[Jerry Kluger]

Pat: Don't you think that 3 wonderful days at Shinnecock or NGLA might cause you to come to the same conclusion about those venues.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jed,

Fortunately, my driver length is more than adequate to get the ball well into the fairway.

Unfortunately, my irons have been on the weak side and lacking in length, but, I am making progress

Patrick:

Can you reach the fairways from the tee boxes anymore? There are some 200 yard carries out there you know....

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,

Pine Valley is special and I have no problem with it being number one. I am just curious what you think about the alternate greens on holes 8 and 9.
I think it works beautifully on Hole 9 as both green sites seem to be very natural looking. Here is 9:



I think the original 8th green makes for one of the coolest short par 4's in the world, but I found the second green to be a distraction. Wish I took a picture of both greens. What do you think?

[JC Jones]

Does this question assume that no course could ever be built that would be better than Pine Valley?

Is there a certain form of inertia present both in present ranking and exclusivity that would prevent Pine Valley from dropping in the rankings despite a modern course being built that was, architecturally, better?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat: Don't you think that 3 wonderful days at Shinnecock or NGLA might cause you to come to the same conclusion about those venues.

.

Jerry,  I thought about that

NGLA and Shinnecock are exceptional courses and as you know, if I could only play one course for the rest of my life, it would be NGLA.

But, I think # 1 at SHGC and # 9 at NGLA might be the difference.

In addition, there's no hole at PV that looks remotely the same.

Can you say that about SHGC ?  

[John Kavanaugh]

Pat,

Are any of the holes at Pine Valley great because they give you a chance to catch your breath?  Your description of 18 uber-great holes sounds exhausting to me.  Where is the sorbet?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

The second green on # 8 was built for an entirely different reason, namely to take the agronomic stress off the original green

[John Kavanaugh]

Do they use fans to cool the greens at Pine Valley during member play?  I personally don't believe any course that uses fans can be top 100, yet alone #1. 

[JC Jones]

Pat,

Are any of the holes at Pine Valley great because they give you a chance to catch your breath?  Your description of 18 uber-great holes sounds exhausting to me.  Where is the sorbet?

He lays asphalt and speaks of palette cleansers.  Who is this mystery man?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Are any of the holes at Pine Valley great because they give you a chance to catch your breath?  Your description of 18 uber-great holes sounds exhausting to me.  Where is the sorbet?

  JakaB,

Some might categorize # 12 or # 17 in that fashion, but they're both great short holes on their own

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

The second green on # 8 was built for an entirely different reason, namely to take the agronomic stress off the original green

OK, that makes sense. I guess with such small square footage, they need to shift the traffic away from the original green in times of stress and/or heavy play. Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Do they use fans to cool the greens at Pine Valley during member play?  I personally don't believe any course that uses fans can be top 100, yet alone #1. 

 JakaB,

  Yes, they use the fans during play.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

Do you feel the same way about courses with  "sub-air" ?
USGA greens ?
Syringing  ?

[John Kavanaugh]

Do they use fans to cool the greens at Pine Valley during member play?  I personally don't believe any course that uses fans can be top 100, yet alone #1. 

 JakaB,

  Yes, they use the fans during play.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

Do you feel the same way about courses with  "sub-air" ?
USGA greens ?
Syringing  ?

Pat,

Sub-air or USGA greens do not disrupt play or cause one to bastardize the original design by taking drops near the green.  Fans greatly disrupt the social nature of golf that I truly love.  I also think they are an indication of improper design, agronomic choices or tree management.  There are far too many great courses in the world that do not need modern superintendent crutches to stay alive for one that does to be number 1.

[jim_lewis]

The golfers I know fall into two categories......Those who have never played Pine Valley and those who think it is the best course they have ever played. To me it is like discussing who is the best baseball player of all time. There is Babe Ruth and then all the other great players. INHO there is Pine Valley and then all of the other great courses which compete for second place. The first time I played PVGC, I remember standing on each tee and exclaiming, "Wow! What a golf hole!". A year later, I could remember every hole in order and every shot I hit. I have not played there in over 10 years and I can visualize every hole in detail. No other course I have played comes close (and I have played most all of the contenders?.

[Jerry Kluger]

Pat: I have only played these courses once so my knowledge is limited but do you really think when playing Shinnecock that when you come to a particular hole you feel that you played it earlier in the round?

[Jed Peters]

Jed,

Fortunately, my driver length is more than adequate to get the ball well into the fairway.

Unfortunately, my irons have been on the weak side and lacking in length, but, I am making progress

Patrick:

Can you reach the fairways from the tee boxes anymore? There are some 200 yard carries out there you know....

You had plenty of time to remind me of that when you were hitting it out past me.

Your iron play is fine. I'd be more than happy to hit it as "poorly" as you do.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat: I have only played these courses once so my knowledge is limited but do you really think when playing Shinnecock that when you come to a particular hole you feel that you played it earlier in the round?

Jerry,

I don't know if that's the thought process, but, I think, standing on the tee, the golfer gets the impression of similarity.

At Pine Valley, there's not one tee shot, not one approach shot where the golfer has the remotest recollection of a similar situation.
The holes are uniquely distinct, from the tee shot, to the approach to the green.

[Tim Leahy]

Given a choice of one round on Cypress Point or Pine Valley, wouldn't Cypress be the winner a majority of the time?
Even amongst GCA guys?
Do I have a Westcoast bias?

[John Kavanaugh]

Given a choice of one round on Cypress Point or Pine Valley, wouldn't Cypress be the winner a majority of the time?
Even amongst GCA guys?
Do I have a Westcoast bias?

Cypress is more of an internet number 1 while Pine Valley is a publishing number 1. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Given a choice of one round on Cypress Point or Pine Valley, wouldn't Cypress be the winner a majority of the time?
Tim,

Hasn't the consensus been that the 18th hole at CPC is a little weak ?

Even amongst GCA guys?

See my answer above.

Also, are there other holes at CPC that might not be deemed to be exceptional ?

Every hole at PV is exceptional.  There is no weak link in the entire 18

Do I have a Westcoast bias?

YES.

Especially if you've never played PV

I think CPC is a fabulous golf course.

A week ago I ran into a magnificent looking woman in a restaurant in South Beach.
I approached her and her boyfriend and said to the boyfriend, "you're girlfriend isn't pretty...... she's stunning."
I went on to say that I was fascinated by how people looked at her.
Not so much the men, who all had the same thing in mind.
The men all see the assets. in particular or all together and are overwhelmed with desire.
But, the women are looking for flaws.
I told her that all of the woman looking at her had to be very disappointed because she had no visible flaws.
And, so it is with Pine Valley, there just aren't any visible architectural or playing flaws.
And, each hole is so distinct from every other hole, yet, there's a feel of continuity.

[Tim Leahy]

Patrick, doesn't the spectacular beauty of Cypress ocean holes outway any flaws in the other holes? Does Pine Valley stand up to Cypress for overall beauty over design quality?

[Phil Benedict]

Tom Doak,

I understand what you're saying, but I think you have to consider that PV was created to be a championship course.

TOC is great, but the topography and distinct uniqueness of every hole at PV is exceptional.

From the tee and DZ not one hole bears the slightest resemblance to any other hole.

Can you say that about TOC ?

Augusta National was created to be a championship course without requiring 200-yard forced carries.  Pretty much anyone can get around there, but Pine Valley is unsuitable to a pretty big slice of the golfing population.  

[Jerry Kluger]

Patrick: You should at least have said she was on the beach where so much more is real.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, doesn't the spectacular beauty of Cypress ocean holes outway any flaws in the other holes?

NO

Does Pine Valley stand up to Cypress for overall beauty over design quality?

It depends.

Are you going there for a nature walk or to play golf ?

By the way, there are some incredible vistas at PV if you're into that sort of thing.

However, as RLS indicated, the Monterey Bay area is the greatest blend of land and sea on earth

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Patrick, Pine Valley a championship course? Do you write promo material for the RTJ GOLF trail?  But seriously, what "championships" have they held, beyond the Crump Cup? Not taking away from the course, just curious. And it might not be perenially #1 as a matter of course, but it aught to be mighty high, like top 2 or 3.

Jamie,

Prior to typing, you should have researched the intent behind the creation of Pine Valley.

It was crafted for the championship golfer, not the broad spectrum of golfers that every other course was crafted for.

If, in your judgement, PV is # 2 or 3, what course are you placing before it ?

Patrick championship is overused. If a course has not held any events its not "championship" but that's just my opinion. I understand well the intent of the club. But to me use of the word championship makes me think of some modern RTJ concoction rather than Pine Valley.

As far as other courses I've seen I wouldn't consider someone to be mentally defective if they were to say TOC or Pebble were better, though I wouldn't agree with them. (Cypress, Royal Melbourne and others I've not seen, but they seem to be in that range as well)

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