fast greens.

Now you can define fast greens differently, or within a range, but, the golfing world has come to expect fast greens.

With that in mind, you can't keep greens consistently fast without protecting them against Mother Nature.

Fans are part of that support system.

Would I prefer that they not exist ?  Certainly, but, when they allow a golf course to provide consistently fast greens under difficult weather conditions, you have to accept the bad with the good.

They've become a necessary evil, but, one that's tolerable in light of their effectiveness.

I have noticed, at a club with one fan, that that green is firmer and faster than the others.

[Brent Hutto]

I'd have paid a nickel to have a fan blowing on me this weekend while standing around on the green waiting on my playing companions to line up putts. Our Bermuda grass doesn't need it but it sure would have felt nice.

Anyone who takes practice strokes when it's 95 degrees and sunny deserves ought to receive a penalty stroke.

[Chris Cupit]

Pat and Gene,

Thank you for your replies, I got a good laugh at the water distribution excuse.  I think sometimes Supers spend a little to much time talking to their dogs and getting no questions asked in return.

I know hot and humid living in the armpit of hell.  What I don't understand is how golf has suddenly changed to the point that we need giant mechanical devices to keep greens alive that were perfectly satisfactory for years.  It seems odd that hundreds of millions of dollars was spent on agronomic research and superintendent education and their eureka moment was to blow air on it.  

John,

the reason why so much money is spent on research is to convince golf clubs to spend even more in maintenance. Pat & Gene have given good answers but this still leaves the question why do they need fans now when it was not needed before?

Jon

As some may have mentioned golfers have continued to demand faster greens which means much lower heights of cut.  I also think there is a demand to have a course in "peak" condition or tournamnet condition as close to 24/7 as possible.

As an example, in 1981 I beleive the green speed at the US Open was stimped in the high 8"s.  8.7 seems to ring a bell.  When height of green cut went from a quarter of an inch to heights of .100 for example at this year's US Open (maybe .105 or >110), then more of this "intensive care" is needed.  

Also, at a high end club with plenty of money, try telling that group that they don't "need" greens that fast

It has been a trend that cuts both ways--an incredible jump in standards of conditioning and play and yet an incredible increase in cost for the overwhelming number of courses not built in ideal climates.

Lastly, if you have the resources and approval from your boss to do everything possible to prevent a disaster (significant turf loss) wouldn't anyone avail themselves of that?  Fans do work and they are usually only up for a few months at a time.  Maybe it is hotter today in that area than 75 years ago?  I am sure the turf standards are significantly better even at Pine Valley than 25 years ago.  I think I have a program from the 1985 Walker Cup Match and if so I'll try and post some pictures.  I am guessing some of the greens may look absolutely "fuzzy' compared to today.    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brent,

On more than a few occassions I observed golfers standing in front of those fans while their partners and opponents were putting.
I was one of them.

It was in the 90's and humid and those fans were a welcome relief.

My shirt was so wet that you would have thought I had come from swimming in it, that's how hot and humid it was.

[John Kavanaugh]

JakaB,

Like it or not, the golfing world has embraced fast greens.

Yes and they have also embraced excuses for mechanical devices.  Someone needs to take a stance.  I hereby give my word that I will not accept an invite to play Pine Valley under any circumstance where green fans are in place, on or off, during my play.  There are plenty of other great courses for me to travel to enjoy who have not felt the need to follow silly trends at the expense of greatness.  Sadly I do not have the luxury of such a boycott of my home course, as when you are married to a place you accept flaws that you would not from a mistress.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

Like it or not, the golfing world has embraced fast greens.

Yes and they have also embraced excuses for mechanical devices.  Someone needs to take a stance.  I hereby give my word that I will not accept an invite to play Pine Valley under any circumstance where green fans are in place, on or off, during my play.  There are plenty of other great courses for me to travel to enjoy who have not felt the need to follow silly trends at the expense of greatness.  Sadly I do not have the luxury of such a boycott of my home course, as when you are married to a place you accept flaws that you would not from a mistress.

JakaB,

I'm going to call your bluff.

I want a $ 25,000 performance, default bond to back up your stance.

Accepting an invitation to PV in the summer, knowing the fans may be in use would result in forfeiture of your $ 25,000.

As soon as you put the default, performance bond up, I"ll get you the invite 

[Brent Hutto]

My shirt was so wet that you would have thought I had come from swimming in it, that's how hot and humid it was.

I know the feeling.

We were giving one of my frequent playing companions grief Saturday because he went in the clubhouse between nines and changed to a dry shirt, then changed again to yet another dry shirt as soon as we walked off 18.

So I tried it his way on Sunday and I've got to admit, he has the right idea!

[John Kavanaugh]

Pat,

In car, will work out details later.

[Mike Sweeney]

Pat,

In car, will work out details later.

Shelly Solow or Shivas can also set up an escrow account for the two of you. This should be interesting. 

[Chris Cupit]

JakaB,

Like it or not, the golfing world has embraced fast greens.

Yes and they have also embraced excuses for mechanical devices.  Someone needs to take a stance.  I hereby give my word that I will not accept an invite to play Pine Valley under any circumstance where green fans are in place, on or off, during my play.  There are plenty of other great courses for me to travel to enjoy who have not felt the need to follow silly trends at the expense of greatness.  Sadly I do not have the luxury of such a boycott of my home course, as when you are married to a place you accept flaws that you would not from a mistress.

I agree with you that somehow the endless and unsustainable quest for faster and bigger, better no matter what must stop. Trouble is, we are in a Mexican stand off and who is going to be the first to put down their gun?  I'd love to have a more sustainable and affordable course but there is no way in hell I am going to be the first to lower my standards--my competitors would eat me alive.  They would say, "Do you really want to play that course that has brown fairways, greens running 8.8 and no scented towels (no, I don't have scented towels) when you can pay a little more and play this lush green course with fast greens and a 16 year old cart girl with shorts barely covering her ass who can sell you beer in the DZ of 18 fairway!!

Oh, and if the CCFAD or other club goes broke overspending then they can just declare bankruptcy, get bought by someone else at a lower valuation and keep on selling cheap golf with no consequences. 

Sorry for the rant and JK, you are spot on on a tonne of what you say.  But what golfer is going to be OK with crappier conditions?

[Marty Bonnar]

"...where topographical and weather conditions would support the construction of a golf course that could be played year round."

Would that count as a 'Fail' then?

cheers,
FBD.

[John Kavanaugh]

Chris,

I fully understand your need to keep up.  What I don't understand is how the undisputed leader in golf became a follower.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

It's almost impossible to break the trend.

I've always enjoyed the brown conditions at many British Opens, but, until TV starts to emphasize brownish-yellowish-greenish conditions in conjunction with fast and firm conditions, the die is cast.

Once you've putted reasonably fast greens, you really don't want to go back to slow greens.

I think that's a universal.

The question is, what speed range do you select.
9-11 seems good to me, with an occassional 12 for high caliber competitions.

Your thoughts

[John Kavanaugh]

It's almost impossible to break the trend.

Patrick,

I wish the above would have been the first post you had colored yellow.

[Kevin Jackson]

Camargo Club just installed 2 greenside fans less than a month ago.  Sadly, one was put on the par 3 Eden 5th, and the other on the 6th.  It is such a shame to me to see a fan on the back right side of the Eden hole, it is such an eye sore.  I wonder how much it will be used when the club has to remove 400 ash trees over the next year, and about a dozen or so directly around that green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

Doesn't your home club, Victoria National have fans on at least two of the greens ?

[Chris Cupit]

Chris,

It's almost impossible to break the trend.

I've always enjoyed the brown conditions at many British Opens, but, until TV starts to emphasize brownish-yellowish-greenish conditions in conjunction with fast and firm conditions, the die is cast.

Once you've putted reasonably fast greens, you really don't want to go back to slow greens.

I think that's a universal.

The question is, what speed range do you select.
9-11 seems good to me, with an occassional 12 for high caliber competitions.

Your thoughts

I, too, love fast greens and I belong to a course specifically because I am willing to pay to have excellent conditions.  If the conditions and standards were to fall, I would not stay a Member.

I like 10-11 and I realize that a genuine 10-11 is very fast.  Few people have actually ever seen a stimpmeter used or have a clue what the measurement means.  I hear guys talking about how the greens were 10.5 today or 11 or how so and so course was a 13 and I just laugh as these guys don't have a clue.  Most measurements I see posted are pure fiction as well and my heart truly goes out to any super whose board thinks they need daily stimpmeter readings!

I absolutely beleive that slightly slower greens in the 9.5-10 range with greens that have significant contour are a MUCH better test of short game and putting skill than flattish greens that stimp above 11.  I will assume we are speaking of smooth greens.

Trying to keeps greens above 11 for everyday play is ludicrous.  95% of golfers would have more fun, play faster and actually have shots that they could try and execute if greens were slowed down significantly.  It's never gonna happen though.

JK--Excellent point but how long would PV stay #1 if their greens got a reputation for being "slow"?  You would almost immediately hear about what a crock their #1 rating is

      

[John Kavanaugh]

JakaB,

Doesn't your home club, Victoria National have fans on at least two of the greens ?

I fought the battle from day one.  I lost as we now have at least one fan on each green.  My only consolation is that I am still there and the super who started the disaster is not, but he did get his picture on the fan companies brochure.  It is now a plague infecting the entire industry.

The same company that sold us the sub-air sold us the fans. I have not given up hope and continue to fight for their removal. I am making strides no matter how small.