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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2011, 05:58:29 PM »
Yes, its not quite right to compare a course in a local market against a giant on the world stage.  As JakaB suggests, PV is certainly above the fray of looking for business and can set any standard they damn well please.  It so happens that the members set the standards and if they are willing to put up with fans for an extra foot on the stimp, its their right.   I find it a great shame that golf continues to head in this sort of escalating costs direction and it will mean more course closures.  If the PV/ANGC/Oakmont method of maintenance is what clubs are aspiring to its probably good thing they shut down. When did golfers become so self-obsessed that they feel below 10 on the stimp is not up to scratch?  What a waste.  I hope golfers can more easily see why the game has a bad rep when stupid stuff like fans are needed to play golf.  

Ciao    
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2011, 06:11:58 PM »
Sean,

Golfers became obsessed when TV, week in and week out televised those conditions for all to see.

It should be noted that many small or local clubs had fans long before Pine Valley, so, Pine Valley isn't setting the standard here, prudent agronomic practices are the driving force.  Why not use technology to improve your product ?

Secondly, the members of PV don't have much of a say in how the golf course should be prepared, maintained or altered.
However, in general, I think there's a common or universal level of expectation shared by all.

Whom amongst us is advocating greens stimping at 6-8 ?
Please come forward.

It ain't gonna happen.

Once you've been introduced to reasonably fast greens, it's like being introduced to sex with a woman, you know that you want to enjoy that experience over and over again, and that you're NOT going back to your own version, except in dire times. ;D

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2011, 06:17:54 PM »
John
You have made strides somewhere for sure.
Have you seen the mongo fan models?
I'm guessing unless the USGA puts a size restricting on them they will keep getting bigger.
Give that company a call and see what is in the works from their R&D

Pat
Try the spandex blend golf shirts
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2011, 06:19:38 PM »
Patrick,

I would prefer my home course be closed for July and August than have the fans.  I would prefer green speeds of 6-8 over it be closed.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2011, 06:20:27 PM »
I wish that Pine Tree had fans, if this was the case! :)
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2011, 06:23:36 PM »
We recently had a visit from the USGA green consultant as we are planning to gas and regrass our greens.  In areas where there are air circulation problems, he pushed fans and recommended LARGE ones, albeit painted greens and concealed as best as possible.  Looks like we may be seeing more of them.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2011, 06:27:22 PM »
We recently had a visit from the USGA green consultant as we are planning to gas and regrass our greens.  In areas where there are air circulation problems, he pushed fans and recommended LARGE ones, albeit painted greens and concealed as best as possible.  Looks like we may be seeing more of them.

Like I said above, where did the research money go?  Please come down and see me before you guys blow it.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2011, 06:31:07 PM »
Pat,

I've feet 8 is enough on any course with interesting/undulating greens, even though 9 would likely be better.

The problem here in Spokane is that for whatever reason, most of the courses have gone too slow.  All my local faves including Indian Canyon are stimping at 6 to 7 and it just sucks.

Matter of fact, as Indian Canyon prepares for a mini-tour event, they have acheived what I've never before seen in my playing days.  They have firm greens that are not very receptive, yet at the same time they are slow and bumpy.  What an ugly combination, but no doubt due to the courses lack of length they are doing this to frustrate all the good players who are coming to town and keep the low numbers from getting too crazy.

Needless to say i'm pretty bummed at how boring the greens have become because they have so little break to them as compared to when they used to keep em at about 8.5.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2011, 06:40:00 PM »
Sean,

Golfers became obsessed when TV, week in and week out televised those conditions for all to see.

It should be noted that many small or local clubs had fans long before Pine Valley, so, Pine Valley isn't setting the standard here, prudent agronomic practices are the driving force.  Why not use technology to improve your product ?

Secondly, the members of PV don't have much of a say in how the golf course should be prepared, maintained or altered.
However, in general, I think there's a common or universal level of expectation shared by all.

Whom amongst us is advocating greens stimping at 6-8 ?
Please come forward.

It ain't gonna happen.

Once you've been introduced to reasonably fast greens, it's like being introduced to sex with a woman, you know that you want to enjoy that experience over and over again, and that you're NOT going back to your own version, except in dire times. ;D

Pat

Yes, I know fans have been used down south forever.  Its because they either try to use the wrong grass for the climate or try to keep them too short for the climate.  Either way, its not a model to follow especially for a world famous club such as PV.  If clubs used 9 stimp as the new 11 things in general would be a lot better if you ask me, but then golfers have always been known to have more money than sense.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2011, 06:45:25 PM »
Solow
Painting things brown hides them better
You can see the leaves more easily than the trunk
cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2011, 07:00:06 PM »
Sean,

The first fans I ever saw were in California a decade or so ago at Sherwood in Thousand Oaks.
It was about 105 and you could fry eggs on the sidewalk.

One was on a par 3 that sat in a canyonesque hollow with no air circulation.
Did I like their presence ?  No, but, they were a necessary evil that protected the green.

Next, I believe I saw them at Metedeconk, in Jackson, NJ.
Same issue.

As to PV and your assumption about 9 on the stimp.
Without them you could barely get to 6 with difficult weather patterns unless you wanted to risk losing them.
I'm not an advocate of fans, but, I realize their agronomic value and the resultant playing values.
You live in a climate that most don't enjoy, but, one in which greens won't die quickly.
When temps and humidity get over 90 for an extended period, they can be the difference between life and death.

JakaB.

Maybe you would advocate for closing your course, but if I took a poll of your members, I'd bet that they wouldn't vote with you.
They're paying their dues and they want to play in the prime summer months, not in January.

Kalen,

I don't think 8 is satisfactory today.

9-11 seems to be a good range with 12 for special occassions.

Fast greens demand more than touch, they require nerves and the ability to read and execute.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2011, 07:21:44 PM »

JakaB.

Maybe you would advocate for closing your course, but if I took a poll of your members, I'd bet that they wouldn't vote with you.


Patrick,

We were the first course in the country to have sub-air installed on all 18 greens.  The same company that sold us the sub-air convinced our young ex-superintendent that sub-air was a failed technology and we needed to abandon it and buy fans from him. I promise you that if we had been given a chance to vote we would have stayed with the sub-air.  We are now under new ownership who are restoring the sub-air green by green and the results are undeniably positive.  The fans run less than in the past and are removed for quite some time during the fall thru spring seasons. I have hope but have been shaken about the news of Pine Valley and Shelly's course.  I believe we are in an economic climate where people are, and justifiably need to be, protecting their jobs before the quality of our playing experience. I will tell you that since the installation of the fans our greens are better but our number of rounds are down.  Each could be a result of thousands of factors.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2011, 07:37:44 PM »
The crux of this story is that it is almost impossible to kill a green if you surround it with enough large fans. They are robotic greens keepers who work all day long and through the night.  I was first surprised to learn that they run 24 hrs a day.  They symbolize everything we try to escape from in our jobs when we go to relax playing golf.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2011, 09:22:03 PM »
The crux of this story is that it is almost impossible to kill a green if you surround it with enough large fans. They are robotic greens keepers who work all day long and through the night.  I was first surprised to learn that they run 24 hrs a day.  They symbolize everything we try to escape from in our jobs when we go to relax playing golf.

So John, if your cardiologist says that he needs to implant a pacemaker, one that runs 24/7, you're going to tell him that you'll refuse that device because you're trying to escape the robotic nature of labor and life saving devices ? ;D

I don't think there's any correlation between the fans and reduced rounds.;
Almost every course I know of has a reduced number of rounds.
The fans just might be a less expensive form of agronomic TLC that greens need in times of stress. 

« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 09:25:04 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2011, 09:59:09 PM »
Pat,

I could get lap band surgery and become more attractive to my wife.  I also choose to remain obese at the risk of both diabetes and heart disease.  Why I do not look for easy answers that could improve my life is beyond me.  Sure I may not live as long as science may desire but I will live knowing that I didn't always take the easiest road just because it was the latest fad or some salesman pressured me to do so.  Fans are just another easy answer where difficult choices could produce the same result. I need to work hard and lose weight and supers need to make difficult choices and keep greens alive. Isn't that going to improve the quality of our experiences over the latest greatest obtrusive mechanical fad?  Let's earn it.

Will MacEwen

Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2011, 12:21:17 AM »
Once you've been introduced to reasonably fast greens, it's like being introduced to sex with a woman, you know that you want to enjoy that experience over and over again, and that you're NOT going back to your own version, except in dire times. ;D

Pat

Try the spandex blend golf shirts

No wonder those shirts come at a premium.

I remember seeing fans on some of the greens at Royal Montreal about 15 years ago. 

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2011, 12:50:25 AM »
Does anyone know if there are any courses in Australia where fans are used.

I have never seen one in all my 45 years of golfing Down Under. Golfing in 90% humidity and 44 degrees Centigrade (mad dogs and Scotsmen go out in the midday sun). No fans seen but they would surely be an abomination.

I agree with John Kavanaugh and oh that reminds me......... half a Vegemite sandwich is better than none.

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2011, 02:05:20 AM »
I am sure the turf standards are significantly better even at Pine Valley than 25 years ago.  

Chris,

if this is true then why do they need life support systems now? This desire for speed is industry driven and not for the good of the game, the clubs or the golfer. The only people benefitting is big business :-[

Jon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2011, 02:16:03 AM »
Yes, that was my idea.  If the turf is so healthy, why do they need fans?  Perhaps we need to adjust the definition of healthy to be more in line with sustainable.  Count me as a guy in favour of using the grass that is meant to be in a climate.  That may mean less than ideal greens for some of the year, but it would seem that greens can never be ideal enough for some folks.

BTW - I saw fans down in SC about 18 years ago (and I am sure they were around before that).  I was shocked by their presence and wondered wtf was going on.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2011, 03:47:43 AM »
I find this thread very disturbing.  Mostly because I appear to agree with John K.

Pat,

You appear to be saying that PV needs fans even to maintain greens at a 9 on the Stimpmeter.  Were they really slower than that before the installation of fans?  If so, how did the course ever achieve the acclaim it has?  I'm also puzzled by the apparent conflict between your arguments on this thread and the earlier one where you bemoaned the fact that modern green speeds had required the alteration of greens at these classic courses.  Can you honestly say that PV couldn't resolve the problem by leaving its greens as they were, maintaining green speeds at, say, 9 feet and getting rid of the fans?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2011, 03:52:44 AM »
I understand why courses need fans but there is no way in the world a course can be number 1 in the world with fans. 

Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2011, 07:03:35 AM »
Why PV needs fans;
The greens are Poa in a crappy summer climate, so without help want to die
They are old push up greens that hold water (although the aggressive aeration program they've been on is helping)
The greens are generally sheltered which restricts air movement (again they have been removing trees/brush which helps)
Green speeds / general condition expectations have increased over the years (not only a PV thing)

For a period about ten years ago they had a number of bad summers where the greens suffered, the fans were introduced after that to help alleviate the heat/excess moisture stress in their unique setting and coupled with the aforementioned aeration program I believe they haven't had any major turf loss since (anyone remember how brutal last summer was?) So the fans work.

As for fans in general:
They are not 'robotic greenkeepers' just another tool to force our will on mother nature, fooling her into thinking a microclimate is something it isn't so we can get the results we require. Can a badly located green survive a bad summer - sure, maybe..... A super can nurse those greens through but at what cost? Raised height of cut, more fertility, constant babying, aerating etc etc when all they really are is a band aid when the proper fix is more air, so why not provide it? Then of course there are the playability issues, slower greens, wetter greens and inconsistency with the 'good greens', why should the good ones be managed a different way to match the bad ones if they don't need it?

Air and water are the two most important aspects of turf management and for the most part they go hand-in-hand. Water can be added but it's not easy to make go away, and you need it to go away to provide better air movement/exchange. I use the analogy of a sauna to describe the difference between a subair and fan usage. They complement each other but are not necessarily a replacement for each other as they do two different things. Think of a sauna, if all the air is sucked out it's still not a comfortable place to be (subair) but if a fan is added it makes it a little more pleasant..... obviously both together make it even better, but given the choice the fan will do more as it's an instant relief from the air passing over which cools, and as it provides a cool area so the plant can transpire it will cool itself relieving stress.

I agree greenspeed and the current maintenance requirements add to the stress that require these machines but if we have a tool that can help us achieve the results required by our members/guests then why not use it, especially if it provides the conditions, consistent playing conditions and can actually save money (remember all that nursing, extra fert, labor etc, does not come cheap)
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2011, 07:20:09 AM »
As much as fans are a tool, sub air is the same thing...just a tool, not an easy fix. (Jaka, for the record, you would have no need in southern Indiana for fans fall through spring.)
  We had 4 fans up around every green at Colonial, sub air under every green and the conbination allowed us to get through the summer, barely.
  Without question, turfgrass directly infront of a fan is much healthy, dense and has longer roots. Many of America's top courses have them and they've been around a lot longer than we think-Pine Valley, Muirfield Village, Honors, Victoria, Southern Hills, Kinloch, Congo to name a few. Even Oakmont had fans up leading into the US Women's open last year... I don't see anyone boycotting OCC.
 I know that I've missed a bunch, but most of those courses are located in areas where temperatures reach 100 OR the conbinationof high humidity and 90+ occurs 4-6+ weeks out of the year. Unfortunately, those same courses are located in areas where bermudagrass is not an option because it gets too cold in the winter. I think that this is big deal over nothing. I think a fan is much better than not having grass.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2011, 09:07:27 AM »
My reference to more was nationally.  My club will work to avoid them but there may be 2 spots where it is desireable, both of which are in corners where air flow is blocked by factors we may not be able to control.  Thanks for the advice.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2011, 10:06:26 AM »
My reference to more was nationally.  My club will work to avoid them but there may be 2 spots where it is desireable, both of which are in corners where air flow is blocked by factors we may not be able to control.  Thanks for the advice.

Shel,

Sadly it is a slippery slope.  You put in two fans and something unusual happens and the greens with fans respond better than those without.  So you get two more and two more and so and so on until you have one on each green "just in case".  I completely understand that once a fan is installed no super is going to risk his job by not turning it on or taking it out completely.  Greens die for many reasons and if a green dies that had a fan that was removed the super will be the one to take the fall.  

I am also a member of a course in the same town as Victoria that could not afford the largest fans money could buy so they bought smaller models from the same company.  They have also had success with less noise and intrusion.  

I do wish, if not you, the people in charge of this decision would visit Victoria National to get an understanding of the impact, both good and bad, of the fans.  

I am going to go play today in 100 degree heat on perfect greens.  I will even stand in front of the fans to cool off.  I must be a fool to not embrace this perfection as it is served to me on a silver platter.  I'll have fun, enjoy the time with my friends and make a little money, what more could a man want?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 10:10:00 AM by John Kavanaugh »

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