[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, Pine Valley a championship course? Do you write promo material for the RTJ GOLF trail?  But seriously, what "championships" have they held, beyond the Crump Cup? Not taking away from the course, just curious. And it might not be perenially #1 as a matter of course, but it aught to be mighty high, like top 2 or 3.

Jamie,

Prior to typing, you should have researched the intent behind the creation of Pine Valley.

It was crafted for the championship golfer, not the broad spectrum of golfers that every other course was crafted for.

If, in your judgement, PV is # 2 or 3, what course are you placing before it ?

Patrick championship is overused.

Not in the context and purpose of the creation of Pine Valley.


If a course has not held any events its not "championship" but that's just my opinion.

I'd consider the "Walker Cup" a Championship.
The BEST amateur golfers in the UK and the U.S. competing has to be defined as a championship.

I understand well the intent of the club.

Then you know that PV wasn't created for the broad spectrum of golfer that almost every other club was created for.

Championship in your eyes is defined by one element, DISTANCE..
That's the predominant element that seperates "championship" courses from all other courses.

At 7,057, par 70 Pine Valley is no easy test, it's a Championship golf course.

If your definition of a championship golf course is limited to a course that's held a championship, what's the difference in the golf course pre and post the tournament ?

How did the course get selected to host a tournament (championship) if it wasn't a championship golf course to begin with ?

But to me use of the word championship makes me think of some modern RTJ concoction rather than Pine Valley.

As far as other courses I've seen I wouldn't consider someone to be mentally defective if they were to say TOC or Pebble were better, though I wouldn't agree with them. (Cypress, Royal Melbourne and others I've not seen, but they seem to be in that range as well)

[Anthony Gray]

  The thing about Pine Valley is that the average golfer has never heard of the course. What that says I'm not sure.

  Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci]

The thing about Pine Valley is that the average golfer has never heard of the course. What that says I'm not sure.


Anthony,

Upon what statistic or information do you base the above statement.

I don't know of a golfer that DOESN'T know about Pine Valley.

[Peter Pallotta]

Pat - you make a very good case for variety and 18 unique holes being the measure of greatness.  And both the ranking and your high opinion of the course convince me that it is a legitimate (and maybe even the best) way to measure. All I meant by my first post is that it seems to me only ONE way to measure -- for if it was the ONLY way it would, I think, limit the very concept of greatness. Again - just some theorizing here. I readily admit that the proof is in the pudding.

Peter

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Patrick I'm not going to labor on this. I was unaware that Pine Valley has held the Walker Cup. As such it would meet my definition. However I still say that use of the word championship to describe a course has many negative vibes to me. I've played a decent number of courses that have held major's and from what I can recall only the bottom end of those call themselves championship golf courses. Its just a negative word these days, I think.

Pine Valley is an awesome course though. Its the best I've seen, but like I said, I wouldn't consider someone to be mentally defective if they were to say one of a small handful of courses were slightly better.

[Anthony Gray]

The thing about Pine Valley is that the average golfer has never heard of the course. What that says I'm not sure.


Anthony,

Upon what statistic or information do you base the above statement.

I don't know of a golfer that DOESN'T know about Pine Valley.

  The guys I usually play with Pat. I had a Seminole logo ball and this scratch player had never heard of it. The average golfer doesn't look at the rankings.

  Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick I'm not going to labor on this. I was unaware that Pine Valley has held the Walker Cup. As such it would meet my definition. However I still say that use of the word championship to describe a course has many negative vibes to me. I've played a decent number of courses that have held major's and from what I can recall only the bottom end of those call themselves championship golf courses. Its just a negative word these days, I think.

I guess it's the context in which the word is used.
I think PV also hosted, recently, the GAP Open and maybe a few other GAP tournaments, but, TEPaul would know more about that.

Pine Valley is an awesome course though. Its the best I've seen, but like I said, I wouldn't consider someone to be mentally defective if they were to say one of a small handful of courses were slightly better.

If the small handful of courses could be identified, it would be worthy of discussion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The thing about Pine Valley is that the average golfer has never heard of the course. What that says I'm not sure.


Anthony,

Upon what statistic or information do you base the above statement.

I don't know of a golfer that DOESN'T know about Pine Valley.

The guys I usually play with Pat.
I had a Seminole logo ball and this scratch player had never heard of it.

I think the Chicago Blackhawks have a similar logo.
If a scratch handicap never heard of Seminole, one has to question his literacy.

The average golfer doesn't look at the rankings.


Anthony, they're the one's buying "Golfweek", "Golf Digest" and "Golf" magazines.

I think you've identified or reinforced the difference between people who play golf and "golfers"

[Ulrich Mayring]

I don't know of a golfer that DOESN'T know about Pine Valley.

That may be true for the US, but the rest of the world is completely unaware of this course. I can guarantee you that no one here in Germany has ever heard of it, while a good number of people will know Augusta, Pebble Beach and TOC. As such it is very hard to argue for giving Pine Valley a status that elevates it over any other course, because only a handful of people have ever played it. Same with Augusta, obviously, although TV exposure does provide some insight. In the case of Pine Valley the world at large would have to trust a few knowledgeable people and they may do that for accepting Pine Valley in the upper tier, but with its limited exposure never in a tier of its own.

That is like saying that Vermeer's best painting is one locked up in some Japanese bank vault and only a few experts have seen it and rave about it. Those few lucky souls may between themselves agree on its quality, but the scientific view of Vermeer will be dictated by the accessible paintings.

Ulrich

[Scott Warren]

Ulrich: Same is true down here in Aus. I have a Pine Valley headcover and an Olympic Club headcover. Olympic gets a comment a fortnight, Pine Valley has received one comment ever and it was from a guy who was assistant super at Royal Sydney for seven years.

This myth continues to rear its ugly head:

Augusta National was created to be a championship course without requiring 200-yard forced carries.  Pretty much anyone can get around there, but Pine Valley is unsuitable to a pretty big slice of the golfing population.

The carries from the member tees at Pine Valley are generally about 140 yards over hardpan waste area that is easy enough to play from.

IMO one of the greatest challenges Pine Valley faces on this board is misrepresentation by people who've not played or even visited it saying it's "too tight and overgrown" or "the carries are too much for the average player".

[JC Jones]

The thing about Pine Valley is that the average golfer has never heard of the course. What that says I'm not sure.


Anthony,

Upon what statistic or information do you base the above statement.

I don't know of a golfer that DOESN'T know about Pine Valley.

The guys I usually play with Pat.
I had a Seminole logo ball and this scratch player had never heard of it.

I think the Chicago Blackhawks have a similar logo.
If a scratch handicap never heard of Seminole, one has to question his literacy.

The average golfer doesn't look at the rankings.


Anthony, they're the one's buying "Golfweek", "Golf Digest" and "Golf" magazines.

I think you've identified or reinforced the difference between people who play golf and "golfers"

Pat Mucci,

This is as much east-coast elitist myopia I've seen on this site (which is saying a lot).  Someone can be a golfer without knowing what Pine Valley is; or even caring about the rankings.

[John Kavanaugh]

Ulrich: Same is true down here in Aus. I have a Pine Valley headcover and an Olympic Club headcover. Olympic gets a comment a fortnight, Pine Valley has received one comment ever and it was from a guy who was assistant super at Royal Sydney for seven years.

This myth continues to rear its ugly head:

Augusta National was created to be a championship course without requiring 200-yard forced carries.  Pretty much anyone can get around there, but Pine Valley is unsuitable to a pretty big slice of the golfing population.

The carries from the member tees at Pine Valley are generally about 140 yards over hardpan waste area that is easy enough to play from.

IMO one of the greatest challenges Pine Valley faces on this board is misrepresentation by people who've not played or even visited it saying it's "too tight and overgrown" or "the carries are too much for the average player".

Scott,

If we ever do meet please excuse me if I don't comment on your logo collection, you see, I may assume you are a member and don't want to come off as seeking access.  What is it you are looking for anyway?  Don't you tell stories for a living because the entire possible exchange of head cover lore sounds incredibly boring.   Something like:  Ooh, Pine Vally head cover, nice!  Thanks mate, wanna hear how I played that day or shag my fat sister?  Neither, but tell me about kangaroo gingivitis.  No thanks, just take half my vegemite sandwich and hit before I call the authorities.

[Kalen Braley]

Pat,

Don't worry, Pine Valley isn't alone.

I've run into just as many golfers who don't know what Cypress Point is in addition to never having heard of Pine Valley.

To get thier attention, you have to make it a regular big boy stop...like a Riveria, Pebble, Olympic!

P.S.  These same folks also haven't heard of places like Sand Hills, NGLA, Ballyneal, SFGC, etc.

[Scott Warren]

John,

You're very cute. Of course when you said in that other thread that a course with fans doesn't merit the top 100 I assume you were aware Riviera has fans and lights at its 6th and 7th holes?

In any case, my headcovers are there for me to look at and remember some fine days spend with good friends. I couldn't care less if no one else notices or says a word about them. My point is that when comments are made, it's Olympic that is known because of its tournament history. The very best courses are not necessarily the most well-known.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have seen the lights at Riviera. If they have fans then I shall remove it from my top 100. Thank you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ulrich,

Pine Valley has a good number of International members from Germany, so maybe you're just out of the loop.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC Jones,

You're incorrect.

One can't be a "golfer" and not know what Pine Valley is.

I'm sure that there are many who play golf who don't know what Pine Valley is.

But, this thread is about Pine Valley's collection of 18 incredibly distinctive holes.

I'd venture to say that everyone who plays golf wonders which golf course is the greatest or best.
Some are just more aware of the golfing universe than others.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The golfers I know fall into two categories......Those who have never played Pine Valley and those who think it is the best course they have ever played. To me it is like discussing who is the best baseball player of all time. There is Babe Ruth and then all the other great players. INHO there is Pine Valley and then all of the other great courses which compete for second place. The first time I played PVGC, I remember standing on each tee and exclaiming, "Wow! What a golf hole!". A year later, I could remember every hole in order and every shot I hit. I have not played there in over 10 years and I can visualize every hole in detail. No other course I have played comes close (and I have played most all of the contenders?.

Jim,

That's an interesting comment.

One of the fellows that I was discussing this with essentially made the same comment.

He said that after he had played his first round, he remembered, with specificity, each and every hole and that no other course had had that effect on him.

Part of the reason, I suspect, is because no two holes look remotely the same at PV, whereas most other courses have degrees of simillarity, including ANGC, Shinnecock, CPC and others.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I understand what you're saying, but I think you have to consider that PV was created to be a championship course.

TOC is great, but the topography and distinct uniqueness of every hole at PV is exceptional.

From the tee and DZ not one hole bears the slightest resemblance to any other hole.

Can you say that about TOC ?

Augusta National was created to be a championship course without requiring 200-yard forced carries.  
 
Phil,

Where are the 200 yard forced carries at PV ?
I didn't notice any.

Pretty much anyone can get around there, but Pine Valley is unsuitable to a pretty big slice of the golfing population.

On what basis do you make that comment.

I took an 16 handicap there years ago and he shot the best round of his life.

ANGC is a wonderful golf course, very user friendly, but, each of the holes are nowhere near as distinct in their architecture as the holes at PV.

It's hard to imagine until you see it for yourself.

The use of the topography is brilliant. 

[Kevin Pallier]

Part of the reason, I suspect, is because no two holes look remotely the same at PV, whereas most other courses have degrees of simillarity, including ANGC, Shinnecock, CPC and others.[/b][/size][/color]

Patrick

Which holes at CPC look similar ?

For mine only 12 & 13 perhaps ?

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Patrick I mentioned that I thought TOC and Pebble Beach are not outlandish choices for #1, I don't personally think they are but if someone who had played Pebble, TOC, and Pine Valley an equal number of times I wouldn't consider them to be an idiot if they said any of the three were better than the other two. Tom Doak seems to think TOC is better, so...     

As far as any other courses, I can't really say for certain as I've only seen in passing, on tv and such the other courses that fall into this realm, but I should think the courses that Tom rates a 10 are solid contenders for #1, even if they aren't they're not far off.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin,

I didn't say that the holes looked similar, only that there were degrees of similarity and there is a distinction between the two.
There's certainly a similarity with # 15 and # 16 at CPC.  The holes may be differing lengths but the look has a similarity.

There's no such similarity at PV.

[Scott Warren]

Jamie,

Patrick I mentioned that I thought TOC and Pebble Beach are not outlandish choices for #1, I don't personally think they are but if someone who had played Pebble, TOC, and Pine Valley an equal number of times I wouldn't consider them to be an idiot if they said any of the three were better than the other two.

How many times have you played each of TOC, Pebble Beach and Pine Valley?

[Patrick_Mucci]

\

Patrick I mentioned that I thought TOC and Pebble Beach are not outlandish choices for #1, I don't personally think they are but if someone who had played Pebble, TOC, and Pine Valley an equal number of times I wouldn't consider them to be an idiot if they said any of the three were better than the other two.

I'm very fond of TOC and have championed and defended PB from it's detractors on more than a few occassions.
But, it doesn't have the incredible variety in the individual holes that PV has.
PV doesn't have a weak hole.

Some of PB's detractors claim that # 11, 12 and 13 aren't great holes.
Others say the same about # 15 and # 1.

As to TOC, are the 18th hole and 1st hole that spectacular ?
Is there a similarity in the looks from the tee and DZ ?

Tom Doak seems to think TOC is better, so...   

Tom inserted a caveat.
And, Tom and I don't always agree on everything, not even everything on the east and west ends of Long Island.  

As far as any other courses, I can't really say for certain as I've only seen in passing, on tv and such the other courses that fall into this realm, but I should think the courses that Tom rates a 10 are solid contenders for #1, even if they aren't they're not far off.

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Some of PB's detractors claim that # 11, 12 and 13 aren't great holes.

Personally, I prefer a couple non-great holes over fans at the greens.

Cheers,
Dan King

We think that we shall never see
A tougher course than Pine Valley
Trees and traps wherever we go
And clumps of earth flying through the air
This course was made for you and me,
But only God can make a THREE.
 --Jack McLean and Charlie Yates (members of the British and  American Walker Cup teams, after the 1936 matches)

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